CineForm 64-bit Support in Beta

David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 8:12 AM
We are now opening the 64-bit VfW codec for public testing. This requires a 64-bit OS and a 64-bit Vegas 9 install. It is also recommended that you update one Vegas component to help with smooth playback at sub-resolutions (see the knowledgebase.)

For encoding support you will also need the latest betas for Neo:
Neo 4K -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/Neo4Kv405b214d-090626.zip
Neo HD -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NeoHDv405b214d-090626.zip
Neo Scene -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NeoSceneV132b117g-090626.zip

Install steps:
Install as usual.

Thanks,
David Newman
CTO, CineForm

PS: 6/26/09 Updated all links to the combined Neo + 64bit builds

Comments

TeeTime wrote on 6/18/2009, 10:43 AM
David, what is the basis for the decision to not support 64-bit encode in Neo Scene? It sounds like Cineform is suggesting Vegas 64-bit/Neo Scene users use Vegas 32 bit to create intermediates.

Jerry
Xander wrote on 6/18/2009, 11:03 AM
I installed Vegas 9.0 64-bit edition.
I installed the aviplug.dll patch for Vegas 9 64-bit edition
I unzipped the InstallCFHD64.zip.
I double clicked on installCFHD64.bat (had to select Run as Administrator or it failed)
I rebooted my computer.
I started up Vegas 9.0 64-bit edition.
I clicked on a Cineform AVI file in the Vegas explorer tab.

It reported:
Video: Stream attributes could not be determined, CFHD
Audio: 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, 00:00:11:12, Uncompressed

Basically, I only get audio and no video. This is for every single Cineform avi file on my computer.

I also agree that no encoding seems pointless. I tend to render my master as a Cineform AVI file. If this worked, I would just have to render to uncompressed AVI, load into 32-bit versions of Vegas 8,9, premiere, etc and then re-render as a Cineform AVI. Waste of time and energy having to do the extra step.

[Edit: Windows Vista x64 HP SP2 - 4GB RAM. Had NeoScene V1.3.2 b117 installed prior to double clicking on the .bat file]

[Edit2: From right-clicking and selecting properties:

General
Name: HDV_Tape_04-0023-001.avi
Folder: D:\Cineform\Window Rock
Type: Video for Windows
Size: 834.94 MB (854,976,512 bytes)
Created: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:08:16 AM
Modified: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:09:13 AM
Accessed: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:08:16 AM
Attributes: Archive

Streams
Video: 00:00:48.248, 29.970 fps, 1440x1080x24, CFHD
Audio: 00:00:48.456, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, Uncompressed

ACID information
ACID chunk: no
Stretch chunk: no
Stretch list: no
Stretch info2: no
Beat markers: no
Detected beats: no

Other metadata
Regions/markers: no
Command markers: no

Media manager
Media tags: no

Plug-In
Name: aviplug.dll
Folder: I:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 9.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\aviplug
Format: Video for Windows
Version: Version 1.2 (Build 9786) 64-bit
Company: Sony Creative Software Inc.
]
Laurence wrote on 6/18/2009, 11:35 AM
Neo Scene 64 bit encoding not planned! Can I get my money back?
Barefoot Joe wrote on 6/18/2009, 11:51 AM
I probably speak for a few in the same situation as me. I am a consumer, not a pro, and have a Hi-Def AVCHD camera. I also have SVP 9 64 bit. I have watched the threads about Cineform/XDCAM with interest. As a hobbiest, I may be willing to spring for the price of the Neoscene codec, but I don't think I would buy the HD version, as it cost about as much as my editing program. You may be missing out on quite a few potential customers if Neoscene will not support 64 bit Vegas. But I'm not a marketing person, and not even a customer (yet)!
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 11:59 AM
We rolling into Neo HD and above first, and judging the market. However, we not limiting 64-bit decodes -- Neo Scene will still batch convert and remove pulldown and run fine in 32-bit and 64-bit apps. We just will not be enabling CineForm exports form 64-bit apps in the lowest end tool. So or most users of Neo Scene, it is all good news. They converts their HDV, AVCHD, or 5D sources, editing with them in any tools and output to the target distribution format. If you making CineForm masters or archives form your 64-bit timeline, we consider you more a professional user, and you should be running Neo HD and getting the benefits from higher quality and using First Light. It is always hard to judge features for pro and hobbiest markets, as they do crossover, but we can't start with offering it on the low end then realizing we should have charged more, that is a mistake harder to undo.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 12:05 PM
Xander,

Do you have any other CineForm tools installed? The CFHD64.dll component requires some support DLLs installed with Neo products. I'll add that to may note above.

David
Xander wrote on 6/18/2009, 12:07 PM
I have NeoScene-1.3.2.117-Setup.exe installed currently.
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 12:15 PM
Xander thanks. It is behaving like something is still missing, so here is how to find out what is missing.

Please download the 64bit version of Depends from http://www.dependencywalker.com/

Run that free application. The from the File menu select Open and go to c:\windows\System32 and select CFHD.dll. It will tell you what DLLs might be missing or needed to use the new CFHD.dll on your PC.

David


Xander wrote on 6/18/2009, 12:33 PM
Not sure how you want the output, but the results are:

LIBMMD.DLL - Error opening file. The system cannot find the file specified (2)
IESHIMS.DLL - Error opening file. The system cannot find the file specified (2)
i:\windows\system32\IEFRAME.DLL

Then in the log:

Error: At least one required implicit or forwarded dependency was not found.
Warning: At least one delay-load dependency module was not found.
Warning: At least one module has an unresolved import due to a missing export function in a delay-load dependent module.
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 12:50 PM
You found it, thank you, I think LIBMMD.DLL the main issue (Neo only installs the 32-bit version.) IEFRAME.DLL is missing on a lot of PCs and doesn't seem to hurst.

Here it is http://miscdata.com/cineform/libmmd.zip

Unzip and copy into C:\windows\system32

It should work now.

David

Xander wrote on 6/18/2009, 1:15 PM
I see video in Vegas 64-bit with the libmmd.dll file installed in windows\system32!
Will let you know how testing go.
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 1:52 PM
Xander,

Thank you your reports. Glad to hear it is showing the signs of working normally.
Barefoot Joe wrote on 6/18/2009, 2:36 PM
David...firstly thank you for your timely response! Question...are you saying that you cannot export a project in Cineform from 64 bit Vegas 9, but you can from 32 bit? If that is the case, I guess I don't really understand why. As you know, when you buy Vegas, you get both apps...64 and 32 bit. I have both installed and could edit in 32 bit to be able to export a Cineform project. But again I have to ask why. I am not trying to give you a raft of s..t, I'm just really interested in your product!
Laurence wrote on 6/18/2009, 2:47 PM
What is the resell policy for Neo Scene?
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 2:51 PM
Neo Scene currently includes:

* DirectShow n-way threaded encoder (vey fast) that runs under the Neo Scene (a.k.a. HDlink) conversion tools for capture and conversion of all your camera sources. It does NOT include a stand-alone DirectShow encoder (Neo HD does -- enabling direct support for Intensity and other capture devices.)
* It also includes a Video for Windows 32-bit codec (encoder and decoder.) 90% of users only use the decode function of VfW, using CineForm as an intermediate between the camera format (via Neo Scene) and their NLE, before going to DVD, BluRay or web. The Neo Scene encoder is limited to three quality levels vs the five of Neo HD (two each higher levels.)
* We are thinking of adding the VfW 64-bit decoder, and leaving the 64-bit encoding to higher-end users -- as most will not be impacted at all -- and those that are have additional reason to use Neo HD (which CineForm wants of course.)

We will continue to beef up Neo HD, like with more First Light features to give users reasons to upgrade. Neo Scene is selling very well, just as it is. Once 64-bit is truly mainstream, it will flow to the lowend tools, just as 1920x1080 10-bit encodes did.

David
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 3:05 PM
Laurence,

No idea. Email salesinfo at cineform. But you don't doing a very good job of persuded us otherwise, you were just tell others how we listen to reasonable inquiries -- and we continue to do so. We just testing the waters, like I said we can't put 64-bit encoding out there then take it away, if that is what the market data suggests. So we are beta(ing) 64-bit encoding at the Neo HD level. How would you compromise, get the hobbiest the features they need but keeping the Pro using the high-end tools? Also what would it take to get you (or the hobbiest) into the benefits of Neo HD? We have people using Neo Scene on high-end commercial work, and that hurts us, we need to keep Neo Scene basic with the aspirational upsell. Remember I'm in engineering, I just want to get the 64-bit out there.

David
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 3:34 PM
I just re-uploaded the InstallCFHD64.zip so it no longer needs the libmmd.dll. Making it simpler for new testers.

David
Xander wrote on 6/18/2009, 3:46 PM
Rough edit test:

I dropped 551 Cineform AVI files onto the Vegas timeline. Did this in three batches. This created a 5 hour 11 minute timeline. Not something I would do in real life to be honest.

Thumbnails were set to all and clips ranged in length from 2s to 40m. Took awhile to build the peaks but...

No issues whatsoever. No red frames. Frame rate was 29.97 using Sony"s new fancy auto feature - noticed the slight ramp up until it decided the best settings.

Memory usuage was below 2GB once all audio peaks were built.

So far, so good!
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 3:50 PM
That is some pretty nice testing, thank you.
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 4:09 PM
Here are the betas that enable 64-bit encoding. You still need to install the above 64-bit components, yet these beta enable the encoder license.

Neo 4K -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/Neo4Kv405b214b-090618.zip
Neo HD -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NeoHDv405b214b-090618.zip

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
SuperG wrote on 6/18/2009, 8:35 PM
Somehow, I just *knew* NeoScene users were somehow going to get bit- again. I just had this 'feeling' that Cineform was altogether too entrenched in 'tiered' pricing to the extent that they'd come up with new excuses to devalue your investment.

Anyone with more than two neurons in their brain knows that the major diffetrences between versions of Cineform are compiler constants made to disable features. It's that simple.

I was, apparently, willing to shell out for limited resolution with NeoScene, but a 64bit encode is an excuse to wring more cash as far as Cineform is concerned.

I'm tired of feeling like a red-headed step child good only for taking advantage of.

It's not nice to bankroll support for the high-end guys on the backs of the merely mortal.

So - Lagarith for me - because - I'm not paying - yet again.
TeeTime wrote on 6/18/2009, 9:15 PM
David, thanks for your efforts to keep us abreast of CineForm developments. Perhaps I am just confused by the distinction you make between "intermediates" and "CineForm masters or archives" in your response referenced below. So here is precisely what I wish to do:

1. Load AVCHD into Vegas 9.0 64-bit.
2. Transcode the AVCHD to CineForm intermediate using Vegas 9.0 64-bit.
3. Place the resulting CineForm intermediate files in Vegas 9.0 64-bit, edit, and render to my target(s) with no visible loss in quality.

Will I be able to do the above with NeoScene? If yes, then I may be interested in Neo Scene. If no, then I am probably not interested.

Jerry

We rolling into Neo HD and above first, and judging the market. However, we not limiting 64-bit decodes -- Neo Scene will still batch convert and remove pulldown and run fine in 32-bit and 64-bit apps. We just will not be enabling CineForm exports form 64-bit apps in the lowest end tool. So or most users of Neo Scene, it is all good news. They converts their HDV, AVCHD, or 5D sources, editing with them in any tools and output to the target distribution format. If you making CineForm masters or archives form your 64-bit timeline, we consider you more a professional user, and you should be running Neo HD and getting the benefits from higher quality and using First Light. It is always hard to judge features for pro and hobbiest markets, as they do crossover, but we can't start with offering it on the low end then realizing we should have charged more, that is a mistake harder to undo.
David Newman wrote on 6/18/2009, 9:19 PM
Neo Scene conversion tool complete obseletes 1 & 2. It is faster, works is a native YUV space, and batch converts all your AVCHD, HDV and 5D footage at once (including pulldown removal if needed.) Then you do 3. Yes, Neo Scene enable, and improves your workflow.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
ushere wrote on 6/18/2009, 9:20 PM
outside looking in..... (i use mxf)

why would the average user need to output encoded 64bit cineform?

i understand the need if i / client wants to archive, etc., but for everyday use, surely once you've rendered from the tl to whatever format you need, keeping yet another 'proprietary backup' is rather pointless?

leslie