Yes, I guess I'll give it up ( the Macrovision ). It just seems too much trouble for the dozen or so VHS sales I'll miss. Maybe as someone says, I'll get the organizers of the Recitals and dance schools to send letters talking about illegal reprductions. Maybe I'll raise the fee. Maybe I'll put a crawl over part of the Video that says "THIS DVD (TAPE ) belongs to JOE SMITH" and do a different crawl for each customer. Maybe as someone suggested I get purchasers to pre order, so I can be sure of a minimum order. You know this started out as a fun thing to do and made $500-$900 bucks a pop, but the one a$$ that buys 1 DVD then copies it to VHS for his friends and extended family still irks me. If I knew his brand of DVD player I'd be tempted to give him a bad firmware flash on DVD to disable his Player and cost him some $$ Wait... Maybe I can take a still with my 3.3 meg camera of each performer and include it as part of a personalized package... That might generate interest. What to do... Any thoughts on my thoughts ?

Here's a simple idea. Make each DVD a personal copy.
Just put the clients name on the DVD menu, if it's for a childrens show title it someithing like:
"Jenny Smith's Debut Performance"
If the parents copy it to tape their kids will nag them to death about how come they didn't get the tape of THEIR performance.
Even if that'll not work because it's adults you can just tell from the VHS copy where it came from. The VHS copies I'd have a title that says "Mastered for VHS".

I's also bet none of them would be adept enough to edit he menu out when making the illegal VHS copies.

Get a printer that will print on the inkjet printable DVD's and use this as a disclaimer -
"This DVD was made for _______ any attempt to copy
this DVD will result in the destruction of the carefully coded
bits of information on this disc. If you would like to order your
own personal copy please call ______ at ________.
Thank You"

MKS

The person to blame for this copying to VHS is not quite average intelligence, but will figure out that he can copy the DVD to tape by trial and error with the "this DVD can cause damage" label on the DVD.
I think I will use farss's idea, slightly modified. I usually open with 10 sec of rolling text... The show name, the date, accompanied by , etc. It wouldn't take too long to add " Jenny Smith's Copy to the last roll line. If these people have some class, they will buy VHS tapes without the "owned by" motif. So, if anyone comes across a simple way (with prosumer equipment) to enable a form of macrovision on line 21 keep me in mind. Thanks for the discussion... Steve

It's been posted before (somewhat buried in all the posts above). There isn't going to be an inexpensive way of doing this on the prosumer side of things (if you want to do it at home). Macrovision charges for the use of it's technology, and receives the fees via replication facilities for each disc. Even if you have an authoring application that would allow for adding it on the front end, you ultimately have to have a means of having the disc made--which for the most part is going to be through a replication house. If you are doing high volume, the the added cost is nominal. Low volumes, like you are dealing with, makes it cost prohibitive.

Spruce technologies (before they were gobbled up by Apple) had a variety of authoring apps, with it's higher end apps allowing for CSS and Macrovision. Those apps were designed to burn to DLT and burners (including the Pioneer S201 that created authoring type discs). That Pioneer burner was able to burn the Macrovision bits, but I believe the owner of the authoring app had to pay Macrovision to enable the option legally. Current prosumer apps like Adobe's Encore (and upcoming Ulead's DVDWorkshop 2.0) allow for adding CSS and Macrovision, but only if you output to DLT (for a replication facility). You can't burn CSS keys anyway, and you won't be able to burn the Macrovision bits to recordable media (of any type, AFAIK) by design.

If you can find a version of Spruce's Maestro on Ebay, and a Pioneer S201--then you might be in business. Otherwise, you are going to have to do other things to ensure you are paid up front.

Jim

While copy protection can be defeated you can mark each disc you sell
so you might be able to trace back to the original purchaser with a serial
number. (Provided you are burning your own media and not replicating)

A program such as IFOEDIT could modify certain unused fields with a
unique value. Example: set an unused general purpose register.
Burn the DVD with NERO then change the register to a new value for
the next customer.

You can even do some simple math with this number
to make sure it was not changed and if it has, stop the player.
However if a user knows something has been detected he/she will find
out why and fix it by removing the number check.

Just an idea.

What would be the purpose of that?
And besides that is way over the top for the casual production.
You would have to have INFO edit and know what you are doing
and you would have to modify the VIDEO_TS folder each time you burn a disc.
My last post was more or less a joke to prove the point that MOST of the time trying to make money from dance recitals and such is usually an excercise in futility.

MKS

I think the only way to deal with this is up front. Announce that there has to be a minimum number of sales for you to shoot/burn the concert. If you wanted to be cute you could shoot it, then do a demo tape/disc that has DEMO or something imprinted across the frames, and take orders. Again you insist on a certain minimum before you will sell any. Seems like a hassle, though....

This is from the burning opitions screen described in the manual for Ulead's DVD Workshop 2, just released:

• Include extra folder to disc Select to burn additional files onto the disc.
• Macrovision® copy protection Select to use Macrovision's DVD copy
protection then select the type of protection in the list. This prevents others
from duplicating your disc.
Use of analog copy protection for DVD applications is subject to the proprietary
intellectual property rights of Macrovision Corporation of Santa Clara, California,
U.S.A., and users require a usage agreement with Macrovision Corporation
before analog protection system activation bits are set to on.

I don't know if this is just sloppy menu design, but the implication is that it will put macrovision on DVD-Rs because the program also has a CSS option, but that only shows up on the DLT options dialog.

DVD Workshop is available for download as a trial, perhaps you could try it out and see what happens.

I'm in the process of getting an answer from Ulead on this. Other apps (like I posted before) required contact with Macrovision for activation of the feature, and/or an end license user agreement to put it (Macrovision) on a disc. Those apps in the past used the Pioneer S201 to burn to authoring media. The media cost more (and the burner as well), partly due to licensing issues. Now that general type media is so cheap (and the burners are a fraction of the cost), it is not clear to me how this feature will be implemented (recordable vs DLT; and if on recordables, what it costs for licensing). I'll post back when I get my reply. I called yesterday, but the tech on the phone was not clear on the Macrovision details. He replied today, but was still somewhat vague. His reply did seem to imply that you could burn to disc.

Jim

ULead DVD Workshop 2.... Hmmm I think I will try the evaluation copy and see if it works. If I have to I could give Macrovision 25 cents per DVD :-) .
This is too bad in a way, I'm used to using DVDA and hate the learning curve of other software.

It has some pretty cool features--at least on paper. Playlists, multiple audio and subtitle streams, menu activation of audio/subtitle stream switching, invisible buttons (for easter eggs), auto-activation of buttons, VCD/SVCD authoring, region coding, DVD-9, etc. I think the most helpful features are playlists and complex menu action setting. Hopefully some (all?) could be adopted in DVD-A in it's next update.

Jim

I have to say, I prefer DVD Workshop 1.2 to DVDA overall. The only reason I use DVDA is that I can set chapter points while editing in Vegas and import them into DVDA - in DVD WS I had to reenter them by hand, a cumbersome process involving noting timecode in Vegas, entering it in DVD WS and then scrolling to find the actual chapter break point.

I don't mean to revive an old topic, just thought I'd bring everyone who had some input into this up to date. I downloaded Ulead DVD Workshop (trial) and tried it. Yes , MACROVISION is there and does work!!! CSS is also there but I have no need of it. Well, this would solve the problem I have of small scale video piracy. Its so expensive though. Maybe Sony could integrate it into DVDA. Anyway, I'm going to use it once before the 30 day thing expires, maybe Sony will upgrade by then. Thanks to all....Steve

You will have to contact Macrovision if you are going to use it to arrange for licensing fees.

Jim

I've had conversations with them before about how to implement Macrovision (they said it couldn't be done on my A0-5). I will get in touch with the same guy and mention that it works and how much I would have to pay for 25 DVD's . Just to see what they say, more than anything.

I downloaded and tried the Ulead DVDWS. it doesn't work with AC3 encode files it seems, but it does work with "Dolby Digital" audio. Now the only mention I can see of AC3 is when you import audio you can click on an option if your audio was original in AC3 format....I don't get it. Also supposedly it works with 24p however there is no way to see if it actually is working with 24p...in my test file I encoded in Vegas with the DVD 24p template and in DVDWS it reads as 29.970 upper field first. This doesn't sound right because I was under the impression it was progressive, but aside from that I thought NTSC was lower field first.

Now as for the copy protection - yeah, Macrovision is there when burning to a DVD. You can click on it and think you are doing something but unless you click on the little icon you don't get to read that nothing happens unless you contact Macrovision and license it. Ulead really gives no indication of how this is done, I would guess via some sort of plug-in that turns on those needed userbits. The CSS option is only there if you go out to DLT.

I dunno -still playing, but I am not sure I like it. One thing though if you burn with Nero you don't get the "DVD-Video files reallocation failed" error that you do when creating a project in DVDA.


PS - in searching around I found this from Macrovision:

"The license is a NON COST license, however, if you elect to apply the bits onto any master for your own product or for your customers, you or your customer will need to pay a per disc price for each DVD that is pressed with Macrovision based on volume projected as stated in the price sheet attached."

And if that wasn't confusing enough:
"The Macrovision charges will only apply to professional level replicated discs."

So maybe the macrovision is actually there and working but you only need to pay for it if you sell it and/or professionally duplicate it....????

That's a pretty confusing statement from Macrovision. If you've quoted it correctly then you only have to pay them if the DVD is replicated, that means if it's a duplicated disk then no fee is payable.
So one has to ask why isn't / wasn't that in DVDA.
If I read what's been said before correctly then it only needs a bit turned on to provide protection.
Only reason I've become interested in this is client is asking about copy protection.

Filmy,
The trial version has a number of built in limitations, one of which is ac3 audio import.

As far as the Macrovision thing is concerned, see my post(s) above. I am still waiting to hear from Ulead how one actually goes about using the copy protection scheme. The first individual I talked to had CSS and Macrovision confused. It still has not been confirmed to me by Ulead that one can actually apply Macrovision to a general media type recordable dvd's. In the past, one could apply it to authoring type media and use of the SCSI Pioneer S201 (which was and still is very expensive) burner. The apps that one could do this with (like Spruce's Maestro) I believe required activation of the feature via contact with Macrovision directly. One had to pay fees back then with that burner (Pioneer S201), and I doubt that Macrovision has decided to just let everyone else now do it for free.

Jim

I believe that CSS needs the key area of the disc to be burned and that isn't an option on homebrew DVD. However Macrovision is an adjustment to bits that are simply restricted by consensus/policy on authoring tools. All that is needed is for Macrovision to know they are getting the best deal they can get with you/Sony/Ulead and bingo, you'll be able to help your law abiding customers stay law abiding.

IFOEdit, when bought is said to be able to adjust the bits. This doesn't prevent you from being obliged to pay the Macrovision tax. It also may mean that you are an accomplice to the theft of the IPR that would have been used if you went through the correct channels to get such a tool.

Both CSS and Macrovision are subjects that control the video object sectors. CSS controls the encryption and Macrovision adjusts priveleged bits in the sector "wrapper". They usually go together.

The Pioneer A03 is listed on the web as being able to write sectors with Macrovision. However, due to an ability to do the key handling, the A03 cannot do the CSS part. I suspect that CSS is made impossible by the media itself physically. So no renegade burner BIOS is going to make region coded, or dual layer discs on 4.7GB Verbatim ink-jet printables that I can buy today!

The DVD authoring tool manufacturers will have a job realising how important Macrovision might be as a product value proposition with all the tools they know about that can be used (outside U.S.A.) without being a rocket scientist. The important thing for us videographers, especially corporate and event ones, is that Macrovision can help keep the front door open as making a profit on duplication is barely a feasible business case. The money to run the business has to be put on the main bill. No change from VHS days, but much of the western world is in a struggling economy.

Surely Macrovision could license its SDK like Dolby labs have done for AC3 2.0/5.1? Then assuming some care or trust, they could receive some further monies from Macrovision consumption. Don't they want our money?

I still figure I need to sell 300 DVDs to justify the replication service outlay. Even though this is really gauged to make economic sense at 1000 as I essentially throw away 700 if I haven't struck up a relationship with the replicator over time and many transactions.

>>> Filmy,
The trial version has a number of built in limitations, one of which is ac3 audio import.<<<

I dunno - it comes and goes. I could not import the Vegas rendered AC3 file, which would fit in line with what you said, but than it did work - it was there! Listed under "MPG Audio" was *.mpa, *mp3, *.AC3 and I picked the AC3 audio and low and behold - it worked. I added into my project and DVDWS crashed and I have never been it back as far as import goes. Now on export - it is not in the pre-defined templates but if you choose 'edit' about the only thing you can edit is the audio and 'Dolby Digital' is one of the options. Now to further confuse me - I clicked on the advanced tab and there are options to allow for the creation of a template for 24p, you can choose the pulldown (3-2 or 2-3) and the frame - none, upper, lower. And under audio there are more options including Dolby Digital with a drop down for things like "1/1" "2/0" and so on and even this confuses me a bit because there is no "5.1" but there is a "3/2" which is defined as Left, Center, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround. You can also go into the user bits and set things like progressive frames. Thing is though that I can't seem to get the audio options to stick, they always default to AC3 "2/0". And the progressive/none frame option always goes back to "DV - Upper". Also the imported media, as I said, was done in Vegas as NTSC 24p and rendered using the 24p DVDA template but imports here as upper field first and, I guess, interlaced. Setting the output template to the puldown and such also changes my output file/project size to almost 10 gigs!! keeping "normal/default" dettings has it under 3 gigs and it does not re-render the video, which in theory Vegas already rendered out with pulldown and progressive. I don't get it - lousy demo and/or program I guess because I would hate to pay the amount of money they are asking for it and find all this stuff out after the fact.

But back to the copy protection thing - that post I made before was an exact quote from macrovision. That is is the confusing part - you have software that includes an option to encode macrovision but it says, in affect, Ulead doesn't offer suppport for this feature and you need to contact Macrovision to set the bits. Macrovision in turn says it's a non-pay thing to use it and only when you duplicate the product does money have to flow. Like I said maybe when you sign the "free" agreeement Macrovision sends you a plug-in in order to use it? I suppose the easy way would be to burn a DVD with the option turned on and than try to copy it and see what happens.

P.S - in doing research on the topic I found this, which would go along with what Macrovision has already said - this is from a duplicator:
"With Macrovision copy protection solutions you deal with Macrovision directly (call their rep in your area) and your master would come to us from the authoring house (or yourself) already Macrovision ready. The details can be obtained from Macrovision. Our role is just to report to Macrovision how many were made, that's it."

Now upon some further looking - this is about Ulead and DVDWS -

Response from Ulead -

"Use of analog copy protection for DVD applications is subject to the proprietary
intellectual property rights of Macrovision Corporation of Santa Clara, California,
U.S.A., and users require a usage agreement with Macrovision Corporation
before analog protection system activation bits are set to on. "

Another response from Macrovision, translated into laymans terms -
"you do need to sign a contract with Macrovision which is free. You then pay a per disc charge of $0.66 per disc (pricing for runs under 500 units). When you sign the contract, they apparantly send you some kind of software. "

So the bottom line seems to be that the package includes the *options* to use CSS and/or Macrovision. However Ulead does not use the word *option* in their marketing. At least with Vegas they say "Mix in 5:1 - Encoding AC3 requires extra software." type of thing.

filmy,

This is a list of the limitations of the demo trial:

"This Trial Program has the following limitations:

The Motion Menu feature is limited to 30 seconds.
Maximum of 30 menus for one project.
Maximum of 10 slideshow or video titles for one project.
Maximum of 99 images for one slideshow title.
Maximum of 20 chapter points for one video clip.
No support for Dolby® Digital AC-3 audio files.
No User Guide in PDF format included.
Less content included.
No utilities and drivers included."

I think part of the quirky use of the demo is that fact that some of the features are disabled, although it looks like it's there to be used.

It sounds like to use actually use the Macrovision it will require a process similar to what Maestro (as I posted before) and others before it did.

In the end, Macrovision only stops a user from copying your dvd to VHS. All dvd burning apps will still allow one to make a direct digital copy (because of the lack of CSS encryption keys). Using a TBC a user can circumvent Macrovision for direct dvd to VHS copying, or even the Dazzle Bridge as a pass through. As RBartlett posted above, CSS encryption keys can only be applied at a replication facility. The process has been physically disabled (on purpose) to prevent direct dvd to dvd copying of encrypted discs.

I know there will always be a handful of jerks that will skimp and buy one disc and copy for their 'friends', but routine use of these encryption schemes (IMO) is most likely not going to be done on a large scale by those of us who do low volume work. Weddings and other family events are certainly not going to have 'mass appeal', and one's profit off of these projects is from the work, and not from the mark up on a hand full of discs. Event projects like dance recitals and the like are where you could get burned--offer the dvd/vhs through the event organizers and get a 'head' count up front, and base your pricing on that. Define the minimum you would need to even do the job, and displace the cost on those who purchase the disc/vhs. The more that do buy one, the less per disc. If only 'one' wants one (to then copy for their friends), charge the full amount. If they won't accept that, then I wouldn't get involved with a business arrangement with a group of people who thinks it's OK to rob you.

Jim