As to continue my tangent from another thread, I certainly hope SOMEONE at Sony is taking notes. It seems as though I find a new reason daily as to why I should have gone with another program other than DVDA. But by the lack of their peeps interaction on the baord since the SoFo days, I honestly don't think they're paying that much attention anymore. Used to see a post from someone over there at least every other day it seems. For shame.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

So I uninstalled the demo and than reinstalled - now I have AC3 listed all the time in the audio imort options. Here is the real deal - I don't much care for Ulead but it has been years since I tried anything from them out. All the talk about the newest DVDWS and I thought I would give it it a try. I read the hype and was impressed, looked at the posts here and thought "Why not try it". So AC3 supposed demo limits aside I have to say I don't much care for the program. Points of intrest to me are the AC3 support, the 24p support and the multi audio track and subtitle support. The copy protection scheme certianlly sounds good on 'paper' as well.

So the demo claims it doesn't support AC3 - in my case it has the option of importing and exporting but crashes the program when importing. It is great that Ulead has loyalists that will support the program - "yeah it crashes, that is because it doesn't support it!" But I would say 1> Don't hype it if it doesn't support it 2> Don't enable it if it doesn't support it. The crashing looks worse than just disabling the feature, but either way it defeats the whole idea of a demo if you have the feature that people are interested in disabled.

24p support - again, I don't see this overall. Is it disabled? It doesn't say it is...but I can''t find any pre-built template for it. Nor do I see any pre built templates for surround/dolby digital/5:1 - whatever. You seem to have to create your own templates for any of those. For a 24p project with the pulldown I have tried this over and over again and the settings don't hold. Most of the time I get a pop up saying that you can't create a DVD with those settings...because PAL has to be 25fps, not 24. I am not even working in PAL mode!!! Plus it is really 29.976 with 2-3 pulldown, just the settings ask for the frame rate and pulldown...thusly the 24. Beyond that my Vegas rendered 24p project imports fine except it reads as interlaced, 29.976 with upperfield first. Setting the project/templates frame at "None" only seems to confuse the issue. It also causes the Vegas render to re-render, with the Ulead MPEG codec (The only choice and the only codec listed) and changes the project size from about 3 gigs to over 10 gigs. (??) Again - Ulead has shortcomings, not only in their hype, but also in their demo. And if it does work in the "retail" version why bother to enable this sort of thing in the demo - and in this case I see no mention of 24p support being 'turned off' in the demo. As for the surround - all I know is the fact in front of me - you can create a "new" template to have AC3 audio...but no matter what you choose it will always say "AC3 2/0" after you go back out to the template box. A demo limitation? Why not disable it 100% than? Why hype it but not demo it? Does this *really* work in the full version or does one get the same results?

Multi track audio seems to work, but I get a lot of crashing - so it is hard to say. Is this another demo limitation? On the menu side I select audio and import it but nothing happpens. Another demo limitation? Maybe every single issue can just be blamed on the demo - "Sure the program seems to suck, but really it is just the demo limitations!" Subtitle support looks ok, but I tell you right now for all of the above issues it is really a null point because the price just doesn't fit the results. I can get an awesome freeware subtitle program in the form of Subtitle Workshop so I certianlly have no need for an authoring program that doesn't fit my needs for anyting other than that.

And the whole copy protection offerings are clearly misleading...and certianly this is of intrest to more and more people because more and more people are DIY types. Celarly they don't say this feature is disabled in the demo but also they clearly don't say that in order to use the feature in *any* version you need to sign an agreement with Macrovision and pay for any duplication of said product once put on the market. Sure it says this if you click an icon when you already have the product and are in the final burn/finish stages...but really, lets all drive our cars into trees only to have the manufacturer say "Well we never said the airbag was enabled. We only said the car had an airbag. You need to go to the manufacturer and have them enable it after you sign a waiver that you won't drive into a tree." Silly but you get my point. Maybe this is all really just 'producers knobs' for DVD authoring.

When it says the demo won't support AC3, that's probably because of licensing issues with Dolby. Even if the demo won't reliably import .ac3 or encode to ac3, it may still handle mpeg2 video streams that have ac3 muxed with the video - that was the case with DVD WS 1.2.

filmy - does your post mean that you tried to burn a disk with macrovision protection but that when you tried to copy it to VHS the macrovision protection didn't seem to be working? Or what?

Tnanks

I guess I just don't get your point, and should probably leave it at that. What they probably should do is not offer a demo at all. DVD-A's demo wasn't fully functioning either (ac3 included), and I had it crash my system. Because it was so cheap to get with Vegas with it's original launch, I took the leap anyway. I'm hardly a Ulead loyalist, I only have DVDWS LE (came bundled with my Canopus software), and have never loaded the app. I have tried the demo however, and come away with a different impression than you did. It never crashed, but perhaps it's because I didn't try to make it do something it can't. Complaining about a 'buggy' demo that crashes when you import and use ac3 (which the download page clearly states it doesn't support), seems a bit odd. I guess Ulead's fault here is they didn't give you a warning or just greyed out the option. Try wave files and it works just fine.

1. 24p support: just import and use the file and don't change any of the settings. It will be 'seen' by the authoring app as 29.97, but flags in the header will be seen correctly by the player. You're trying too hard to use it.

2. Importing multiple (non-supported) ac3 files will result in it crashing--period. No brainer here. Because wave files are so large (bandwidth wise), you will have a hard time using multiple wave streams unless the video max is set pretty low, but you can do it.

3. As far as the 5.1 and 2 channel are concerned, DVDWS (full retail) only has a 2 channel encoder. I don't see how a template to convert your audio to 5.1 can be created, if such an encoder doesn't exist. The program does support 5.1 imports, and you just associated the audio with the video it goes with--no template needed.

4. In regards to Macrovision; DVD Studio Pro, Maestro, Scenarist, Adobe Encore, etc all have the option available. None of them tell you what is required to use the feature until after you buy it. Ulead, for better or worse, is just following in the steps of those that came before. Copy protection is a 'pro' level feature that is now making it's way into prosumer apps. 'Pro's' have known for a long time that to use copyrighted protection schemes it was going to cost something. I called Macrovision today, and the answer they gave was that the only way one can add this feature is via DLT--not by burning to general media. They get their reimbursement back from the replication facility as a per disc charge (like CSS). I was under the impression that one could do this via recordable's, but apparently not. The bits are in a section of the disc that our burners will overwrite or disable--even if you think it has been added to the disc when building/burning your project.

I find the option to switch audio or subtitle channels with menu buttons a nice feature, the playlist allows for very complex disc creations and end actions, forced first play, slideshow transitions, copy protection, dual layer support (which hopefully will include the ability to interface with the new dual layer burners to be coming out shortly), etc to be light years ahead of anything else in it's price range on the PC side of things. Since I have DVDWS LE, I can upgrade for only $299 (which costs me less than the chance I took with DVD-A, AND I don't have to buy another NLE just to get it). I hope it's not too buggy, but the rich feature set is worth the risk.

As an aside, I find it curious that an avid SF and Vegas supporter--who was praising the integration of Vegas and DVD-A (and teaching users with the VAAST tour), has essentially moved over to DVDWS. I hope that isn't a bad omen or reflection on DVD-A's future.

Jim

Well, it seems like this topic is off and running again so.... DVDWS 2 does have the ability to encode a working macrovision signal when burning with my Pioneer AO-5. I tested it, it does indeed function. On a waveform monitor I can see the bits on line 21(?) going up and down from either my cheap home DVD player, or my semi pro Sony. If I plug the signal into either my Mitsubishi, Panasonic, or Sylvania VCRs the played back video is..... UCK. Just like Macrovision is supossed to do COPY PROTECT the DVD.
CSS? no idea. I don't need it. The only people I'm trying to foil are the 1 or 2 who buy a Choral Society or Music Recital DVD from me (I sell 20 or so DVDs and 40 or so VHS's) then copy it with a DVD player onto VHS for 10-15 friends so they don't have to pay my $16 VHS charge. I'm going to stop my couple of hundred $ loss with Macrovision. I'm waiting for an email answer about $$$ from Macrovision now . So, I don't need CSS, I Can't stop the possibility of someone using a DeCSS program on a computer to beat me... I can't see why they'd bother ( or have the smarts, or a video out Video Card ). All I wanted to do was stop casual copying and now I can. I burnt a Master (for my DVD duplication) last night. After I hear from Macrovision I'll do 25 copies. AC-3.... I haven't tried. I use AC-3 in DVDA only when its a big project and I'm pushing disk space so it may not be a big concern for me. So, I like the create menu system in DVDWS, I made a very nice looking menu with it on the weekend. Macrovision works, HEY, does anyone know if when you play a Macrovisioned DVD back on a computer , does the video output signal on an S-Video connector on your Video card contain the Macrovision signal? Just Curious. ONE thing I noticed... DVDWS can't do is make a PAL DVD from an .AVI file (recorded from an NTSC 29.97 fps source). It says it can, even does it but anything moving in the scene has very wavy edges on it. Almost to the point of un-watchable with lots of action. I used my good old DVDA to transcode the AVI file to PAL and burn it to a DVD. It looked great. Thats for the 3 people that wanted DVD's to send to English friends. Well, I'm going to keep playing with DVDWS until its trial runs out and if it keeps looking this good for me I'll scpape up the $ for it. Maybe I'll buy DVDWS lite from a friend then just pay the upgrade. Maybe Sony will read this and make some changes... Maybe I'll see newsreel footage of the Titanic sailing triumphantly into NY harbour :-) Steve

We don't have to get each other, that's the beauty to it all. :) But let me try to over explain things and directly respond.

>>>Complaining about a 'buggy' demo that crashes when you import and use ac3 (which the download page clearly states it doesn't support), seems a bit odd. I guess Ulead's fault here is they didn't give you a warning or just greyed out the option. Try wave files and it works just fine.<<<

No, it crashes when doing other things as well...not just an AC3 issue. You don't see my point because you are hung up on the fact your demo doesn't do what my demo does and they both, I am guessing, were downloaded from the Ulead site. Mine was anyway. My main point(s) are that why in the heck would Ulead have something that isn't supported enabled? They tell you clearly it supports 5:1 / AC3 and tell you to download the demo - but then tell you it won't demo *that* part of it...but when you get the demo up and running it allows you to to still import AC3 audio, as well as deifine the output settings for AC3 as well. What part of that don't you get? In my demo you go to the import audio section - look under MPG audio and you will see 3 choices - mpa, mp3 and ac3. Well - it is there, so I try it - the AC3 audio plays when you "preview" and imports into the project. But you don't get it. You say that is why it crashes at that point, but I say why allow anyone to *get* to that point. But that is ok because, by god, I will be such a rebel and try the enabled features in software demos!! If they don't want people to try these things don't demo them or don't enable them!

>>>1. 24p support: just import and use the file and don't change any of the settings. It will be 'seen' by the authoring app as 29.97, but flags in the header will be seen correctly by the player. You're trying too hard to use it.<<<

So than Vegas encodes an NTSC 24p project, using the DVDA 24p template, to 29.976 interlaced with upper field first? Just asking because this is what DVDWS thinks it is. I don't think that is correct, but if you say it is I should allow that as fact? No, I want 2nd and 3rd opinions please. I would think it sould say, at the least, it has 2-3 pulldown or the fileds are either "none" or "lower", but certianly not "upper".

>>>2. Importing multiple (non-supported) ac3 files will result in it crashing--period. No brainer here. Because wave files are so large (bandwidth wise), you will have a hard time using multiple wave streams unless the video max is set pretty low, but you can do it.<<<

Thanks for that info. I had not tried to import "multiple (non-supported) ac3 files", matter of fact I have not tried to import any more than one (supported) AC3 file into the project. ( I say supported because DVDWS says it supports AC3. The demo even though it does allow for AC3 import, well that is another story...clearly) I have tried importing several wav files and also tried some of the Ulead included mpa files however and get the crash. You seem to have already tried importing several AC3 files so I won't have to do that.

>>>3. As far as the 5.1 and 2 channel are concerned, DVDWS (full retail) only has a 2 channel encoder. I don't see how a template to convert your audio to 5.1 can be created, if such an encoder doesn't exist. The program does support 5.1 imports, and you just associated the audio with the video it goes with--no template needed.<<<

I want to be clear - first in order to "output" 5:1 you need a program that supports it. In this case DVDWS claims to be an authoring program that supports 5:1. So the logical extension here would be that you create a DVD with 5:1 audio and you save it, and create a final DVD with it - usng DVDWS. But what you are saying is that " DVDWS (full retail) only has a 2 channel encoder " and that "such an encoder doesn't exist" thusly DVDWS does not do 5:1 DVD, only basic stereo DVD? Ok, again - very misleading hype about the prgram than. But to be fair, I would like a 2nd and 3rd opinion on the matter. DVDWS will not output any more than a stereo (2 channel) DVD? If not than why are there options to create a DVD that has up to "3/2" Dolby Digital audio? (From my other post - defined as Left, Center, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround. This is in the settings in DVDWS - but from what JSWTS is saying this is not really what it does, not a limitation of the demo but a limitation of the actual software.)

>>>4. In regards to Macrovision; [SNIP] I was under the impression that one could do this via recordable's, but apparently not. The bits are in a section of the disc that our burners will overwrite or disable--even if you think it has been added to the disc when building/burning your project.<<<

Could be. Encore is my next test . Not because of the macrovision but because I am looking at somehting better than DVDA, and DVDWS isn't going to be it. Most of what you said is what I said anyway - that more people are now DIY in *all* areas and this include authoring, and even self-distributing. Clearly software is showing this by the features they include - look at what Screenblast Movie Studio and Studio 9 offer as an example for low cost DIY programs. The ability to author in regions and some form of copy protection makes sense following that market. In the past you, the distributor, had to pay the duplicator to have macrovision added to your product. Now, as is the case with why this whole thread popped up, software is out there that *implys* that you - the creator and author - can impliment this your self. I still find it misleading, Uleads anyway. I can't say one way or the other about the other software you mention. As for your call to Macrovision - did they have any 'on the record' comment about Ulead? Because if they told you Macrovision was only available on output to DLT than clearly the way DVDWS has their copy protection options set up is wrong. Beyond that , somewhere, there is press about Macrovision supporting DVD recordables. Having said all of this I also am starting to think that "macrovision" is becoming more of a name - as in "We use an Avid to edit", "They drive a Ford" or "We shot on DV". Most people, including yourself, are quick to jump on the old use of Macrovision - to prevent taping to tape. But here is something direct from Macrovision:

With more than 200 million discs protected, Macrovision provides the industry’s most successful and widely used copy protection solution for PC-based CD/DVD-ROMs.

Notice the use of "macrovision" through out, no mention of the actual *type* of protection. So can macrovision be used on DVD recordables? Clearly yes it can. So maybe what Ulead has is not "macrovision" in the sense most people think it is. Maybe it is a combination of things - burn your project to DVD and it uses "Safedisk" or something. I don't know, but there does seem to be a big need for clarifcation from all involved. A quick search around the internet block shows that others have the same question about DVDWS and macrovision.

Well...now I'm really confused. I talked directly with someone at Macrovision today in the dvd/vhs division and they implied you couldn't do what you did. With my luck, it was probably some low level person, but it's good to hear you were able to do it. I would be interested in hearing back what they tell you it would cost per disc.

As far as making discs for your friends in England, PAL players and TV's for the most part support playback of NTSC discs--so maybe you could save a step. Unfortunately the converse (PAL on NTSC player) is not true. Although my Apex players do just fine with discs I get from my friends overseas.

Jim

I won't rehash it all, but perhaps you could tell me (other than DVD-A and Apple's A-Pack with DVD Studio Pro) which authoring apps (that support 5.1 stereo) universally include an encoder for such files? Scenarist doesn't (within the app itself), you have to buy a several thousand dollar hardware encoder (on top of the software authoring app) to get it. Adobe's Encore doesn't (you have to purchase the 5.1 plug-in from Surcode to get it, and it works within Premiere). Maestro doesn't, you have to have the separate encoder if you want it. ReelDVD supports it, but again, no encoder. One of the nice selling points of DVD-A was the fact it (somewhat uniquely) had a 5.1 encoder. However, I think that is somewhat misleading by itself. One can certainly take a wave or mpa file and encode it to 5.1, but it really is only a stereo file re-encoded without taking true advantage of surround sound. If you re-mix it in Acid or Vegas perhaps, but not from within DVD-A. To be clear, DVDWS does indeed output 5.1 SS discs, you have to create/mix your files outside of the app (like all those I posted above) and import them in. It won't re-encode them to 2 channel.

Check stephano's post below--much to my surprise, apparently he was able to get Macrovision to work with the demo. I'm curious as to the reply he hopefully gets from Macrovision as to the fees.

If you want a second and third opinion, try Ulead's site, since not many here are using it. If you don't want to use it/buy it--it's obviously your choice. I plan on getting it, and hopefully not have glitches. If I do, I don't have a problem letting others know so they can avoid buying a dog. IMO staunch supporters to a brand name too often let their allegiance get in the way of making objective evaluations of products. DVD-A is an example (again, IMO) of that. I had great hopes for the product, and was one of the first to buy it. Since then three major competitor's have come out with apps in DVD-A's price range (with more robust feature offerings)--DVDWS-2, Adobe's Encore, and Apple's DVDStudioPro2. The product has been stagnant for some time, with no hint of the future. Encore and DVDWS-2 had press releases about their upcoming launch (DVD-A did as well before it came out) weeks and months out. With not a single whisper in regards to DVD-A, I guess I'm not holding my breath. I bought Pinnacle's Impression Pro 3 years ago, with all the hope that I had when I first bought DVD-A. Alas, Impression Pro is on it's last leg.

Jim

>>>which authoring apps (that support 5.1 stereo) universally include an encoder for such files? <<<

I can not tell you off the top of my head. However for SoFo I use the optional AC3 encoder to encode, and I do it from Vegas. I don't recall saying I wanted to use DVDWS to *encode* raw audio files. As I undertsnad it based on the manual the DVD project is based on it's template. Thusly you would select, say, a template with a 5:1 setting is there was one. There doesn't seem to be one, thusly I did the logical thing - I went in to see if I could create one. Now - again, based on what you said before DVDWS will *not* output any projects with 5:1 because it does not have the ability to. You said that, not me. But when I point out how strange that sounds you come back with another direction - implying that I want to actually do a 5:1 mix with DVDWS and than encode that mix. And to end you say: "To be clear, DVDWS does indeed output 5.1 SS discs, you have to create/mix your files outside of the app (like all those I posted above) and import them in. It won't re-encode them to 2 channel." So which is it? DVDWS does not do it...or DVDWS does do it? You have said both and I never said I was trying to encode Dolby Digital...only import and output a project that way. I have never thought of any authoring program as a DAW or a NLE, but I know that many people want an all in one package. You seem to have thought I was one of those people and that is why you were telling me that DVDWS could not create a DVD with 5:1...am I correct in that?

Having said that - just clear somehting up, on the Ulead site it does say you can re-enocde files, audio or otherwise, by choosing a template and checking the 'conform to template' (or whatever it is called) option. One of the little selling points is that you can mix and match media formats ahve it all come out the same, based on the chosen template. Does it output AC3? I have no idea...based on the overall break down of what Ulead says DVDWS does I would think yes. Based on what you say - well, either "yes, but only 2/0" or "yes, but only if you already have the projects audio done".

I have checked Uleads site - where do you think I got the macrovision information from? Also they just put up tutorials today which I am going to look at it to see if they uncover anything.

I did read stephano320's post...and this goes along with what I have read on other forums. But it also adds to the confusion because, as you pointed out, someone from Macrovision told you this could not be done.

Moral to this - Sony if you are reading all of this - whatever the future of DVDA you do just be 100% clear in what DVDA will or won't do, and if you have a feature implimented make sure it actually does something in the Demo. If you are going to hype some feature make sure that hyped feature can be demoed.

"just be 100% clear in what DVDA will or won't do, and if you have a feature implimented make sure it actually does something in the Demo. If you are going to hype some feature make sure that hyped feature can be demoed. "

Good suggestion Filmy.

Boy, this thread really has veered off topic. I guess I don't understand your question...if there is one in there. You can use a template, or not--it's your choice. Selecting a 'template' doesn't lock you into any specific audio stream. You do have to choose between NTSC and PAL. You can use any compliant audio stream (with the exception of DTS) with DVDWS. Because DVDWS creates multiple title sets, you are not limited to a single audio type occupying the first stream position. Why would one have a audio based, template driven project, unless you wanted all of your audio streams to match? For first play, your intro logo/whatever could have a simple 2 channel ac3 file, and your video's could be a variety of audio--both 2 ch ac3 and 5.1. I just don't see a need, or limitation for that matter, in not having a template for 5.1 only. Nothing stops you from using those audio files at any time. The ac3 template will convert everything to 2 channel dolby. DVD-A essentially does the same thing(with the exception that it will do 5.1). If you want all the audios to match, you have your choice of 2 channel ac3 at 192 kbps, or 5.1 at 448 kbps. You don't have any other option to override or change these fixed parameters.

DVDWS accepts and outputs (without altering) compliant files (including 5.1 ac3). DVDWS just can't create 5.1 files. If you want to author a disc with 5.1 in DVDWS, you have to encode the files first, and bring in the asset after that. I have since upgraded my LE version, and it accepts 5.1 just fine. My point on the other apps is that none of them have 'template' driven audio projects, and none of them include a 5.1 encoder native to the authoring application. DVDWS is no different in this regards, and the website clearly states what it can and can't do with ac3 audio.

I'm just as confused/surprised with stephano's in vivo test with Macrovision based on my phone call earlier today. Here's the phone number if you'd like a try at calling them yourself: +1 (408) 743-8600

If I was Sony, I wouldn't offer a demo--too many might react in a similar way and jump to conclusions about the viability of the actual product. I trialed DVD-A when it was a 'beta' release demo. The 'beta' demo was present for a while for all those who wanted to 'try' DVD-A before buying. It had limitations and bugs, but it was what it was--A DEMO. I'd rather see a software company spend their time making the actual app work properly, than to make sure a demo is 'fully' functional, or 'bug' free (with functions disabled). Just my opinion.

Jim

You are kidding, right? Or perhaps you are forgetting DVD-A's demo release? Ac3 was disabled in the demo as well. 16:9 aspect ratios caused DVD-A to re-encode, there was little to no documentation that program streams had to be used for it to work properly (many of us had a ton of pre-encoded elementary streams), project size miscalculations, etc. Some of these crept into the actual release (and work arounds have been posted or the software since patched). Offering a demo stand alone authoring app that ultimately could only be purchased if bought as a bundle (with Vegas) is a bit misleading as well (especially if one only scans the info provided on the website before using).

Getting DVD-A (full retail) to work on everyone's system without a glitch has been/is impossible. To expect a demo to work on eveyone's system without a problem is a farce. I didn't have a problem with DVDWS myself, and didn't try to use a file type that clearly wasn't supported. Give me a break.

Jim

>>> You are kidding, right?<<<

Who me?
I think that with any product someone comes up with who it is aimed at and they market it that way. You learn, hopefully, from the past. SoFo came up with some awesome ideas and products - and for the most part they have evolved. I think the trend would be to take a product like DVDA and work on it to improve what it already has and add on what it doesn't. This thread, and others like it, talk about other programs and what they have vs what the SoFo products have. It is a smart thing to listen to what people have to say, not only about your product, but about theirs. I have heard that Sony is going to change how it markets some of the SoFo stuff, at least in the wording anyway. Now if someone suggests to not hype something the product can't do why is that a joke? Or suggesting that if DVDA were to include macrovision they better explain it than Ulead does? Or that if they offer a demo where one of the main selling points that is hyped is disabled that is not a good thing?

The post was for SonyEPM. I can't post anything without it being misconstrued.

Jim

Computer outputs, at least where the hardware is manufacturered in or imported into USA, are obliged to be capable of doing at least APS level 1. By what mechanism and how much a violation would cost, I don't know. It also has to be enabled and proven to be working. Just like set top box hacks (hard and soft) there are soft hacks for many TV-out cards that ignore the macrovision trigger bits that the front end of the PC has read. _it_is_an_illegal_act to circumvent macrovision. If your country has a macrovision sales office in the same town as your heads of state. Chances are it is illegal where you live too. I make no slur in that as they are a business that aims to protect the creators of commercial art.


I suspect that a pre 1985 VCR, or a duplication VCR (from ebay) would also allow you to record macrovision signalling onto VHS to protect those $16 tapes from the casual copier. Maybe have Macrovision quote you for DVD and VHS protection. I suspect DVDWS and the others only trigger APS level 1 (sync pulse error scrambling) and not the colour stripe levels.

IFOEdit 0.96 beta ($5 paypal) will process your VOBs to add level 1. Doing so is illegal (if it in fact works) as this technique is protected. Also, there is no red carpet to Macrovisions door to see how much per disc licensing will cost. That is a pity. A DVD writer in either DVD-Video or DVD-ROM book types isn't going to look for these bits. The sectors might be a problem, but I suspect that Microsoft or Ahead would be the first show stopper before any drive inhibit. I suspect there is non-such as the press have covered the Pioneer range as being OK for macrovision trigger bits on VOB sectors and navigational elements.
Check the legalities before you do anything. The software makers aren't responsible for what you do even if they do provide the tools (seemingly in the demo of DVDWS2). IFOEdit's author now works for 321studios who have legal action against them for violating legislation that protects Macrovision from removal or addition from shiny discs. Maybe he needs those $5 right now(!), but perhaps funding crime isn't the best move!

Macrovision should team up with Ahead Nero to enable this mode post the file creation in the authoring tool of your choice. A bit of IPR to share and some per-disc revenue. How many million DVD writers out there? How many with media that is right to be protected as best possible? 66 cents per disc in quantities <500 seems to be what the "replicators" pass on to their clients.

The contacts at Macrovision would probably be the most accurate if they did let you speak to their lower level (ie low salaried but technical) staff. They probably know about these subtle but important possibilities, whilst the suits and customer services probably don't. Remember Macrovision has been globalised, it isn't necessarily as autonomous as we find our Madison friends.

Let us hope that Macrovision give Sony the break by permitting usage (through a contract between Sony and Macrovision and not us with Macrovision) and then some scheme where if we make a profit on our work, that we pay maybe the 66cents per disc sold. I'd hate to pay for discs authored whilst I like to use Nero to burn and do anticipate the odd coaster, by virtue of mishandling the ink-jet part I use more than the DVDR burn itself.

Using DVTool 0.53 I'm able to see that DVDWS Demo creates hard disc files that hold macrovision trigger bits on the sectors. Leaving only the check that any of Nero, DVDWS or even DVDA can burn these files to DVDR and confirm they are carried over and work ok in the real world. I suppose as long as I destroy these demo discs, neither Ulead or I am likely to upset the Macrovision folks. I certainly wouldn't attempt to gain the benefit from selling them.

Thinking about what Macrovision's statement on DLT-only is based upon. Some set top boxes might only honour the APS 1 if the CGMS/A (line 21 NTSC, added to WideScreenSignal PAL) has been activated on CSS protected media. I don't think this is the correct interpretation if such techniques do exist. The CGMS/A and APS levels 1,2,3 should all be complimentary. (I think that covers most things other than watermarking, a technique that probably has even less correct player adoption than valid APS and CGMS).

Whilst I'm making a bit of a thing about the legality of even downloading circumvention capable tools. I feel it worth mentioning that http://www.musclesoft.de/combatman/sindex.html is about the only tool I can find that actually tells you if your VOB/IFO have their macrovision trigger bits set. Version 0.53 can be tried for free. It claims to supports file and disc analysis. I'll perhaps check the DVDWS file output later to see if that claim is right. (Saves having to rig up your macrovision forcing playback deck to your macrovision detecting recording deck, just to see some broken video.) It is a shame that there isn't a more honourable tool to validate a discs security. I couldn't google one up myself though. I suspect this is another dvd-decrypter variant that someone wants to make their fortune on the back of. _illegal_ to download in USA (etc) if it has deCSS code in it, bewarned.

Well this is my answer from macrovision word for word...

"Thank you for your interest in Macrovision's copy protection technology. We have been receiving calls left and right from customers who have bought the ULead product. Unfortunately, things haven't changed. Macrovision still requires a DLT and replication. Because of the nature of the copy protection technology, there is not a product that is compatible with DVD-Rs and burning. Macrovision will always require a DLT and replication. If you would like to use Macrovision, I would suggest you contact one of the Macrovision licensed facilities."

I wrote them 10 minutes ago assuring them that it worked on my Pioneer a05 burner and I need it, so sell it to me . I also said if you are so sure it won't work does that mean I can use it free because it can't work?

Don't touch that dial... I'm sure DVDA will embrace Macrovision in the next iteration, this will be educational. Steve C

I'm kind of taken aback by all the hubris over this topic. Has anyone here been out in the real world lately?
What earthly use is CCS and Macrovision when the PC mags are giving away free the tools to bypass them?
I'm not talking about something that you need a degree in computer science to get to work, I'm talking Start program, insert DVD, wait while it does a billion calculations, insert blank CD and burn a good quality DivX version to media costing a dime. Then insert CD into set top DivX player.
Oh, sorry I forgot to mention the VERY small print warning that it might be illegal to actually do that, wow, that'll stop em for sure.

And I'm expected to tell my client for the princely sum of 66 cents on top of DVD that'll cost $1.00 to press he can add quite useless copy protection? Now he's no fool, even if the copy protection did work he'd need to have 30% of his potential customers ripping the video off before he's ahead.

I have no sympathy for piracy but I'm starting to wonder just whose ripping who off on this copy protection deal.

And speaking of the legalities of DVDs, anyone know if the Chinese have paid the royalties owed to the DVD Forum?

Did everyone get to read my last message including the QUOTE from Macrovision ? I'll pass along any further communication from them. And farss, if you've read my earlier posts, I'm just a one man show making maybe $ 1k or so a month doing videos for local artists and the occasional wedding. I realize a lot of time is being spent here but hey, one guy copying a DVD to 10 tapes for friends costs me a fair chunk of my profit. These low level pirates don't even know how to do anything but play games with a computer, so to me a super simple way of copy protecting my skill and the performers art is worth me absorbing the 66 cents each for the average 15 - 20 DVDs I sell. I'm not looking for a way to copy protect VHS tapes, if anyone wants a VHS - VHS illegal dub (bad quality) they can go ahead. So, its my time well spent in this forum. Steve

This is in line with the information I got directly from Macrovision when I called them. CSS doesn't charge for the use of applying encryption keys to your DLT master, because they know they will get paid when the project is replicated. The same apparently is true regarding Macrovision.

My bet is that Macrovision and CSS won't be seen anytime soon at the recordable disc level of business. There wouldn't be a way to police the use of the copyrighted protection schemes, other than by the users word of honor. Unfortunately, just as there are unscrupulous customers who will copy your disc, I'm sure there will be dvd content creator's who would just 'forget' to pay the appropriate user fees. Copy protection schemes make some sense for mass production, because the added cost can be distributed over a large volume. There are a whole host of ways to circumvent copy protection schemes, but for the a large portion of the population, this just isn't an issue. The casual user (which represents the majority) will be deterred from copying. As far as low volume work is concerned, copy protection would be very costly with current technologies.

Jim

Steve,
believe me I understand your issues only too well and I wasn't really ahving a shot at the people here, more at Macrovision. I wouldn't assume that you're clients are as illiterate as you think, well ,aybe they are but I bet they know 'some kid down the street' who'll be only too happy to 'crack' your copy protection for them.

My point was that these days they don't even have to worry about the cost of a blank VHS tape nor the time it takes to dub the DVD to tape. Once a DVD is ripped it's less than ten minutes to make another copy and the costs is about 20 cents per copy.

As to what you can do about, I don't know, it's a very difficult call. Probably these people don't even know how wrong what they're doing is, maybe that's the problem. Perhaps they think what they pay you for each copy only covers the cost of you making that copy, so by them making it for you they may think they're actually doing you a favour. This is sort of a problem I've faced as you move from doing something for a hobby to doing it as a business. Do these people understand that selling each copy is how you recover your costs, that you're not shooting the event just for fun?

Received another email from Macrovision. They now think it may be possible to burn Macrovision bits with a home DVD recorder. They would like me to burn one and send it to them so that they can test it on a variety of DVD players. If it works, they could grant me a license to use Macrovision. S.