Device to limit peaks during recording?

Comments

Red Prince wrote on 8/16/2018, 9:15 AM

my audio is being fed from a mixer's main outs (a microphone (not singing, just talking/teaching) and a guitar) into the camera's XLR inputs.

That’s probably the cause of your problem. A camera is a video recording device, and its XLR inputs are an afterthought. It is engineered to use its best circuitry for video, and the audio circuitry is engineered not to add much to the overall cost of the camera.

You should be recording to an audio recorder, preferably multitrack, and use time code to sync the audio with the video.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

rraud wrote on 8/16/2018, 10:59 AM

The DBX 166 'peak stop' is basically independent or you could set the compression sections ratio to 1:1.. no gain reduction.

There are lots of cheap (free) and easy limiters and and volume maximizer plug-ins available, For instance, the free 'LoudMax Look-Ahead Brickwall Loudness Maximizer' is highly regarded, with only two parameters to set, threshold and output. The Waves OneKnob Louder is currently on-sale for $29 (usd) which uses "a combination of peak limiting and low-level compression with automatic makeup, Louder effectively makes tracks louder, increasing RMS by up to 24 dB." Though IMO, Wave Audio's product licensing authorization system is a pain, especially if you work on more than one computer. Then there's the venerable 'WaveHammer' included with Sound Forge Pro, which has a separate limiter/maximizer which is independent of the 1st stage comp which can be bypassed or set to 1:1.

 

MikeLV wrote on 8/16/2018, 11:09 AM

You should be recording to an audio recorder, preferably multitrack, and use time code to sync the audio with the video.

I thought about doing that, but with a lot of starting and stopping it would seem like a big nightmare to try and sync up all those videos.

MikeLV wrote on 8/16/2018, 11:10 AM

Since you don't have a problem with clipping, have you considered using a Soft Limiter to attenuate just the unwanted peaks?

Thanks, that doesn't look too bad. If I use the soft limiter present like you show in your video, would I then use the Normalize switch?

john_dennis wrote on 8/16/2018, 12:02 PM

Yes. You can use any number of tools at event, track or media level. This particular limiter was used on hand clapping in the audience near the camera. I used a nested project because I was already doing video crops and I found it simpler to do them outside the main project.

I usually work with audio in Sound Forge. 

Last changed by john_dennis on 8/16/2018, 12:05 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: ASUS ProArt Z790-CREATOR WIFI
CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K - Core i9 13th Gen Raptor Lake 24-Core (8P+16E) P-core Base Frequency: 3.0 GHz E-core Base Frequency: 2.2 GHz LGA 1700 125W Intel UHD Graphics 770 Desktop Processor - BX8071513900K
GPU: Currently intel on-die video adapter
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 64GB (2 x 32GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 5600 (PC5 44800) Desktop Memory Model CMK64GX5M2B5600C40
Disk O/S & Programs: WD Black SN850 NVMe SSD WDS100T1X0E - SSD - 1 TB - PCIe 4.0 x4 (NVMe)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: CORSAIR - iCUE H115i RGB PRO XT 280mm Radiator CPU Liquid Cooling System
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Realtek S1220A on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: ASUS ProArt 31.5" 1440p HDR10 Monitor PA328QV
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 10.0.19045 Build 19045
Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

Former user wrote on 8/16/2018, 12:31 PM

Won't the normalize switch look at the peaks in the waveform and still normalize for the peak rather than the compressed file? I would think you would have to prerender the compressed version and then normalize, but I may be wrong.

MikeLV wrote on 8/16/2018, 12:33 PM

I've downloaded and installed the LoudMax and see that there are just two controls, but cannot find any instructions on the procedure to actually use the plugin, or how to determine where to set each slider?

Also, @john_dennis, I don't think it's possible to use the soft limiter or any other FX, and then the normalize in a chain like one first, then the other, because the normalize isn't an "FX," it's a "switch." Maybe it will work if there's a VST Normalize FX that I could place after the soft limiter. I am not sure.

Red Prince wrote on 8/16/2018, 2:17 PM

I thought about doing that, but with a lot of starting and stopping it would seem like a big nightmare to try and sync up all those videos.

Not if you use timecode. Timecode used to be quite an expensive and complicated proposition but with things like the Tentacle Sync E it has become a breeze.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

MikeLV wrote on 8/16/2018, 2:45 PM

$520?? I'm not even going to begin to try and understand what that thing does!

Red Prince wrote on 8/16/2018, 6:11 PM

$520 for two of them is a lot better than $2500 for one such device, which is not unusual. Do you want high quality sound or not? The $520 pails in comparison with what a decent professional quality sound recorder costs anyway. How much did you pay for Vegas Pro? And that’s just software, which, once developed, can be duplicated for virtually nothing. Any hardware will cost more because every single piece of it has to be made from physical components.

At any rate, the Tentacle company makes the lowest cost of timecode devices.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

john_dennis wrote on 8/17/2018, 12:44 AM

"Also, @john_dennis, I don't think it's possible to use the soft limiter or any other FX, and then the normalize in a chain like one first, then the other, because the normalize isn't an "FX," it's a "switch."

Nesting works.

Media fX does not work.

Track fX does not work.

Stacked filters on the same event does not work.

Adding the limiter in Sound Forge and saving as a take works.

My main system:
Motherboard: ASUS ProArt Z790-CREATOR WIFI
CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K - Core i9 13th Gen Raptor Lake 24-Core (8P+16E) P-core Base Frequency: 3.0 GHz E-core Base Frequency: 2.2 GHz LGA 1700 125W Intel UHD Graphics 770 Desktop Processor - BX8071513900K
GPU: Currently intel on-die video adapter
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 64GB (2 x 32GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 5600 (PC5 44800) Desktop Memory Model CMK64GX5M2B5600C40
Disk O/S & Programs: WD Black SN850 NVMe SSD WDS100T1X0E - SSD - 1 TB - PCIe 4.0 x4 (NVMe)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: CORSAIR - iCUE H115i RGB PRO XT 280mm Radiator CPU Liquid Cooling System
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Realtek S1220A on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: ASUS ProArt 31.5" 1440p HDR10 Monitor PA328QV
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 10.0.19045 Build 19045
Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

jrb101 wrote on 8/17/2018, 4:16 AM

Red Prince - you may be leading the OP down an audio rabbit hole here... Whilst you're spot on in everything you're saying, an externally recorded SMPTE-synced audio track(s) may be a tad overkill depending on the final use of the OP's videos.

MikeLV - I'm not sure if you've mentioned this (so apologies if you have and I missed it), but what are you recording the videos for? Is this commercial work for TV, tutorials for a DVD, personal YouTube/Vimeo etc? It's going to have a big impact on how much you'll want to spend to get good audio!

You should be able to get more than adequate audio for YouTube or Vimeo (or other streaming providers) through your camera's XLRs, but as Red Prince has rightly said the audio part of a video camera is (usually) a secondary concern and an external field recorder / PC/Mac Audio Interface into a DAW will provide a far more flexible and higher-performance option.

If the work is not commercial, with significant QA processes attached, you can get a good audio sync by manually lining up externally recorded audio tracks with an audio track recorded from the camera's in-built mic (just as a reference) - it helps to have a sharp snap/click before the actual part of the video you want as this is much easier to align. I believe there is also the option to automatically align by audio hidden away somewhere in Vegas Pro 15 (not very well documented), and there is definitely that option in Final Cut Pro X and in Da Vinci Resolve 15, so you could always sync up audio in one of those and render an intermediate to bring back into VP15 for further editing.

If it is commercial work, then yep Red Prince is definitely right in saying you want SMPTE-synced external audio of a high-quality field recorder for an absolutely perfect frame-synced solution - and that costs money...

BUT, I think we've digressed somewhat from the original point of asking about peak-limiting your audio 😂. Kudos to john_dennis for all his excellent suggestions and advice on compressors and limiters - they're the tools you want!

Sorry for not tagging people correctly in this post - the PC I'm using doesn't seem to want to let me!  

Jon Baker - Experienced in music creation, still a newbie at the video game 😉

(YouTube and Instagram - "Jon's Musical Musings")

PC: AMD Ryzen 3 2200G Desktop w/16GB DDR4 and Radeon RX570 (4GB) , ~5TB of storage across various HDDs, Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 audio interface, Mackie CR5BT studio monitors, 24" 1080p monitor (not anything special!)

For capture: Olympus PEN E-PL6 camera (1080p30) with external mic input adaptor and Olympus ME51S electret lavalier and Takstar SGC-598 shotgun mic and a Samsung Galaxy S10e (4K30 or 4K60) with Filmic Pro or stock video apps and external mic adaptor.

MikeLV wrote on 8/17/2018, 9:15 AM

jrb101, the videos are going to be for DVD sale as well as streaming video sale and are musical instrument instruction content.

Syncing up audio is out of the question. Yes, I've done it before with two cameras, the hand clap and dragging the waveforms to line up and have it be in sync. But these videos are going to include a lot of starting and stopping which means that I'd have to do that process a lot of times. And it just adds another piece of gear (an audio recorder) that I don't have the time to learn about.

So would you concur that I can order one of those used DBX 166 units and prevent the audio spikes from happening before the audio is sent to the camcorder? (My camcorder is the Canon XA10, it seems to do a fine job with audio, I don't get what's bad about it?) And then Normalization will work properly in Vegas? That's all I really want to happen. When I normalize, the audio sounds so much better, but like I said up above, it only works if the volume is consistent throughout the recording.

rraud wrote on 8/17/2018, 2:04 PM

The normalization in VP is 'peak', so if an event has a peak that is close to peak setting, very little change would be made. SF pro has an RMS normalize option, but I prefer compression and peak limiting. After a program is recorded I go though the files with Sound Forge to manually reduce the peaks, this gives a event a lot more overall volume back in Vegas, as the audio events are normalized.

Setting the LoudMax is easy. The output level (target) should be set the around 1.5 to 2.0 dBFS, (this 'usually' works out to around -14 LUFS to -18 LUFS, the 'recommended' loudness for on-line audio and DVD/BU.) Then lower the LoudMax threshold fader to obtain as little gain reduction as possible, whilst still getting the job done. As you lower the threshold you will hear the overall level of the program audio rise. Basically the same settings apply to WaveHammer's second-stage maximizer section.

 

 

MikeLV wrote on 8/17/2018, 5:44 PM

Setting the LoudMax is easy. The output level (target) should be set the around 1.5 to 2.0 dBFS, (this 'usually' works out to around -14 LUFS to -18 LUFS, the 'recommended' loudness for on-line audio and DVD/BU.) Then lower the LoudMax threshold fader to obtain as little gain reduction as possible, whilst still getting the job done. As you lower the threshold you will hear the overall level of the program audio rise. Basically the same settings apply to WaveHammer's second-stage maximizer section.

I'm using the LoudMax, by following your instruction. Do I understand this correctly? The Output setting appears to be the upper volume limit. I'm guessing this because I set it to -1.5 and when I play a part of the video that has the highest audio peak, it shows at -1.5 on the meter. Next, for Thresh, does this setting increase the volume by the number of dB? It doesn't seem to be exactly that. I isolated a spoken word that comes up as -13dB with LoudMax disabled. Then when I enable it, and set Thresh to -9.0dB, that same word comes up as -5.5. So what exactly does Thresh do and how do I know when I've achieved a correct setting for it?

EDIT: After messing around with LoudMax for the last 20 mins or so, I discovered a problem, if I'm using it on two different tracks, one for a guitar, and one for a backing track, I notice clipping now happening on the master level fader. Plus, using the normalizing switch still sounds far better than what is achieved with the LoudMax plugin.

Not Normalized:

Normalized:

So it seems if I go the plugin route, then after configuring the plugin, I then have to configure it more so that clipping does not occur. It still seems that being able to catch audio peaks while filming would be the best, most time efficient solution which brings me all the way back to my original post. :(

Former user wrote on 8/17/2018, 6:28 PM

I would say I agree. Get the best recording that you can that meets your needs and then minimize your post production fixes.

MikeLV wrote on 8/17/2018, 6:31 PM

I would say I agree. Get the best recording that you can that meets your needs and then minimize your post production fixes.

So with that in mind, should I get one of those DBX rack units and input into it from the mixer, and output to the camcorder?

MikeLV wrote on 8/17/2018, 8:07 PM

I was told that the 166 is better quality than the 266. Plenty of available units. Just want to be sure it will accomplish my original goal.

jrb101 wrote on 8/18/2018, 2:27 AM

jrb101, the videos are going to be for DVD sale as well as streaming video sale and are musical instrument instruction content.

Syncing up audio is out of the question. Yes, I've done it before with two cameras, the hand clap and dragging the waveforms to line up and have it be in sync. But these videos are going to include a lot of starting and stopping which means that I'd have to do that process a lot of times. And it just adds another piece of gear (an audio recorder) that I don't have the time to learn about.

So would you concur that I can order one of those used DBX 166 units and prevent the audio spikes from happening before the audio is sent to the camcorder? (My camcorder is the Canon XA10, it seems to do a fine job with audio, I don't get what's bad about it?) And then Normalization will work properly in Vegas? That's all I really want to happen. When I normalize, the audio sounds so much better, but like I said up above, it only works if the volume is consistent throughout the recording.

Yep! I agree - for your workflow a hardware limiter followed by normalisation should work fine ☺.

I don't think there is much wrong with the XA10's audio - if it works for your use then use it... I think the options people have suggested (including myself) just allow for more overall control of bit-depth, frequency, codec/format etc. But, as is common to say in the music world - "if it sounds good (to you), it IS good" so carry on using the XA10 ☺.

The DBX should do exactly what you're after and give you a nice easy workflow!

Good luck with the DVDs - let me know when the content is available and I'll look it up (I'm a multi-instrumentalist so I'm always interested in techniques and tuition!) 😀

Jon Baker - Experienced in music creation, still a newbie at the video game 😉

(YouTube and Instagram - "Jon's Musical Musings")

PC: AMD Ryzen 3 2200G Desktop w/16GB DDR4 and Radeon RX570 (4GB) , ~5TB of storage across various HDDs, Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 audio interface, Mackie CR5BT studio monitors, 24" 1080p monitor (not anything special!)

For capture: Olympus PEN E-PL6 camera (1080p30) with external mic input adaptor and Olympus ME51S electret lavalier and Takstar SGC-598 shotgun mic and a Samsung Galaxy S10e (4K30 or 4K60) with Filmic Pro or stock video apps and external mic adaptor.

MikeLV wrote on 8/19/2018, 2:52 PM

Thanks jrb101! I grabbed a DBX 166A unit off eBay so hopefully that will arrive this week. I'm going to connect the main outs from the mixer to the DBX, and then go from the DBX straight into the Canon XA10. Get the limiter working and then I should be good to go!

john_dennis wrote on 8/20/2018, 4:11 PM

As I was curating my Youtube channel, I was reminded that a hardware limiter on the front-end can be very useful.

Last changed by john_dennis on 8/20/2018, 4:12 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: ASUS ProArt Z790-CREATOR WIFI
CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K - Core i9 13th Gen Raptor Lake 24-Core (8P+16E) P-core Base Frequency: 3.0 GHz E-core Base Frequency: 2.2 GHz LGA 1700 125W Intel UHD Graphics 770 Desktop Processor - BX8071513900K
GPU: Currently intel on-die video adapter
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 64GB (2 x 32GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 5600 (PC5 44800) Desktop Memory Model CMK64GX5M2B5600C40
Disk O/S & Programs: WD Black SN850 NVMe SSD WDS100T1X0E - SSD - 1 TB - PCIe 4.0 x4 (NVMe)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: CORSAIR - iCUE H115i RGB PRO XT 280mm Radiator CPU Liquid Cooling System
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Realtek S1220A on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: ASUS ProArt 31.5" 1440p HDR10 Monitor PA328QV
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 10.0.19045 Build 19045
Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

MikeLV wrote on 8/20/2018, 4:22 PM

😂

MikeLV wrote on 8/23/2018, 6:01 PM

Well the DBX-166A has arrived and it's connected in my system! 😃 Best suggestion for an idiot's tutorial on how to use the Expander/Gate, Compressor and Peakstop Limiter? Reading the manual assumes you already know what you're doing (not me)