Jim excellent post--you answer Billyboy in a clear and rational way and he jumps on you anyway--I guess there is nothing you can do about it. This is one cult I am not joining. Cheesehole, this is a forum and the people over at audio are not my brothers---Some of them are very knowledgable and bring much to the table. People like Red Troll are in here to stir the pot.

Thanks -- rex, johnnycamcorder.

Billy -- I'm going to ignore your chiding because, well, with each post you're just digging yourself a bigger hole. Keep it up.

However, this:

Like that little kid VD has yet to really explain WHY he needs it, only that he wants it. Worse there are at least 2 theads where the "discussion" is going on.

...is completely false and moreover evident of the kind of selective reading you do of other's posts. If you want my explanation, despite your acidic tone, I'll gladly give it to you. If you feel the need to skim (lord knows you spend so much time here I don’t see what’s got you busy elsewhere), just read the bold:

I'm a filmmaker in the sense that I'd one day like to walk among artists like Godard and feel I've produced similar work. Surprise, surprise - this kind of thing doesn't pay well, i.e. it's not what one does to become rich, to become "professional" -- though like many here I'd like to say my work is "professional" in quality. The Vegas community is rife with people who have professional credits to their name, but I' like to be the one taking Vegas into a more artistic realm.

While earning my aesthetic chops studying films and filmmakers I admire, trying to put their lessons to practice in productions of my own, I work a blue-collar job on the East Coast and fill in spots where I need the extra cash with commercial video work. Steve Maxwell's Cruel and Unusual Kettlebell Exercises was my first commercial endeavor (incidentally I produced it on a Canopus Storm in RexEdit – a pain in my ass that made me look elsewhere and find Vegas. )

Recently I've been doing artist and fashion designer profiles, like Melina Hammer for Heike Jarick, and event at NYC's fashion week for Jarick's Spring 2004 collection. I'm currently working on a project with Hilton hotels, and provided things work out, more projects coming. In the mix I’ve done a slew of promos for local musicians here in Philly, most notably for Monica McIntyre and Matt Davis. I've just recently served as technical advisor for avante garde filmmaker Jon Jost.

But like I said, what I really wanna do is direct. And for the moment I’ve completed a project called ‘ synesthesia,’ which was a mixed-media event with short, abstract video works accompanied by live audio. It was part of the Philadelphia Fringe Festival program in 2003, and while it is not as good as I would’ve liked, it more closely approximates the kind of experimentation I’d like to do with video, especially DV. I also have been working on some verite stuff, but have little to show for it as I’m in the thick of editing it as I write this. And editing my demo reel. And doing web design for an online film exchange. And preparing for a major move to Brooklyn in less than ten weeks (not that you deserve an explanation for my current state of poverty, but there you have it…)

I’m now in the thick of shooting .

Looking ahead to the future, I’m hoping to complete several of such works – all from five to fifteen minutes. I come from the position that great filmmaking is less about setups and shots, and more about freeing yourself up from the demands of technical distractions to discover the nuances of an actor, the environment they’re in, and the subtleties of the conversation you wish to engage your audience in by producing a specific work.

When I feel I’ve arrived confidently at a spot where I have something worth saying with video, and an understanding of how to say it clearly, I will reach out to people who’ve promised their investment money. For my aesthetic leanings, and to save money, this means I will be shooting a feature on HD, or HDV should it provide a satisfactory image and be sufficiently along in its dev cycle by that time..

I have no need of the kind of compositing and titling gee-whiz items in Vegas, and while I’m happy they’re being developed by Sony, it’s aggravating that they came higher than media management on their priority list. For people like me, shooting and editing their own material and looking to migrate to HD production for longform (feature films, documentaries or TV series), the Vegas development story is distressing. We love Vegas and don’t want to be forced to leave in the future.

- jim

Thanks for the explanation, VD. Some of the features you listed sound very useful, and some of it (Edition stuff) frankly went over my head without some kind of visual aid.

I would love to see some of the FCP media pool features incorporated into Vegas. They sound elegant and would actually simplify rather than complicate the interface. Some of the media capture stuff like time lapse sounds more gimmicky than necessary, so I don't mind the 3rd party requirement. On the other hand, my first post here back in 2001 concerned simultaneous capture of the second DV stereo track, so I am a long-time proponent of that addition.

I think you've made some good suggestions, but I don't absolutely need them as much as you appear to. I have a deep amount of optimistic (albeit blind) faith in the Madison Sony team. I believe they have thought more about the future of Vegas than even this wonderful forum, and while their priorities don't always jive with everyone, they continually push the product forward with calculated enhancements. New features always seem to fit into a larger jigsaw puzzle, though the final picture remains hidden to the general public. I'm sure the completed puzzle will have al least 66% of the features you want, and I hope you'll be around to see it.

Above all, you have to give the team credit for keeping Vegas utterly stable. There is clearly brilliance behind this product.

"I’m now in the thick of shooting a new short piece – it should be about 5 minutes when completed. At around 300 clips, it is becoming very difficult to manage in Vegas 4."

Well there you have it. You consider a "complex" project something that runs 5 minutes. I work on projects that when finished run a hour or longer and I have no need for 'better' media management.

I'm guessing you don't have a programming background. Sometimes its the things that sound simple to add/change/fix that end up being the most complex to implement. That's frequently more true the more complex the application becomes.

You also need to keep in mind many in fact most haven't raised any serious issues with Vegas's current file management in this forum. Again there are the same few that have ranted and raved about it forever and with each new release the ranting starts anew again.

I don't pretend to know what Sony's priorites are for Vegas as to which new/improved features have/will get their attention. For you or anyone else to pretend they know better or using self-serving phrases like missing essential, etc. isn't helping that person's creditability.

Well there you have it. You consider a "complex" project something that runs 5 minutes.

If you consider what kind of five minute project I'm doing, what I need to lift from clips, and how it's been gathered in the first place, I'd bet my five minute project is more complex than many one hour gigs. I should know -- I've done a handful of one hour gigs, mostly musician profiles, and even the exercise video I did exceeds five minutes by a factor of seven. I don't consider them "complex," and never said "complexity" is constrained by completed length.

Additionaly, you asked why I need media management, and part of my response shed light on my plans to shoot a feature. Most features I know of offhand, have worked on, or have endeavored have a minimal shooting ratioo of 10 to 1 (my five minute project above is closer to 20 to 1, as it's improv'd completely...). So for a 1 hour, 45 minute project you're talking about exceeding 17 hours of media to manage!

Nevermind the audio concerns, especially if you've gone off camera/off sync to get better sound. Throw your 17 hours of footage with an equally large number of audio clips -- plus hundreds more if you're looking to have any sound design done -- and your text-based solution doesn't fly.

So, please don't confuse the length of my project for its complexity.

- jim

Actually Billy, there has been very little ranting and raving in this forum about anything. That's why its been a nice place to gather information and share ideas.

On Media management...

I always set my bins...And I write a few things down...I build in segments and I find I work rather quickly that way. I dont really rely on Vegas to manage my media too much. If that upgrade ever comes I am sure I will enjoy it.

On the threads in general..

Vegas desrves a standing ovation, followed quickly by a corporate American " don't get cocky, there is still work to be done" ..gut check.

Was it worth the $200? Yes, in my book and I can only hope my loyalty is rewarded in the future. If it is not, let's face it. I will then turn to FCP or some other editer on the market. I don't think I will quit the business based on what Sony does or doesnt do, and i am not leaving Vegas because they do not meet all of my wishes all of the time. Who has ever done that? Name the company and I will buy from them always!

For now I drive a BMW, my next car will be a BMW, until something else catches my eye or taste.Or performs better for the price I am willing to pay.

And BMW is one hell of a car at a pretty damned good price..It wont turn into a Ferrai but it still turn a few heads.


In this price range, Vegas, FCP, Premier and a slew of others offer some great features. We all have our favorite front runners, I love Vegas.

I now make a living at this, thus I consider myself a Professional NL Editer.
As do my clients. There is a whole lot of stuff out there to edit, Cable, features, T.V.,independant film, weddings, vanity video and the list grows.

A feature film is not the end all to editing, I know a lot of guys who havent worked on a feature in awhile and are starving for work.

I also know a few guys who only work on cable commercials and event type projects(weddings, graduations) these guys are pulling in high six figure incomes, houses boats and all.

Look,
Quit with the fighting, get with the editing....make your wish list know to Sony..they are listening....share your veiw points and knowledge and move on to the next clip!

fade to black.............


Vmcdee

The complexity of a project isn't limited to the number of source clips. I'm not trying to get into a contest who's doing more complex what. That isn't the issue. You still haven't spelled out what you're looking for in 'media management' so other than ranting nobody knows what you're expecting Vegas to do it doesn't already. Much also has to do with work flow. Explain HOW you go about doing this project and I bet you'll get several responses on how to approach it differently, one you may like better.

You still haven't spelled out what you're looking for in 'media management' so other than ranting nobody knows what you're expecting

I guess you missed my earlier post completely, or ... ???

- jim

>quit with the fighting, get with the editing....make your wish list know to Sony..they are listening....share your veiw points and knowledge and move on to the next clip!

I'll buy that for $200. I would hope that no one thinks their creative spirit is in any way being limited by Vegas's so called restrictive work flow. Got a 300+ clip DV project to do? Make some folders, make some scratch time lines that you can Copy and Paste from, and just do it. Back to work...

I have a dream... that one day I'll be able to work in Vegas without Mr. Cheesehole's workarounds... that don't even do the job as nearly well as other NLE's with real media management capabilities.

Brooklyn, Yo!

Your earlier posts contain mostly ranting. You keep mentioning "media management" without saying what you expect "media management" to be. How can I or anyone especially Sony offer you any help if you don't know what you want yourself?

Its like a waiter asking would you like the vegatable soup or chicken noodle and you answer yes.

Like most busy people yes, I scan posts. I don't read all of them and surely not word for word. Drop the attitude and someone may be willing to help you. Continue to make lengthly speeches without content and you find you're mostly ignored.

Now see Billy,
I know you are only trying to be funny, but that "work around" isnt the result of Chesshole..He just gave His concept of a POSSIBLE WORK AROUND.

Just a shared thought, we all really should take a little more care not to turn this into a cat fight. We are at professionals right? And before anyone makes a snide comment on Professionalism, let me add this...If anyone here views anybody as being less than professional based on what they have not done as of yet, remeber this..we all started someplace.

For the record, I share you dream of not having to do any work arounds, however; as I am loyal to Vegas I accept it's short comings along with it's many assets.
By the way, does anybody out there have the ABSOLUTE PERFECT, WIFE, JOB and or LIFE..NO BUGS, NO Dissapointments NO DRAMA, if not I have an upgrade for under $200.

LOL...HEhehehe..

Fade to black...

VMcdee

We as editers have way to much free time on our hands....So we must be doing something right! LOL..
I know none of my other comrads have nearly this much time on their hands for forums.

I bet the guys at Sony are smoking a big fatty and saying to themselves.

"PUFF PUFF, Ok, let's give em media management is b, dual processor rendering in c, puff puff, and a kick ass EDL in d, PUff PUff, cough, " Yeah Dude we will be like Heros Bro...Let these guys do all the yelling we take down the notes and CHA CHING! LOL.

Ok, a little over blown, but hey..Be blessed in that we have the time to "gripe" about software.....Face it we are all geeks! geeks of the 21st Century...Minus the glasses ans low self esteem! LOL..

As for me www.trueimagefitness.com <-- Not youor average geek! LOL

I am going to continue to enjoy my double career and relish in the fact I am an owner with lots of possibilities to look forward to.
thanks Sony! And Hey, dont make liars out of us "CULT MEMBERS" I hate eatting crow!

LOL...Unless it's cooked really good!

fade to black...
In Das Can !

Vance

dude, its so obvious technology has spoiled you. can't manage 300 clips in vegas without getting confused? it was not long ago when i worked on film projects where my clips were hanging -- literally -- in media bins... by clothespins. hundreds and hundreds of clips; all spliced up, labeled and hanging on the wall in front of the flatbed editor. i didn't have problems back then, let alone now with the nested clip bins supported in vegas; just put a modicum of effort into it. if you can organize documents in windows explorer, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to neatly organize 300 clips in the media pool, especially with subclip support added to vegas 5. if you're doing a feature, try a structure like this:
tape scene takeif your doing a documentary, try a structure like this:
date location takeand then cross-reference the clips into another structure like:
person location takeyou get the idea. use your brain and be a little creative. the possibilites are endless.
-nate

Rextillion, you just can't seem to quit pointing your finger at me. Obviously I must have struck a nerve. Probably because, I call it like it is and the truth hurts don't it?. And it's funny because everytime I do the majority of the users in here agree with me, except for those 3 or 4 cry babies bringing down everyone elses excitement about a new product. Hey, I didn't get everything I asked for in Vegas either. I haven't cried about it, I gave feedback to Sony telling them why I need this feature and how I'm currently limited without it. I have not seen any of the crybaby's make a valid point as to their whining for a feature that got left out, except for "PPro" does it that way. Are you telling me because you don't have media management tools like PPro that you can't get work done? I'm sure there's 5 other things that Vegas does that PPro can't do as well. That's why we have choices, you look at what each app has and weigh out the good with the bad and make a choice and run with it. If you keep whinning about the features in PPro then why not go over to their forum and clutter it with a bunch of whinniing nonsence.

Billyboy, bakerbud, cheesehole, and vmcdee are right on with their viewpoint. Unfortunately, they're preaching "reason" to people that can't think in a reasonable fashion.

Also Rextellion, Why don't you use that search feature in the "Vegas Video" forum, and put "Rednroll" in the user column. You'll see my posts in this forum way longer than your username ever existed in this forum. So who's the newbie in this forum? But again, I'm pointing out the obvious and with what "reason" should tell you is truth, but of course you won't get it.

Okay big-mouth---I went back and did a search---You started posting in this room in late April---I went back before April 20 back to January--Guess how many posts in Vegas Video ZERO---Just goes to prove that your primary purpose for coming into this room was to stir the pot---You really are a big time loser.

quit it guys

you're wasting some precious bandwidth and time.

Rextillion,
You are really showing how dumb you really are, I can really see what I'm dealing with now. You don't even know how to use a search engine. When you did that search did you see it showed "501" posts? Why don't you go to that first post and you'll see the date......Here, I'll help you out since it seems like the knowledge might be a little over your head. I wonder how you are able to get anything done in Vegas, even search engines seem to be too complicated for you.

From July 23rd 1999 in the Vegas Video forum:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=59525

Sit down "newbie"

Troll--now you are grasping---My point oh feeble-minded one is that in the past six months you have had absolutely nothing to say in this forum---Then when 5.0 is released, you make a grand appearance. Let it rest, you are making a fool of yourself. By the way, you have a day job---lots of time on your hands hey???

I didn't come in to stir the pot, I came in to see what the Video users thought of the latest release and saw a bunch of whining from a few cry babies, while the more professional users where excited. But for some reason, I've been using Vegas much longer than you and I have to keep defending my credibility and you act like I have no right to say anything. So for the same reasons you're telling me to shut-up and leave, I can use "your reasoning" and say the same thing.

Oh here's your first post date: 2/22/2002 6:25:27 PM

Try clicking on my username in this post and it will give a list of every post I've made in THIS forum, since the search engine is too complicated for you. So who's the "Troll"? You are. You can't even make posts outside of this thread, without mentioning my name. You are pathetic.