HLG HDR Vegas Considerations?

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/15/2023, 3:56 PM

With your S5II X you will shoot to 10bit v-log footage. Either in All-I, long GOP. Both is great for Vegas.

Do not shoot for HLG.

And if you grade to HDR PQ, that works in Vegas too. But you will need an HDR monitor. Or you grade to SDR.

There are different ways in detail.

What are the specs of you pc?

rtbond wrote on 6/15/2023, 4:15 PM

"Do not shoot for HLG" Care to add details around this recommendation? The link below indicates HLG is supported in VP20. Yes I can chose V-Log was well (I'm just learning the camera and this setting appears under something called "Photo Style", LOL.) My PC specs are in the signature line. Thanks! https://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/us/video-editing/hdr-color-grading-in-post-production/

RogerS wrote on 6/15/2023, 5:48 PM

If you have 10 bit log there's no need to compromise with HLG. Log can get more of the dynamic range out of the sensor in a more editing friendly format.

fr0sty wrote on 6/15/2023, 11:01 PM

Shoot vlog, not hlg. You can still grade it to HDR, and get far better results. You may have to buy a firmware upgrade to enable v-log mode if you do not see it selectable in the picture profiles.

Hlg isn't good for grading.

When you enable vlog, import the video into Vegas, enable HDR mode, right click on the media in your project media pool and select properties. From there, set the color space to Vlog/Vgamut, then grade it to your liking from there. Remember to only use the color grading panel to do the color grades in HDR, as some of the color grading OFX are not yet 10-bit compatible.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/16/2023, 1:48 AM

The technical reason why it is unwise to shoot to HLG is, that the number of values in the upper stops of the gamma curve is lower, compared to log. So, as said, that is why you end up with a higher latitude during grading before the footage disintegrated (you still do not use raw, but you could with the s5IIX and an Blackmagic Video Assist).

So shoot to v-log in All-i AVC with a color sampling of 422. AVC with long-GOP will be fine for Vegas too. You have no i-GPU, so avoid HEVC.

Your DELL Monitor is HDR400 only, what is not high enough to grade for the typical 1000 nits.

rtbond wrote on 6/16/2023, 5:17 AM

Thanks. Yes I understand an DisplayHDR 400 display is not a DisplayHDR 1000 display (perhaps one day I can afford a 1000 nit monitor). So VP 20 has two HDR options under Project Properties, neither of which is V-Log (HDR10 and HLG). Does this VP20 HDR value represent the target HDR format rather than the media's HDR format?

Also, the Lumix S5m2x produces a file with a BT.709 Transfer Characteristics. Is the BT.709 transfer characteristic in the MediaInfo file expected for Panasonic (Lumix S5m2x) V-Log? This is in contrast to Panasonic (Lumix S5m2x) HLG recorded content, which has a Transfer Characteristics "HLG" and Color Primaries of "BT.2020 non-constant" (not surprising, unlike V-Log). Per @Fr0sty there is a "Panasonic - V-Log- V-Gamut" color space option in the Media Properties color space that looks less washed out than if I choose Rec.709.

Should you be interested, the V-Log file in question (MOV and MediaInfo export are HERE)

RogerS wrote on 6/16/2023, 7:55 AM

You'd want V-log and V-gamut to preserve the full gamut of colors and dynamic range the camera can produce. It should shoot this combination: https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/dscoi/DC-S5M2X/html/DC-S5M2X_DVQP2992_eng/0093.html#00001

and "Expressive Video Functionality: 14+ stop V-Log/V-Gamut capture delivers a high dynamic range and broad colors; in-camera photo and video color grading; 5.8K Pro-Res, Pro-Res internal, RAW over HDMI, Wireless/Wired IP streaming" https://shop.panasonic.com/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/full-frame-cameras/dc-s5m2xbody

The Panasonic-specific metadata says the following

com.panasonic.Semi-Pro.metadat : <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?> / <ClipMain xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns="urn:schemas-Professional-Plug-in:Semi-Pro:ClipMetadata:v1.0"> / <ClipContent> / <GlobalClipID>060A2B340101010501010D21130000009F5F7A9C0A0000045097146119210133</GlobalClipID> / <Duration>660</Duration> / <EditUnit>1001/30000</EditUnit> / <EssenceList> / <Video> / <Codec BitRate="150">H265_420_LongGOP</Codec> / <ActiveLine>2160</ActiveLine> / <ActivePixel>3840</ActivePixel> / <BitDepth>10</BitDepth> / <FrameRate>29.97p</FrameRate> / <TimecodeType>Drop</TimecodeType> / <StartTimecode>00:00:53:00</StartTimecode> / </Video> / <Audio> / <Channel>4</Channel> / <SamplingRate>48000</SamplingRate> / <BitsPerSample>24</BitsPerSample> / </Audio> / </EssenceList> / <ClipMetadata> / <Rating>0</Rating> / <Access> / <CreationDate>2023-06-15T20:11:43-05:00</CreationDate> / <LastUpdateDate>2023-06-15T20:11:43-05:00</LastUpdateDate> / </Access> / <Device> / <Manufacturer>Panasonic</Manufacturer> / <ModelName>DC-S5M2X</ModelName> / </Device> / <Shoot> / <StartDate>2023-06-15T20:11:43-05:00</StartDate> / </Shoot> / </ClipMetadata> / </ClipContent> / <UserArea> / <AcquisitionMetadata xmlns="urn:schemas-Professional-Plug-in:P2:CameraMetadata:v1.2"> / <CameraUnitMetadata> / <ISOSensitivity>6400</ISOSensitivity> / <Gamma> / <CaptureGamma>V-Log</CaptureGamma> / </Gamma> / <Gamut> / <CaptureGamut>V-Gamut</CaptureGamut> / </Gamut> / </CameraUnitMetadata> / </AcquisitionMetadata> / </UserArea> / </ClipMain>

Yes, these two choices are for HDR format. (Vlog is not an editing mode)
If you choose 32-bit full (ACES) mode you can master for HDR/widegamut or SDR/Rec709. Select the right color gamut and space by right clicking on media going to properties and then color space.

Alternatively if just going to Rec 709 you can also use the color grading panel and choose the input lut vlog to rec 709 and go from there. Panasonic also has a LUT you can download and use with the color grading panel or LUT Fx. You might switch to 32-bit full, view transform "off" before rendering to make use of the 10-bits of your file.

rtbond wrote on 6/16/2023, 4:23 PM

Thanks again everyone. Given that color grading is not in my normal (video enthusiast) work I have decide to try shooting V-Log with the Lumix S5iix "Real-Time LUT" feature applied to the footage in-camera. This should (I hope) result in very usable footage inside of VP20 without having to do too much color grading. You can load any CUBE and VLT formatted LUT files into the camera and have them applied in real-time. Using the free Panasonic Varicam V-Log LUT files

mark-y wrote on 6/16/2023, 5:12 PM

Since your footage is shot REC 709, I wouldn't undertake editing, grading, or delivering in the oversized HDR10 color space.

Former user wrote on 6/16/2023, 9:12 PM

Thanks again everyone. Given that color grading is not in my normal (video enthusiast) work I have decide to try shooting V-Log with the Lumix S5iix "Real-Time LUT" feature applied to the footage in-camera.

That's meant for view finder or monitor output, but you obviously are able to bake in the lut into the camera recording so Panasonic think there is a purpose to doing that for some. To me it seems like a form of compression of the data with V-log and then decompression with the in camera lut which seems pointless, you have destroyed much of the dynamic range recording data from your camera's sensor and 10bit V-log.

Luts are destructive you have to be careful with how you use them in an NLE, and what you're doing in camera is akin to adding a lut to the first node in an NLE, which nobody would ever do if they knew what they were doing.

RogerS wrote on 6/16/2023, 11:26 PM

I don't see the point of applying LUTs in camera. If you don't want to grade use a setting more or less ready to go (Cinelike-D) and add contrast in post as needed. Otherwise just do it in post as at least it is possible to undo if things go wrong.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/17/2023, 8:19 AM

The S5II(x) has the feature of „real time“ LUTs, what is a marketing translation for to burn in LUTs. But that is nothing new really, and has been possible for a long time (eg with Atomos recorders).

That can have the purpose to be fast in the post. Applying LUTs from the Varicam Library to v-log translates the footage to SDR rec709, but you loose the freedom to adjust the v-log as you wish.

You can record to v-log, and apply LUT in the post in Vegas, both with input or output LUTs. So for most purposes it works well to record v-log with v-Gamut, and apply such a LUT in the post. But that is up to you, for sure it is possible to burn in LUTs in the camera, and edit the rec709 footage in the post.

rtbond wrote on 6/17/2023, 2:34 PM

For the Lumix S5ii cameras the "Real-Time LUT" is separate and distinct to the LUT you can apply to the camera monitor or HDMI out. It is the "baked in "LUT" as @Wolfgang S. points out. I am sure Panasonic added this camera feature as it supports certain use case, which may not be your use case but the world is a big place.

"Real-Time LUT" is in fact a per-built Photo Style for V-Log. You can define custom Photo Styles that use other log profiles adding (or not) whatever LUT you want to use (provided it is VLT or CUBE formatted).

fr0sty wrote on 6/17/2023, 9:12 PM

The technical reason why it is unwise to shoot to HLG is, that the number of values in the upper stops of the gamma curve is lower, compared to log. So, as said, that is why you end up with a higher latitude during grading before the footage disintegrated (you still do not use raw, but you could with the s5IIX and an Blackmagic Video Assist).

So shoot to v-log in All-i AVC with a color sampling of 422. AVC with long-GOP will be fine for Vegas too. You have no i-GPU, so avoid HEVC.

Your DELL Monitor is HDR400 only, what is not high enough to grade for the typical 1000 nits.

Actually, the S1 and S5 series can shoot RAW when connected to external recorders, namely the atomos ninja V.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 6/18/2023, 11:39 AM

For the Lumix S5ii cameras the "Real-Time LUT" is separate and distinct to the LUT you can apply to the camera monitor or HDMI out. It is the "baked in "LUT" as @Wolfgang S. points out. I am sure Panasonic added this camera feature as it supports certain use case, which may not be your use case but the world is a big place.

"Real-Time LUT" is in fact a per-built Photo Style for V-Log. You can define custom Photo Styles that use other log profiles adding (or not) whatever LUT you want to use (provided it is VLT or CUBE formatted).

One way of thinking of a "Real-Time LUT" is as an easy way to add log recording curves to a camera without a firmware upgrade. But it only makes sense to shoot log in circumstances where dynamics are both excessive and imbalanced, often perceived as being high in contrast. I don't shoot log at all under controlled lighting.

I suppose a rational for baking in a look-lut might be to not use luts at all in edit for better performance. Would make sense if you could do that without adding log to the mix. But might not make sense if you use Vegas CGP for grading which uses underlying 3d-ofx lut processing that mashes look and camera luts into the grading lut... timing tests show that process doesn't seem to increase load adding 2 luts into the grade after you exit CGP.

rtbond wrote on 6/18/2023, 1:24 PM

I suppose a rational for baking in a look-lut might be to not use luts at all in edit for better performance. Would make sense if you could do that without adding log to the mix. But might not make sense if you use Vegas CGP for grading which uses underlying 3d-ofx lut processing that mashes look and camera luts into the grading lut... timing tests show that process doesn't seem to increase load adding 2 luts into the grade after you exit CGCGP.Y

Yes, you can apply a LUT without applying a Log profile to the image. The S5iix allows you to specify baked in (real-time) LUT via the Photo Style setting while using the "Standard" camera setting. You also have the option to apply a LUT of your choosing just to the camera's monitor or HDMI signal (not to the recorded images,)

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/18/2023, 2:41 PM

The S5II X wirks together with the Video Assist recording to BRAW. That for sure. The Ninja - I am not sure if it works together with this camera?

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/18/2023, 3:30 PM

One way of thinking of a "Real-Time LUT" is as an easy way to add log recording curves to a camera without a firmware upgrade. But it only makes sense to shoot log in circumstances where dynamics are both excessive and imbalanced, often perceived as being high in contrast. I don't shoot log at all under controlled lighting.

You do not add log to a camera with a LUT. The S5II has the capability to record in v-log. Either you use log as recording format or not.

The typical SDR footage has a dynamic range of 6 stops only, what may be enough in situations as lowlight.

log makes sense, especially if the dynamic range is high. The camera can record about 14 stops in log. The only question is, if your motive has such a high dynamic range (what happens in many cases)

Beside the transfer function you shoot to the extended color space v-gamut. What makes also sense, especially if you grade to HDR in rec2020.

I suppose a rational for baking in a look-lut might be to not use luts at all in edit for better performance. Would make sense if you could do that without adding log to the mix. But might not make sense if you use Vegas CGP for grading which uses underlying 3d-ofx lut processing that mashes look and camera luts into the grading lut... timing tests show that process doesn't seem to increase load adding 2 luts into the grade after you exit CGP.

The Vegas CGP is also designed for grading to HDR from log footage. Where Vegas shows lower performanc is if you apply the ACES color management.

But one way to avoid the high performance requirements is to shoot to v-log, grade that in the CGP, and apply a transformation LUT as input or output LUT - with project settings in 32bit mode without transformation. If one uses LUTs from the free Varicam LUT library, this are LUTs that are designed to make the transformation from v-log with v-gamut to rec 709. you find then here:

https://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/cinema_camera_varicam_eva/support/lut/

The ACES transformation will be required if you grade to HDR. There are few LUTs that are designed to grade to PQ or HLG in a direct way, what does not mean that such LUTs does not exist