What type of footage do you use?

With or without ACES transformation?

But most important: Which encoder do you wish to use?

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but where do I see ACES at? The cameras I use are a GH6 and GoPro 11. This is what i got out of Media info I have from the GoPro 11

 

General
Complete name                            : E:\Videos\Rubicon 2023 Sept 14\GP 11\Trip\GX010975.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 1
Codec ID                                 : mp41 (mp41)
File size                                : 300 MiB
Duration                                 : 20 s 907 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 120 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 59.940 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L6@Main
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 20 s 904 ms
Bit rate                                 : 120 Mb/s
Width                                    : 5 312 pixels
Height                                   : 2 988 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.126
Stream size                              : 299 MiB (100%)
Title                                    : GoPro H.265
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Color range                              : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 20 s 907 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 192 kb/s
Nominal bit rate                         : 48.0 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 483 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : GoPro AAC  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC

Other #1
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 20 s 904 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 06:46:00:38
Time code of last frame                  : 06:46:21:51
Time code, stripped                      : Yes
Title                                    : GoPro TCD  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC

Other #2
ID                                       : 4
Type                                     : meta
Format                                   : gpmd
Codec ID                                 : gpmd
Duration                                 : 20 s 903 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Title                                    : GoPro MET  
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-09-15 13:39:38 UTC
Duration_LastFrame                       : -118

What type of footage do you use?

With or without ACES transformation?

But most important: Which encoder do you wish to use?

Here is the GH6 info

 

eneral
Complete name                            : E:\Videos\Wyoming\Yellowstone\P1001966.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42/hvc1)
File size                                : 345 MiB
Duration                                 : 30 s 30 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 96.5 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 59.940 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 30 s 30 ms
Bit rate                                 : 95.7 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.192
Stream size                              : 343 MiB (99%)
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 30 s 30 ms
Source duration                          : 30 s 80 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 128 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 459 KiB (0%)
Source stream size                       : 460 KiB (0%)
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-13 20:59:36 UTC

Ok, so I assume that you render to HEVC...

Possible project settings for 10bit, full range and for a gama of 2,2 for video - here for 50 fps. Change it to your 59,94 fps for your footage.

And render settings - here you have to switch to a bit depth of 10bit manually, what is possible only if the project settings are 32 bit. ACES transformation is off, since you are in rec709 (and I assume you wish to stay in rec709):

Remember, that you have to set in addition in project the render template to full range too, if you wish to stay in full range (limited is the default).

Ok, so I assume that you render to HEVC...

Possible project settings for 10bit, full range and for a gama of 2,2 for video - here for 50 fps. Change it to your 59,94 fps for your footage.

And render settings - here you have to switch to a bit depth of 10bit manually, what is possible only if the project settings are 32 bit. ACES transformation is off, since you are in rec709 (and I assume you wish to stay in rec709):

Remember, that you have to set in addition in project the render template to full range too, if you wish to stay in full range (limited is the default).

Thanks, i will play with it more. I tried switching to full range in project settings but it didn't show up. I will see about your settings to see if the 10 bit option shows up.

There's no reason to render to such settings if the file is SDR and intended to be viewed rather than color corrected and rendered again.

There's no reason to render to such settings if the file is SDR and intended to be viewed rather than color corrected and rendered again.

I do a lot of outdoor scenery video. 4:2:2 might not be worth it, but inwould think 10-bit would be worth it as there is very a large color spectrum. Thoughts?

That is a misconception as you can't actually see the difference between them. The SDR color spectrum (gamut) is normally limited to Rec709 as well.

The point of 10-bit 422 is for further editing- you can benefit from the precision when you convert flat-looking log footage to a normal gamma space and bring the wide color gamut back in to Rec709. Or if you need to key out a greenscreen or do other compositing. Once you do those edits you can just render as 8-bit 420 knowing your file will look as good as it can.

To preserve the 10-bits of quality when doing the render you need to be in a 32-bit project mode in VEGAS (I use 32-bit full with view transform set to off). Also set the color range manually to full on your media if it is actually full but VEGAS Pro 21 reads it as undefined (builds 300+ are having issues with reading metadata).

As Roger says, rendering 4:2:0 source to 4:2:2 subsampling is like putting the same amount of water in a bigger bucket. Accomplishes nothing that can be measured.

Likewise, 709 source cannot be transfigured to HDR / HLG color space by rendering it as such.

10 bit source in a 10 bit project, if rendered to a 10 bit output file will show less banding But if you deliver 8 bit video, that advantage too will be lost, although the added broadband noise in the frequency domain may fool the uncritical viewer into fantasizing otherwise.

Certain AI applications can now (very recently) upfill 8 bit integer still image source to a 10 bit container, and actually increase perceived dynamic range and color saturation, but video just isn't there yet. A 10 minute project could take the rest of your natural lifetime to render. That's where the state of the art is at, as a restorer I follow this stuff very closely.

The templates are set to 32bit. The footage is 420 only, according to the mediainfo presented above. There are some cases where we may see a difference between 8bit and 10bit (banding in the sky).

I didn't notice the MediaInfo so in that case it's a complete waste of space to inflate it to 422.

Doing log conversions or extensive color manipulations in 32 bit mode with 10 bit footage makes sense for avoiding banding at the processing stage ​​​​​​even if the resulting file is 8 bit they'll be the right 8 bits).

Neither camera here looks like it is recording log (normally Vlog is paired with vgamut, right?) so you may not get any benefit from 32 bit precision anyway, worth testing it both ways with sky and skin.

I didn't notice the MediaInfo so in that case it's a complete waste of space to inflate it to 422.

That is why the render templates are for 420 only.

Doing log conversions or extensive color manipulations in 32 bit mode with 10 bit footage makes sense for avoiding banding at the processing stage ​​​​​​even if the resulting file is 8 bit they'll be the right 8 bits).

Indeed, a 32-bit floating point calculation prevents banding during the processing stage; however, the implications of rendering solely to 8-bit are less apparent.

Neither camera here looks like it is recording log (normally Vlog is paired with vgamut, right?) so you may not get any benefit from 32 bit precision anyway, worth testing it both ways with sky and skin.

V-Log is typically paired with V-Gamut, which is a wide color space similar to the ACES color space. Therefore, when shooting in V-Log/V-Gamut, it makes sense to work within the ACES framework to take advantage of the expansive ACES color space, whether the transformation is aimed at Rec. 709 or Rec. 2020. 

This is particularly beneficial for elements like the sky and skin tones, which can gain from 32-bit floating-point processing, especially when recorded in 10-bit.

@joshua-noesser Rendering hevc (h.265) will give you a 10-bit render option with Nvidia and MainConcept Magix render templates. If you really want 4:2:2 10-bit renders, the ProRes templates will do that but the render files will be significantly larger. I don't see any better color playing back ProRes but it might look smoother because it's so easy for players to decode. I would advise against a desire to upscale the render of 4:2:0 footage to hevc 4:2:2 as that's probably the hardest to play smoothly and doesn't add color depth the monitor won't do itself converting to RGB.

Btw, since your footage is limited range, you might consider setting your project to legacy 8-bit (limited range) for editing and doing the final render after changing it to 32-bit limited range. What's optimal depends on what you plan on doing with the final render. For my projects destined for YouTube, I find editing my projects full-range better since YouTube stretches the range of uploads anyway. I don't use Aces however. I just set the 32-bit full range projects like this:

The red boxes are the critical items you need to change manually to bypass Aces going from 8-bit full to 32-bit full range.

The only way to get the most out of 10-bit out of the GH6 is to shoot in V-Log mode, and then grade it from there to HDR 10. To do this, set your project setting to HDR 10 mode, and then right click on your GH6 media and go into properties, and under color space set it to V-Log/v gamut. Color your video from there, and render it to AVC or HEVC HDR. Keep in mind you will need an HDR TV and an HDR compatible media player in order to view this footage properly. Most TVs can only do 8 bit, and even some cheaper HDR TVs can't do it properly, because they can't get bright enough. You technically want a TV that can hit a minimum of 700 nits of brightness (If OLED) or 1000 nits (if LCD/LED).

The easiest way to know for sure that you are playing the video back properly is to put it on a USB drive and play it directly from the TVs USB port. Other than that, you can upload the video to YouTube and then use the TVs YouTube app to play it.

Even if you do all of the above correctly, you are still only getting 4:2:0, because only editing formats use 4:2:2. Delivery formats always down convert from there.

Even if you do all of the above correctly, you are still only getting 4:2:0, because only editing formats use 4:2:2. Delivery formats always down convert from there.

+1

I won't be around by the time ATSC3 adopts 4:2:2 for delivery, and when it does, it will be all about money, because human eyes don't care.

There are times where it matters... I notice it a lot when editing concerts with harsh red stage lighting.

Well, analog video tape was essentially 4:1:0 after digitizing, so count your blessings.

There are times where it matters... I notice it a lot when editing concerts with harsh red stage lighting.

I've found that if I pay proper attention to white balance and iris, chroma sub-samping doesn't matter. It had some impact when I used 3ccd hd cameras for a decade which down-sampled from the full rgb sensor array to 4:2:2 encoding for recording. But makes no difference at all with 4k sensors rgb physically striped optimally for 4:2:0 encoding... which covers all currently made single-sensor cameras. In a nutshell, I manually lock white balance and iris before shows asking the lighting guy to set all his color-control lights to white. All the colors then come out great as he varies the colors and lights during the show. Bright and dim record as intended and the curtain calls for theatricals under white-light are perfect. I've actually begun to prefer rock concert lighting best of all... where one abrupt lighting change can be used to easily achieve frame-accurate multicam sync.

I film concerts primarily, and we struggle with reds unless shooting 4:2:2, especially harsh LED reds... no matter what your white balance or iris is set at, it bleeds over in 4:2:0 (unless the iris is so dim it makes the image way too dark), so we stopped shooting in that format. You must keep in mind that you're not shooting pixel perfect crops at 4K on a sensor, most single sensor cameras are downscaling from much higher pixel resolutions, so you're not getting a "designed for 4:2:0" accurately when doing that. There's actually a lot more pixels on the sensor being used, then the image is down-converted from there.