riredale wrote on 12/13/2012, 4:45 PM
Hey, for some applications a stone tablet and chisel are exactly what are needed.

My wife makes a sort of dino stew, though I would never call it that in front of her. Come to think of it, "Dino Stew" would be a pretty good name for a band.

And a "charm bar" sounds to me like a place where Barbie and Ken would hang out.
TorS wrote on 12/13/2012, 5:06 PM
"Charm Bar Layla" could be Hank's cousin.

Here's where I come from: I got my first pc in 1984. I got an IBM AT in 1986, mostly to be able to run a music notation program called Personal Composer. I also got a text editor called Microsoft Word for Dos. This was at a time when people around me were running Word Perfect, Word Star or dedicated word processing machines. Hardly anyone sold Microsoft products in Norway then.

Word for Dos was a beautiful program, a dream for a lover of typography. And for a writer. Easy to learn, extremely fast, and it fitted on two small floppy discs, three if you counted the multilingual spell checkers and thesauri (yes indeed, and you could easily add to it your own words, dialect and whatnot). The last upgrade I got was on five floppies.

I am not a programmer, but I learned my way around MS-Dos. That gave me a feeling of control. Then came Windows, and the story of Windows has been a constant breaking down of the control I had over my pc. Partly, this has to do with raised levels of technological complexity, making it unreasonable for someone like me to keep up and learn all the new aspects of my system. But most of all - I guess - it has to do with sales. Microsoft had conquered a great share of the market, and the most potent growth area would be people who either couldn't care less about computers or didn't understand anything of them - or both.

Only natural then, that Microsoft developed software that catered for those people (while pretending to work for the rest of us). Word for Windows is such a construction, made by bureaucrats for bureaucrats. No beauty there, only so called efficiency based on what most people would expect in such and such situations. I respect the majority in democratic elections, but please don't force me into suits that "most people" would have liked.

This background is in my blood, so that every time Microsoft comes with a new operating system I think I'll pass. I am writing this on a PC with Win XP Pro SP2 and some of SP3. It can not accommodate the latest upgrades to several of my favorite programs - not just SCS's. So I ordered a new PC - the kind where you can specify the ingredients - and got the choice between Win 7 and Win 8. I went for Win 8. It'll be more than good enough for me I am sure, but I will continue to dream about MS-Dos and Word for Dos. It's like remembering your first love: as over as can be, but a sweet memory nonetheless.
set wrote on 12/13/2012, 6:54 PM
No thought of upgrading to Win 8 for now...
PatBranch wrote on 12/13/2012, 7:08 PM
I really like windows 7 64. I think I'm going to put windows 8 on my tablet running windows 7, since it's not the best touch OS.
PeterDuke wrote on 12/14/2012, 2:28 AM
"I will continue to dream about MS-Dos and Word for Dos. It's like remembering your first love"

I am sorry for you. Apparently you never new what it was to love Wordstar. It was claimed that version 4 had no bugs! I never disproved that claim.
ushere wrote on 12/14/2012, 3:28 AM
i want broadcast titler 2 on my amiga 2000....

meanwhile, have 8 on an old dual core desktop - but for the life of me i can't find any love or respect for it.

john_dennis wrote on 12/14/2012, 11:28 AM
+1 for Wordstar.

I have an economics research paper done completely on a PCjr using Wordstar. Since it's saved on 3.5" 720 KB diskettes, hopefully no one else in the world will ever read it.

I just have no special interest in Windows 8. Since I work in tech, I'm likely to have to use or know about it sooner or later, though.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 190943
Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

JJKizak wrote on 12/14/2012, 11:53 AM
At least with DOS and Windows 3.1 you new what the hell was going on.
videomachine wrote on 12/14/2012, 12:36 PM
I started using Vegas back at version 5. I tried to use Premiere back then and found it to be way to buggy and a hassle to use as an editing tool. Sony has finally drifted behind though, and as of this fiasco called version 12, I am going back to Premiere.

It all the time hangs when it launches. Time code does not import with P2 files. Actually, I have had problems with Vegas and TC for as long as i used it, but there were always workarounds that were easy. The GPU acceleration is a joke and unreliable. It crashes computer like a drunk sailor. Apparently it works for some. But it does not for many more. When the basic functions of an editing program fail to work as advertised and get in the way of actually editing, I can see no reason to keep using it. There are plenty or brick walls around here I can beat my head on, without having to pay $150/yr for the privilege of doing so. Al these problems are on machines with a clean install of windows 8, BTW.

Sony claims v12 of Vegas works with certain video cards and GPU and windows 8. It does not, not reliably enough to run a business on. There apparently are too many other hardware variables for them to account for - as is evidenced by all the problems reported in these forums - to make it work reliably. I have none of these troubles or problems with Premiere. It just works. The P2 files import with TC. Premiere just works as advertised. Sony Vegas 12, may or may not work as advertised. I don't need that kind of BS. Goodbye Sony...
yatesd wrote on 12/14/2012, 12:38 PM
I've been running Windows 8 for a few weeks with no issues. Its faster, more secure, and behaves much like Windows 7 with all the under the hood improvements. As a bonus, it is only a $40 download from Microsoft (limited time)

I run my 64-bit Vegas Pro on top of my 64-bit Windows 8.

That being said, I do recommend some training so you can hit the ground running. Just remember to use the "Microsoft Key" to switch between the tiled and classic interface.

Detailed review

Free training
PeterDuke wrote on 12/14/2012, 4:03 PM
"Just remember to use the "Microsoft Key" to switch between the tiled and classic interface."

Is this the same "classic" interface (i.e. XP-ish look) that you get with Win 7, or a Vista/7 aero interface?

altarvic wrote on 12/15/2012, 9:40 AM
a bit offtopic, but interesting statistics - Worldwide OS market share
Laurence wrote on 12/15/2012, 10:10 AM
I was just out Chrismas shopping last night with my son and we stumbled upon a Microsoft Store a couple of doors down from the Apple Store in the mall. It was an obvious takeoff of the Apple store but I was amazed at how impressed we were. They had the new Microsoft RTs everywhere so that you could just play with them.

Now I finally get the point of Windows 8. While it makes little sense to upgrade an older computer to this OS, when something is designed from the ground up for it, as their new "Surface" is, it is very impressive. Kind of like an iPad with a keyboard built into the cover that runs Microsoft Office in addition to the fun stuff. I can see this approach being highly successful to business men and women (like my wife) that would have little use or interest in an iPad or Android tablet.

Also the integration with the Xbox could appeal to a hard core gamers that the IOS and Android tablets and phones have missed.
yatesd wrote on 12/15/2012, 11:23 AM
A desktop tile takes you from the tiled look you see on TV back to a Windows 7 look (no Aero, this was removed to maximize speed) and the Microsoft key switches you back to the Modern Interface (tiles).

I initially upgraded just to play, but then I really started to enjoy some of the benefits. For me the biggest one was the strong integrated parental control across computers (free MS account required for syncing).

Some things will throw you initially.

Windows 7 was all about the search box. Well...Windows 8 removed the search box! Fortunately, as long as the tiled interface is up, you simply start typing.

Another thing...they removed the Start button. However if you over down in the lower right corner a thumbnail will appear. Right click on this and the classic "power user options" become available.

So they hid the power options for the sake of a cleaner interface but did not remove them...

One more example:

Open IE10 in tiled mode and it defaults to full screen view, open IE10 in the classic interface and it looks just like IE9 on Windows 7.
yatesd wrote on 12/15/2012, 11:33 AM
Microsoft certainly isn't perfect, but I am always surprised what Apple can do without people complaining.

Imagine if Microsoft was the one to start the trend of:

- Only allowed their software to install on their hardware (made in China)

- Used only proprietary connectors to limit competition and keep prices high

- Took a 30% cut on apps and controlled who was allowed to play

- Limited power users ability to interact with the OS
cbrillow wrote on 12/15/2012, 2:04 PM
I upgraded 2 Windows XP machines to Windows 8. Despite their having XP loaded on them previously, they were not exceptionally old hardware. They were machines that I built in the last couple of years, loaded with OEM versions of XP SP3. So making the jump to Windows 8 Pro for $40, plus the Media Center for free, made a lot of sense to me. The machines run faster and are more secure that when running the venerable, but soon-to-be-retired XP.

Yeah, there are some annoyances with the "Metro" interface, the lack of a Start button and having to dig around for the Shutdown options, but all of these are EASILY overcome.

It was a no-brainer for me, and enabled me to purchase V12 the other day for $99, now that I have a 64-bit platform to run it on.

NickHope wrote on 12/15/2012, 11:16 PM
For me the biggest problem with upgrading to it now is that it seems Media Manager doesn't run on it.
Glenn Thomas wrote on 12/16/2012, 5:01 AM
Windows 8 is pretty rock solid. It's good to see the translucent aero look gone for good and replaced by windows with just a single colour. That's more minimal than Windows 95 with the navy blue stripe.

But being able to update for just $14.99 was a no brainer. The start screen is just a replacement for the start menu. The touch functionality never gets in the way because I never use it.

Essentially it's just like an updated Windows 7. And to all the people who are too scared to upgrade, there's nothing to be afraid of at all. I upgraded my wife's parents really slow 5 year old AMD laptop to Windows 8 the other day, and they love it! It runs fast on there, and they keep talking about how it's like a new computer they now have.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/16/2012, 5:26 AM
> "For me the biggest problem with upgrading to it now is that it seems Media Manager doesn't run on it."

Is the Media Manager even part of Vegas Pro 12.0? It's not mentioned at all on the Import, Export & Media Management page and it even says that tagging has now been moved to the Project Media window. When I looked at the downloads/updates for All Vegas Updates the Media Manager only shows up under Vegas Pro 9.0 and 8.0. Has it quietly not been part of Vegas Pro 10.0, 11.0, & 12.0 although it continues to work or is it just that it hasn't been updated since Vegas Pro 9.0? I don't know, I'm just speculating here.

I have the Media Manager working fine in Windows 8. You just need to tell Windows to stop complaining about incompatibilities with SQL 2005 and keep installing and eventually it all gets installs and works. Maybe there will be problems later but it seems to work for now.

BTW, when I run the Windows 8 Upgrade Assistant it lists Media Manager 2.4 as being compatible but suggests that SQL Server 2005 be replaced with SQL Server 2012.

NickHope wrote on 12/16/2012, 10:11 AM
Great that it can be made to work JR.

I have Media Manager working in 8.0 and 10.0 and I think others have it working in 11.0.

It's still an item under Options > Preferences > General in 10.0.

I discovered that you can drag and drop files from it into any other program just like from Windows Explorer, so I can imagine me running it with any NLE, even if I have to run Vegas 8 or 10 to start it up.

Can users of 11.0 and 12.0 please tell us if this item is still there?

Former user wrote on 12/16/2012, 10:16 AM
"Can users of 11.0 and 12.0 please tell us if this item is still there?" I can't speak for Vegas 11, but It's still there in Vegas 12.
gbohn wrote on 12/16/2012, 11:10 AM
>I 've been running Windows 8 for a few weeks with no issues. Its faster, more secure,
> and behaves much like Windows 7 with all the under the hood improvements.

For me the problem is that all the improvements in the world 'under the hood' don't help if they are negated by the changes to the User interface.

As a professional, I've used my computers for productive work for many years now. With Windows 8 (compared to Windows 7) I thought that things are at best 'not better' and at worst more time consuming to do the same thing.

When Windows 7 came along, I thought to myself that this was an improvement and would make me more productive. For the effort expended, it would be worth it.

With Windows 8, it's a learning curve to try and get back to where I was. And then, once I was there, things were harder than they used to be. To add insult to injury MS purposely removed or left out things that would have allowed you to use the old interface more effectively.

IMHO, this UI might be suited to a phone, but it sure isn't suited to a professional desktop system...
JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/16/2012, 11:24 AM
> "Can users of 11.0 and 12.0 please tell us if this item is still there?"

Oh yea, it still there and View | Media Manager is still there in Vegas Pro 11.0 & 12.0 as well so what am I talking about? (Duh!) Of course it's still supported. I just though it was odd that it's not listed as a download with Vegas Pro 12.0 anymore.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/16/2012, 11:41 AM
> "As a professional, I've used my computers for productive work for many years now. With Windows 8 (compared to Windows 7) I thought that things are at best 'not better' and at worst more time consuming to do the same thing."

This is my impression as well from the limited time I've used it to test all of our plug-ins with Windows 8 to make sure that they work. Everything was several steps harder to do. Microsoft has lost their way making it harder for content creators to get their job done in favor of content consumers. There was absolutely no reason to remove the Start button. IMHO, it was a bone-headed move forcing everyone to use their "Hello Kitty" interface (especially 99% of users who only have a mouse).

As I said, I ran the Windows 8 Upgrade Assistant and it showed me what programs would not work or rather that I needed a "paid" upgrade for and I decided it wasn't worth wasting my money on programs that I already have and work perfectly well on Windows 7 just to run them on Windows 8. One of the annoying things for me is that the Windows 7 widgets are no longer supported on the desktop. I like having a clock, calendar, and my CPU and GPU temps and loads on the side of my desktop for when I'm rendering. Why couldn't they just leave the desktop users alone?

So to answer the original question: I see no reason for a "Professional" to upgrade to Windows 8 because there is no business case to support it. It will cost you more money in upgrading applications with a negative impact on productivity. There is no up-side for a business to do this; no benefit that I can see.