riredale, you really had made an excellent point in there. I wanted you to express it in one line that would spring off the page at SCS.

Cheers

Grazie

riredale said:
"I was just wondering at what point Vegas became more tender."

If you look at any field of engineering it'll dawn on you that you can get away with something to a certain point and from then on it becomes increasingly unstable. That's the point where you have to either rethink the whole approach to the problem or await the development of new technology.

In the case of Vegas I'd suggest the real problem goes back to the day when Sonic Foundry decided to add vision to an audio multi-tracker. Certain assumption were made about how vision could be treated. That was mostly fine for years but then they reached a tipping point, probably when HDV burst onto the scene and further compounded by things such as OFX. The world of audio also moved on and that too posed challenges that were just papered over.

Bob.

Perhaps I'm in LUCK that this #486 build is stable for me (again, 'for me') in spec System #1.

The Catalyst driver was left in driver 12.8 (August 2012), and Win7's latest update is October. After having one update, the system is just stable..., but also, after that, one of the update causes extreme error, not just Vegas, but the OS itself, no ATI card found..., etc. (forgot the detail).
In previous experiences, between Jan - August 2012, I was working with VP10e. Although I have VP11#683, due to common crashes, similar, I didn't do any editing in VP11. All main editing is done in VP10e - cpu only, but rendering session is done in VP11, with the help of GPU.
You may consider this workflow in VP12 too if you didn't have any trouble during rendering: Turn off gpu during editing session, turn on for final rendering.

But, one thing to note, I only use all internal video FXs, NewBlue FX is rarely used, don't have any BorisFX etc.

Atom12, I have the same thought around these whole issues, maybe RAM or Memory traffic. Also, possibly the program didn't "comfortable cooperating" with any 3rd party plug-ins and with many GPU hardware (or just their driver?).
--- Previous experience long time ago : Before I came to Vegas 8, I used to do editing in Matrox RTX100 system, with Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 and 2.0 - in early days, the crashes is acceptable, but after many times run, crash issue has become extremely frustrating. For experiment, I tried test run Adobe Premiere Pro 2 software only, without any involvement of Matrox driver / effects, the software-only run very stable! --- Matrox RTX100 installation was very tricky and requires specific hardware - need motherboard A, Matrox video card, etc.

If we can have direct chat with Vegas developers, or perhaps by periodic gathering event, we able to know how the architecture of this program, and we can also try avoiding those issues too so no more unfinished frustration questions like this...


Add:
Bob: That was mostly fine for years but then they reached a tipping point, probably when HDV burst onto the scene and further compounded by things such as OFX. The world of audio also moved on and that too posed challenges that were just papered over.
If this is the case, then, it is time for Vegas to be more focused on one area.
Again, as we didn't know how this program is developed, we can only make a guess/expectation with what is going on, if the base source code is the same since the beginning, complete rewrite or complete recode from zero is suggested.
Better not having annual announcement with all problems exist. It is better for new version released a bit longer, but more stable, more focused program. But just don't follow FCP7 and FCPX dilemma!

Are we 100% certain that many/most Vegas crashes are not due to some simple hardware failure such as ram? We all know that video editing can eat up enormous amounts of ram. Have users reporting non-rendering crashes thoroughly vetted all of their ram via utilities such as Memtest? For hours and hours? I know ram sticks can be notoriously fickle. I've gone through three or four bad ones over the years, name brands too.

And for people with rendering crashes, since we know that rendering turns the CPU chip into a space heater, are they 100% certain that their system is not reaching a thermal limit by previously running something like Prime95 Orthos continuously for hours?

I know, I know...if only it were that simple...

I know, I know...if only it were that simple...
That's the problem..., we can only make an estimate to all problems by within ourselves here.

In previous build, during multicam, with 2 cameras on screen, Vegas crash after some times, now in #486, this issue fixed. This is just playback. Curve issues, fixed...,
BUT, new problem come : RED clipboard, and so does all of so many previous issues, 'it was good before'.

There is 1001 possibilities or combination for a program, to get crash.

@riredale, I've always been suspicious of new RAM and on both builds I'm running Vegas on now ran Memtest for 3 days before loading software. One chip was returned when errors began occurring near the end of day 2. It definitely does happen.

I can't speak to rendering errors because I have very few with GPU off, but I do think memory traffic logjams due to the coding is causing a lot of crashes during editing. I will try to do a test soon to see if I can determine where the project size cliff is on my systems. 20 - 30 min AVCHD projects loaded with plugins are a joy - even with temp timelines stretching over an hour. Somewhere above that (haven't had time to determine exactly where it is) things get flaky and plugin GUIs start misbehaving. I know it's time to slow down my pace and start flicking ctrl-S.

Any program should be coded to cope even when memory is taxed and the interface starts slowing down a bit if paging is needed. It seems that when the memory starts getting repeated I/Os when full, the data traffic cop eventually curls up in a fetal position.

And obviously, even this seems a different animal than many of the other problems some are seeing on the smallest projects. Bob may have summed it up best.

I've re-installed VP12, it runs but I'm not going to use it for anything important, I don't trust it.

"I know ram sticks can be notoriously fickle. I've gone through three or four bad ones over the years, name brands too."

Even when the RAM is working correctly it is not dependable.
Ever since Vegas moved to 64bit I have been warning of this issue. Enterprise class mobos support ECC RAM and for a very good reason. Pretty well every turnkey solution I've seen on offer for running Adobe's lineup uses ECC RAM.

Every once in a while a bit will flip in RAM. Such single bit changes can wreck havoc. Some conventional RAM included parity checking but I don't think Windows is written fo handle a parity error. ECC RAM not only detects the error but corrects it, the OS doesn't need to get involved. That said a good OS should be logging such errors as they may indicate a pending disaster.

Bob.

Myerz

What did you do differently that made it run?

riredale... I wish it was RAM. But, in most cases, it is not. I have Corsair Dominator RAM... very high quality. When I upgraded to this memory, my system became more stable, but not Vegas.

I agree with whoever was mentioning that they feel Vegas handling of memory is the problem... Vegas degrades over time... load a few projects again and again and you can actually see corruption.. certain clips turn red and are unreadable. Uncompressed AVI show static sections in preview. Restart Vegas and load the same project... all is better. And the whole Dynamic RAM Preview value fiasco.... increase it to preview sections of your project, then wait years to render unless you drop it down again... Although I haven't seen the degrading render bug from this for some time. I feel the memory issues just shuffle problems around from one area to another.

A complete overhaul of the code is needed. I shudder to think what kind of mess it is after continual forced releases in September. I wouldn't wish that code base upon my worst enemies.

I haven't used Vegas for 3 months now after it let me down big time on a fairly simple job.

I made the leap to Premiere and it's proven to be very stable and something I can bill real hours on again.

I mention this because I had to go back to a project for some fixes and outputs and my 4 hour quote ended up costing me over 20 hours and a lot of excuses and pushed deadlines.

I checked in here to get that clipbrowser deal (and you should too: $200?!? for free) and checked in. I'm actually amazed Vegas is still around as a product.

That clipbrowser link:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/contentbrowser

Thanks a million for the link.
That's an easy one to miss, I was a very early adopter of XDCAM EX and Sony's Clipbrowser is in regular use.
This needs wider publicity.

That said it doesn't sit well with me that this is going to eventually cost $200.
This is going to create issues for our rental business.

Bob.

Is this ONLY for Sony cams?

G

"Is this ONLY for Sony cams?"

Reading the description I would strongly suspect so.
This is an "add on" for Sony cameras for owners of those Sony cameras, not Vegas, so I would not anticipate any effort being made to support cameras from other manufacturers.
Of course, by accident it might work with other manufacturers cameras. Reading the terms and conditions though, sorry you're not even entitled to a free copy to find out.

Bob..

I ask, Bob, 'cos it says to register your camera!? However, I'm presently using the Clip Briwser with my Canon XF300.

G

Bob, Grazie, etc., the news of Sony charging for this is upsetting to say the least :(
That's one reason I grabbed version 2.6 and keep it in my Dropbox folder for anyone who wants/needs it.
XDCAM Clip Browser 2.6
It's 44.5 MB. in size so be patient when downloading it.

Mike

Mike, the one I have is XDCAM "Clip Viewer" ver 2.30.

I read the docs on this new one and requires a registration of the camera - mine's a Canon!

G

I too have XDCAM Clip Browser 2.6, so I am wondering what does Content Browser do beyond this? Should I bother getting it? Note, I shoot XDCAM EX via my JVC GY-HM750.

Peter

Grazie, you have my sympathies. I have the same camera that Peter (TechDiver) does and the link I posted is all I need.

Mike

I used the link provided by rdolishny and, clicked the "Click here for more details" link, filled out the fields and submitted it. They send me a serial number. No camera details anywhere.

It does allow a lot more options than the normal version 2.6 clip browser for all the new XDCAM, NXCAM and XAVC formats. If you only need the XDCAM EX options, like me, I do not think it offers anything new.

Just my opinion. Clip Browser does all I need.

NB. The request did add the Content Clipbrowser to me My Software list along with the provided serial number.

Hope that helps
Willem.