Comments

riredale wrote on 10/21/2015, 2:32 PM
Good points.

Many of you guys are probably doing stuff way, way beyond my meager efforts, but as I evolved down the Vegas path over the years I stopped at V9 because it was trouble-free and the succeeding versions had features I didn't need.

But I agree that it's a dilemma for the software industry. On the hardware side, stuff can always be made faster, smaller, and/or more energy-efficient. But once the software "tool" matures, now what? How do the coders stay in business except by growing the user base? Which is why I assume the others have gone to a subscription model. Sorry, older "stand-alone" versions not sold any more. Current version? Pay a little each year to keep using it.
Chienworks wrote on 10/21/2015, 2:47 PM
Another good point in favor of continuing to sell older versions.

Imagine if V9 were still sold and very minimally supported, as in you can get help with purchasing, downloading, and installing, but that's it, and the price was under $100. It may not sound like much, but imagine how much pirating would go down. At that price probably a lot of the illegal users would feel the nudge to go legit. Every now and then it could pop up a window on startup telling you how much you're missing by not getting the latest version, and offer some discount for upgrading, which illegal users don't get so this is another incentive to go legit.

For those who prefer stability over the new glitz, this would also be attractive. If i were setting up a production suite i might consider buying a dozen V9 licenses and know everyone can just get to work without issues instead of a very few V13 licenses that might be less stable. Or, maybe i've got a bunch of XP workstations i'd like to repurpose, taken out of the office we've upgraded and move them into the student media lab. I couldn't install V13 on them so that would be a sale lost, but If i could purchase V9 licenses i'd be able to use them.

Just seems like a discount sale of an old version is better than not selling the new one.
OldSmoke wrote on 10/21/2015, 3:20 PM
I am early adopter and supporter of new things to come, if not, we all would still sit on horses and reading books by candle light.... ahh the good old days!

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Red Prince wrote on 10/21/2015, 4:26 PM
@JohnyRay: Oh, get off your high horse. I also did not buy Vegas 13. The reason? It either refused to install or run (I don’t remember which one anymore) on my system. Until that point I always upgraded to a new version as soon as it became available. Even if I did not see much of a difference among them. But why on Earth would I buy something I cannot use?

It is not the job of a customer to blindly support a company. It is the job of the company to make sure the customer keeps buying by providing a product the customer can use.

Of course, if Vegas Pro 14 comes out and installs and works on my system, I will buy it.

Adam

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

PeterDuke wrote on 10/21/2015, 5:53 PM
"@JohnyRay: Oh, get off your high horse."

It would be more helpful AND courteous to point out which statements you disagree with and why, rather than use such inflammatory language.

He has said more eloquently what I was trying to say in my last post.

Was that a deliberate typo on your part?
OldSmoke wrote on 10/21/2015, 6:18 PM
It either refused to install or run (I don’t remember which one anymore) on my system.

If the two systems you have listed are your current systems then I think I do understand why you are having issues.

I personally do not have any issues and I also never issues even when VP11 came out and GPU acceleration was introduced.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

risce1 wrote on 10/21/2015, 6:35 PM
regarding statements about not buying versions of vegas and that's the problem...lol..that is totally ridiculous... what I trade my car in when there is an updated model...go buy every software I have latest update..come on...oh a new version of my camera came out ...gotta buy it so they don't discontinue making cams..lol really ridiculous on so,so, many levels.
xdcamer wrote on 10/21/2015, 6:43 PM
100% correct risce1. Nobody upgrades to every version. I like to up keep alright but i dont change my car, cameras or nle every year....who does? Is everyone rushing to get there hands on 4k tv's and bin their 1080 hdtv... I think not.
VidMus wrote on 10/21/2015, 6:52 PM
risce1 said, "regarding statements about not buying versions of vegas and that's the problem...lol..that is totally ridiculous..."

Then how does SCS make money?


mphelan said, "...Nobody upgrades to every version."

I did!

VMP wrote on 10/21/2015, 7:11 PM
When clients stop buying a companies specific product that would mean that the company can't make any money anymore by selling that specific product
(Vegas Pro in this case).

So they would then probably: stop making that product, or make something new and hope that sells.

If you HAVE bought their latest product, supported them till the last moment and they still go down, then you have the right to complain about it, that nothing new is coming out next. Because you have supported them till the last moment.

But if you have not supported them recently, then don't complain about their future plans.
Because you are not supporting them at this moment either. No-sales plus piracy kills Vegas Pro.

How and where are they supposed to get their money from for Vegas Pro? It must come from us. WE are their clients.
WE are the funders of Vegas Pro. If we stop funding, it dies.

VMP

Kinvermark wrote on 10/21/2015, 7:37 PM
Of course, one could argue that "supporting" a company by purchasing versions that don't really have much value to you is only delaying the inevitable and encourages mediocre product development.

In my opinion, the root cause is not having a strong vision of what the next big thing really is. What users want and need even if they don't know it! Moments of genius that brought products like Vegas and ACID. Very hard to do, which is why visionaries like Steve Jobs are so rare and valuable.

Software rental models and other marketing tweaks are just short term fixes - you need vision.

Hopefully the Catalyst suite takes what is great about Vegas and adds some genius of its own.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/21/2015, 8:29 PM
> "Nobody upgrades to every version"

Adobe CC customers DO! LOL :-D (sorry, i couldn't resist)

> "I like to up keep alright but i dont change my car, cameras or nle every year....who does?"

Cars and Cameras have a longer shelf life than the single year that video software usually does but I would bet that if everyone kept their current car for 10 years... the car companies would go out of business.

Besides, the car and camera analogy doesn't hold. Car companies don't give you a new car at a deep discount because you already own one of their cars. Wouldn't it be great if I could upgrade my $21,000 2014 Mazda 3 to a brand new 2016 Mazda 3 for only $7,300! That's the 65% discount that Sony gives it's existing customers. It'd be at the Mazda dealership tomorrow getting my new car!!! Do you know what Mazda does do? They give existing customers a $500 discount. Wow. How compelling (NOT!) It's not the same business model as software.

If you read my post carefully you would see that I said that missing a version or two is expect and probably wouldn't impact the cash flow that much, but when someone says that they only purchased 3 out of the last 13 versions... or still using a 4 year old version... I'm sorry that's not a sustainable business model. Don't forget... I'm in the software business. I sell plug-ins for Vegas Pro. Trust me... the last thing I want to see is Vegas Pro go away! ...and I have no plans of abandoning my loyal customers so I'm not going anywhere either.

I'm sure that piracy adds something to the equation as well, as someone pointed out. There are a LOT of posts on the Creative COW from kids wanting to make videos of their Xbox game play to post to YouTube. I'm guessing that some of those kids didn't pay $399 for their copy of Vegas Pro. (just a guess, I have no proof) Maybe you can entice some pirates with a lower price for older versions but by and large, people who use pirated software will never buy it at any price. (just my theory)

Whether it's lack of sales from piracy... or lack of sales from existing customers not upgrading, or new customer not buying... It all boils down to sales. Without sales, there is no development.

From what we can tell... Sony has not dropped support for Vegas Pro. They said that they would continue to maintain it and "evaluate" the market for it. They are also working on a new Catalyst Suite product line. I'm sure that Catalyst Suite will grow into a fine NLE. We'll just have to wait and see.

Your Vegas Pro isn't going to suddenly stop working. I don't think there is a need for anyone to panic.

> "Is everyone rushing to get there hands on 4k tv's and bin their 1080 hdtv... I think not."

That's another interesting problem which you are correct about. I don't know about your cable company, by I have still have 499 channels of SD content with not nearly as much HD content! There simply is NO MARKET for 4K. It's too soon. I agree with you 100% there. People just finished upgrading to HD TV's and they are not about to ditch them for 4K ESPECIALLY after 3D TV being such a flop. I would NOT want to be a TV manufacturer right about now.

~jr
Red Prince wrote on 10/21/2015, 9:09 PM
@PeterDuke: OK, so this starts sounding like a cult. He accused someone to be a problem because he did not upgrade, but I am the one using inflammatory language.

Whatever. I’m not wasting any more of my time on this thread. If I wanted to join a cult, I’d buy a Mac. But Vegas is just a tool.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/21/2015, 11:50 PM
> "OK, so this starts sounding like a cult."

Don't mistaken "professional respect" for a "cult". Peter was just commenting that your remarks could have been stated better.

> "He accused someone to be a problem because he did not upgrade"

I did not accuse anyone. I used mphelan as an example and I explained that I wasn't singling him out but rather using his comment as an example of part of the problem. Unfortunately, in re-reading it, I did use a few !!! and that could be mistaken as being an accusation.

If you don't think that customers not upgrading isn't a problem that contributes to companies going out of business then you need to talk to Adobe because this is the *exact* reason why they went to a subscription model (i.e., because they couldn't generate enough revenue from customers that don't upgrade) Now Adobe customers pay the $588 upgrade fee every year whether they want to or not.

Adam, I appreciate that Vegas Pro 13 didn't work for you. I wasn't implying that skipping a version or two was very impactful. But you and others have brought up a good point that some people are not upgrading because of stability problems. That's a problem for Sony. That's also why I believe that a complete rewrite like Catalyst Edit is a good thing!

~jr
xdcamer wrote on 10/22/2015, 7:29 AM
Sorry Johnnyboy not being smart but its just a lot of Blah...Blah...Blah

I wasnt going to reply but wil just say...

A professional company like SCS know they wont get everyone to upgrade every year, its just silly to think this would or should happen. SCS like any other company sell different products and its their business model and total revenue that keeps them afloat.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/22/2015, 11:15 AM
@mphelan

Sorry, you were probably not a good example because you have bought 6 of the 13 versions which is not bad. I was just keying off the fact that in this thread, people were complaining that there will be no Vegas Pro 14.0 when some of them never bought 13.0 so at that point, does it even matter that 13.0 exists never mind 14.0.

~jr
Kinvermark wrote on 10/22/2015, 11:28 AM
Absolutely. To "matter" the products' new features must be relevant, useful, add value, etc.

And to achieve this, SCS needs to have a vision for the software and also have their technical "house in order", which IMHO is exactly what they are doing with a re-write to Catalyst. (see their published GPU tech papers, etc.)
Terje wrote on 10/22/2015, 5:42 PM
@FixitMad0
>> Since when do I have to purchase something I deem not necessary?

Since you stopped caring whether the company producing said product will stay in business. He is 100% correct, you can not decry the demise of a company who you refuse to do business with.

This is why, in a mature market, the subscription model is not only good for the company, it is also good for the consumer who wants said company to stay in business.

So, yeah, if you do not do business with a company you lose the right to complain when the company goes out of business since you are on of the (many) reasons they are going out of business.
Terje wrote on 10/22/2015, 5:52 PM
>> really ridiculous on so,so, many levels

Sorry, not even close to ridiculous. Your car has a life span. Your software does not. Using your head first rather than trying to ridicule others would be a nice upgrade. For you.
VidMus wrote on 10/22/2015, 10:07 PM
Terje said, "This is why, in a mature market, the subscription model is not only good for the company, it is also good for the consumer who wants said company to stay in business."

I hope people do not bite me for saying this but maybe it really IS time for SCS to consider a subscription plan of some kind.

Imagine all of the MOST important plugins, add-on's and so on as well as all of the related applications all in one low subscription price. My extremely tight budget says that I cannot possibly afford the whole thing but if there was a generous subscription plan that included everything then that would make it much more affordable to me.

This would include products that Newbluefx, Izotope and others have. Plus all of the other Pro apps that SCS has.

When it comes to new versions, there is only so much that can be offered for a mature software.

Hmm, maybe they can find a way to integrate Vegas with Catalyst. I honestly believe that can be done. But SCS needs the money to do it.

If SCS has a better cash flow then maybe they could afford to spend the needed time to fix the old bugs.

Bottom line, SCS MUST find a way to keep the money coming in or they will go out of business!

Kinvermark wrote on 10/22/2015, 10:38 PM
" My extremely tight budget says that I cannot possibly afford the whole thing but if there was a generous subscription plan that included everything then that would make it much more affordable to me."

That of course is the great illusion of rental. You can get started for less, sure, but over time you pay far far more. That's why car's, for example, are sold as "easy monthly payments of xxx" instead of give me $25,999 please. Those payments will add up to much more than the original sticker price. It's a good way to stay poor.

Adobe has enough of a monopoly on programs like Photoshop to make this work (for now) but I don't think SCS does. There are far to many alternative NLE's at present.
PeterDuke wrote on 10/23/2015, 12:46 AM
"That's why car's, for example, are sold as "easy monthly payments of xxx" instead of give me $25,999 please."

Probably a better analogy in today's world is the mobile phone purchased on a plan. When you are sick of your "old" phone after a year or so, you upgrade to the latest and greatest. (BTW there is apparently a huge hoard of old phones in drawers around the world that should be recycled. I only have one, so I am only slightly guilty!)
JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/23/2015, 6:29 AM
> "That of course is the great illusion of rental. You can get started for less, sure, but over time you pay far far more."

+1

That is exactly what's happening with Adobe. The price to upgrade Adobe CS2 thru CS6 every year was $600. The rental for Adobe CC is $588 ($49/mo). They effectively are forcing everyone to pay the upgrade fee every year. I was one of the people who upgraded every other year because I only purchased Adobe CS for After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator, and still used Vegas Pro as my NLE so I was upgrading for $600 every other year which was effectively $300 per year. So for me, Adobe CC was twice the price I was paying so I stopped buying at Adobe CS6.

I leased a car once. I will never do it again. In the end, I wound up paying $3,000 USD more than had I bought it the first day. A terrible decision.

> "Adobe has enough of a monopoly on programs like Photoshop to make this work (for now) but I don't think SCS does. There are far to many alternative NLE's at present."

This statement not to be taken lightly.

If you are a freelance graphics designer in the industry, you are expected to have Adobe Illustrator and Adobe Photoshop. You can't do what I'm doing and say that Affinity Design and Affinity Photo are just as good. That's a personal choice for me but a graphics designer is expected to work with Adobe Illustrator and Adobe Photoshop. That is an incredible monopoly that Adobe has taken advantage of and another reason why their subscription model is called "ransom-ware". They effectively have a gun to the graphics designers heads. Pay our monthly fee or you don't work in the industry! A very nasty position to be in. At least us video editors have a choice.

~jr
VidMus wrote on 10/23/2015, 9:28 AM
Still the question, what does SCS do to keep the money coming in? What does SCS REALLY do?