farss wrote on 5/10/2012, 4:40 PM
The "changing a sequence to match a clip" video was all I had time to watch.
Very impressive, someone is explaining and showing what happens. Vegas has done this feature for a decade, never has it been clearly explained and shown. It still causes confusion. I'd also say that the way it is implemented in Ppro is ahead of how it is done in Vegas. You are warned that a non compliant clip is being added, you get a choice to ignore the warning. That short video explains the "why"
The significant thing that the competition is doing is communicating with its current and potential users.

MUTTLEY wrote on 5/10/2012, 5:28 PM

Jay, you've become a bitter ex-girlfriend.

- Ray
Underground Planet
paul_w wrote on 5/10/2012, 6:27 PM
Good tutorials. If anyone is looking at CS6, i would recommend watching these to see the new features and leaning keyboard short cuts which are mentioned quite a lot too.

Seems weird posting on here about CS6 - please, hope this is not regarded as a poke in the eye to Vegas. More of an eye opener.

ushere wrote on 5/10/2012, 6:47 PM
in defense of jay, and perhaps myself in the not too distant future, 11 has turned out to be fraught with 'problems', now whether these are system related, eg. video card, gpu, or vegas related, eg. media swapping, gpu is neither here nor there - we are being sold a 'professional' nle which is far from 'professional' in terms of reliability across a range of systems. (perhaps if scs stated EXACTLY what pc specs worked PERFECTLY it might be another matter)

like jay, i make a living from video production, and in so doing expect the 'professional' tools i use to work accordingly. i certainly wouldn't use a camera that threw in previously recorded scenes, nor a mixer that sometimes threw a wobbly when using reverb. etc.,

i too have bought cs6, knowing from reading the adobe forum that it too is far from perfect, but at least there adobe is on the boards, answering questions, explaining things, and i'm sure, already working on a point update to deal with some of the more glaring problems.

in the meantime i have become very disillusioned with scs. as i've often written, i was an evangelist for vegas from the moment i started using ver 4. many, in fact nearly all of my students who actually went on to buy a 'pro' nle bought vegas - on my recommendation. that recommendation started wavering at 8.1, was given with a caveat at 9, was held back till .c with 10, and now not given at all with 11.

this sort of reminds me of 'gun from my dying hand' speech (charlton heston thing). my loyalty to any cause is totally dependent on that cause serving MY purpose. and as much time, money and experience as i have invested in vegas, if it can no longer do its job, it will no longer have my support.

as i've written before jay, you are an admirable professional, of that there is no question, my only concern is you seem very loyal to a 'tease' of a girlfriend ;-)

love and hugs and stuff late 60's
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/10/2012, 7:11 PM

I remember in the not too distant past when Ray stated that he was not loyal to any one camera maker. That's understandable. Why should it be any different with our NLEs?

The point of this post was to simply show what others are doing and accomplishing. Simply put, I am very impressed with PPro CS6, just as I used to be impressed with Vegas.

Actually, Leslie, I'm hoping to make SCS "jealous" in hopes that they'll turn things around. ;o)

Zeitgeist wrote on 5/10/2012, 7:50 PM
Vegas is still number one when it come to price feature ratio. I use vegas everyday & only the Curve plug gives me problems. Boris Reds works great with Vegas as does Red Giant, Prodad & New Blue except for the New Blue Titler which I have given up on. I think vegas is number one.

Ray take a look at your workflow if you having problems or maybe it is a compatibility issue, but Vegas works very well for me daily. Vegas renders fast & is much more intuitive than Adobe & better priced.
Chienworks wrote on 5/10/2012, 8:03 PM
Maybe the difference is that one might not go into a Panasonic professional camera forum and rave over how much better the Canon and JVC cameras are. Or, if one did, how long would one's posts and access remain?

I like to err on the side of politeness to the hosts.
[r]Evolution wrote on 5/10/2012, 8:05 PM
Track 'Control' is my biggest Pet-Peave w/ Vegas.

I hate that I can't FORCE Audio to the Bottom & Video to the Top of the Timeline when adding Media. My timelines always look messy with alternating Audio & Video tracks till I go back and Move/Arrange clips/tracks to suit normal NLE behavior.
MUTTLEY wrote on 5/10/2012, 8:13 PM

Jay, the difference between my being camera agnostic is that when I do switch brands I dont hang around my old cameras forums blasting them with a better than thou attitude, making a slew of negative comments and advertising for a rival company. I also dont go around with some chip on my shoulder because someone came out with a better one or I like something else. Sincerely, if your happy with what your using, bully for you, I'm certainly not going to try to sell you on the fact that Vegas is working perfect for me and that you should still use it because of ______________ (insert reason here), use whatever you want man, but for Gods sake just move on already.

- Ray
Underground Planet

Chienworks: You said it before I got a chance to and glad you saw the point even if you dont agree with it.
ushere wrote on 5/10/2012, 8:56 PM
well my only reason to keep mentioning my 'vacillating' is that this IS sony's board, and since i've been here and posting for some time they (if they do in the first place) might pay some attention to what's going on with one of their 'major' clients*.

*i use the term 'major' lightly, in as much as i've been buying (thus providing scs with an income stream) since ver 4 - and that's not including the many people i've persuaded to invest in vegas over the years.

btw. i should add that it's never a good idea to put all ones eggs in one basket in the first place, not sure about scs, but just looking at the history of edit station 3 and 7, xpri, etc., it doesn't bode well.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/10/2012, 9:23 PM
I'm assuming Jay wanted us to know what Adobe is doing to help their product sell.

I haven't watched the video but is it any different then Sony's free webinars that you can access right under the "support/training" section?

I like Adobe's shortcut menu to jump to parts of the video but Sony has a text Q&A of what they cover.

re: farss

I took a look at that section to match the project to the media. I had the opposite reaction to you: I thought "Doesn't it ask you when you make a new project? Seems pretty complex to me". I'm honestly shocked there's no right-click option for "match current sequence to media". That's a no brainier to me. Another of PPro's new feature is also mixing different video properties on the same sequence, this could really mess things up. I really like the way Vegas handles it: a simple "properties" button where I can choose, or I can select a media file for it to match to. The obvious issue with matching the project to the video is that it doesn't help if your render format doesn't match the project. :) I do like how they have the video not fill the entire screen when you import it, that would be really useful for graphics in Vegas (I like my video automatically full screen). A checkbox when importing would be nice.

EDIT: does PPro always seem to do a quick preview & then update the preview again with a better image? I can see pluses and minuses to that, it makes me think of the auto-quality preview that was included in Vegas 9 or 10 (which I disabled. :P )
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/10/2012, 9:26 PM

Ray, first of all you exaggerate, and I'll leave it at that. Second, I still own Vegas and use it, once in a a while. Therefore, I have just as much right to be here as you or anyone else. Thank you.

The fact is Vegas isn't working perfectly for everyone, and hasn't for some time, you and some others appear to be the exception. Just read the posts.

As I've said before, like Leslie, I wish with every fiber of my being, that SCS would get their act together and get Vegas to the NLE it used to be.

Happy Friar, you assumed incorrectly.

Laurence wrote on 5/10/2012, 11:04 PM
>when I do switch brands I dont hang around my old cameras forums blasting them with a better than thou attitude, making a slew of negative comments and advertising for a rival company.

I have been so happy the last couple of days: editing away in V11 with crashes only when I try to render. Well the project is finished and I simply can't successfully get through a render in V11, at least not an hour plus render like this project. 49% the first time, 29% the second. It's a long two camera event shoot, so each time it crashes during a render it sets me back an hour or so.

I just cut and pasted back into V10 so that I can actually finish it and go to bed. IMHO, a little frustration with SCS being expressed is more than justified at this point.

I just looked and it would cost me about $600 to upgrade from Adobe CS5 to CS6! Wow, that sucks! And that is before crossgrading all my plugins which would surely cost at least that much again.

I really don't care about all those new features. I just want the silly thing to work!
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/10/2012, 11:14 PM
Then I'm not seeing anything making me go "wow, that's amazing!".

I'm seeing some nifty keyboard editing shortcuts that Vegas doesn't have (like shifting events with the kb instead of mouse only like Vegas).

I'm seeing adjustment layers which look pretty cool but nothing a copy/paste attributes can't do.

There's a really neat exporter interface, BUT, it can be a non-issue if you get the project settings setup the way you want to export (then you know your export source). Nothing mentioned on if you can apply multiple export setups to a batch export though, that would be very handy.

The color corrector is a 3 color corrector + secondary corrector in one, which is nice and would like Vegas to do that, but it looks more like the Vegas corrector now.

The marker panel looks neat but, besides a separate program to add your markers, you can already add markers to a clip in the trimmer (his markers are our regions).

Lots of things Vegas had for a while, but with the "add the radio or clock to it and call it new" type of "new" to it.

I'd say the best thing Adobe has is the integration with it's other software. Yeah, Vegas 11 is broken (I still use 10 and it ain't broke) but Adobe pumped out broken versions of Premiere for years before they came out with CS1. While I'd love it if SCS would be allowed to buy out other companies to integrate their software, I would dread the day where I'm stuck buying whole sets of software when all I want is a single piece.

The only way SCS is going to really improve Vegas (and SF, etc) is if people stop buying every version with the hope it will work the way they want it to and buy when it does work. I'd expect that a reason Adobe made a whole new NLE for CS1 is because people were leaving 5 & 6 for other NLE's and they needed to do something drastic to bring people back.

Just vote with your wallets.
Laurence wrote on 5/10/2012, 11:21 PM
The one feature that really tempts me on Premier Pro is the speech to text conversion. Boy would that be cool if it actually worked. Anyone know if they've improved that in CS6?
Zeitgeist wrote on 5/11/2012, 1:24 AM
My phone has that. Email it to yourself, copy/paste, done. Not really an editing app feature that is needed. There is nothing ground breaking in that Adobe Video because video editing has not changed suddenly over night. Vegas is Awesome! Face the facts. All this negativity hurts sales which hurts revenue which delays bug fixes. Check YOUR workflow if you have problems or check your system. Vegas works very well.
Laurence wrote on 5/11/2012, 1:50 AM
No, releasing a program which doesn't work for a lot of people is what hurts a products reputation, not reporting problems that truly are there. I guess I should take comfort in the fact you do video and aren't working for a drug company!
ushere wrote on 5/11/2012, 1:54 AM
;-) laurence
farss wrote on 5/11/2012, 5:19 AM
"I thought "Doesn't it ask you when you make a new project?"

Um no because in the world of Ppro, AE and a lot of other NLE / Compositing apps the project is nothing, just a container for sequences or compositions and everything that goes to makeup the final sequence / composition. Vegas made some concession to this paradigm when Nesting was added but almost all of what other apps offer was neve implemented.

One thing to keep in mind, in the world of broadcast etc it is extemely rare to have to deal with media of different properties, broadcasters buy cameras in bulk so everyone works to the same standard. You should also consider that a lot of footage goes to air as shot apart from editing, no image or audio adjustment is made.

"does PPro always seem to do a quick preview & then update the preview again with a better image?"

From what I've seen it does what Vegas attempts to do in this regard way, way better. It will smoothly degrade render quality on playback so frames are never dropped. When you pause playback you get to see a full / best frame. I think for a hard core contracted editor dropping frames is just unacceptable and even I've had clients think something was seriously wrong when Vegas pulls that stunt. Also of course Ppro, FCP etc kind of forces you into using pro monitors and interfaces, expensive but that's what clients expect and once you're there then adding more monitors / projectors is quite painless.

However I digress. I don't see much value in debating feature sets, everyone's needs can differ and each supplier of solutions will target their product at different market segments. To me though Adobe are doing a much better job of communicating, love their product or hate it, they are very much in your face explaining it and helping us understand it.

Vegas could be the greatest piece of code ever written but until enough people hear about, until enough understand it, it really is moot.

Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/11/2012, 6:38 AM
"... Adobe are doing a much better job of communicating, love their product or hate it, they are very much in your face explaining it and helping us understand it. "

Thank you, Bob!

John_Cline wrote on 5/11/2012, 8:20 AM
I used Premiere for quite a while before I came across Vegas many years ago, however, I have continued to upgrade the Adobe suite mainly because I use Encore and After Effects a lot. Just for the heck of it, I decided to cut a project in Premiere today. What a monumental exercise in frustration (and a waste of time!) The simplest of tasks required FAR more steps and it probably took me three times longer to edit the project than it would have in Vegas. Even if I had been totally up to speed in Premiere, it would have taken twice as long. Also, Premiere crashed twice and I happen to be one of lucky ones for whom Vegas never crashes. I'll stick with Vegas.
JeffyB wrote on 5/11/2012, 10:11 AM
This is exactly the way I feel every time I try to use Premiere Pro for anything. I've had CS5, CS5.5 and CS6 and with every revision I keep going back hoping they have made the interface less cumbersome, but that never turns out to be the case.

The fact is, Sony Vegas on it's own has everything Premiere does and more, is as capable with audio as audition, and can even do a small amount of what After Effects can do (granted not so quickly or powerfully).

Premiere seems to be geared only towards people working on traditional video projects, not stuff dealing with lots of layered graphics, multiple cameras on screen at the same time, etc.

For instance, here is a project I recently did :

If you skip forward to one of the four camera splits, there is NO good way to quickly and efficiently do that in Premiere. The cookie cutter tool in vegas allows you to pan and crop the video clip without the cookie cutter moving too, but in Premiere the garbage mattes and track mattes move around when you pan/crop the clip, meaning that to keep the guitars level and in frame I have to not only animate/keyframe the motion properties but also the garbage matte.

Maybe I am expecting too much from a "professional" NLE but Vegas seems much more modern in it's capabilities and more suited towards web based video.
Steve_Rhoden wrote on 5/11/2012, 10:13 AM
Sony Creative Software simply needs to highlight the great features of Vegas a
heck of a whole lot more (Better marketing).

They have dropped the ball with the introduction of Vegas 11. And they do not
maintain an ungoing open communication with Vegas users at any significant
level. For the record, I am a Pro who isnt switching for several reasons, but a
lot of Vegas pros and users i know have already given up on Vegas and as i
type this, they are happily getting familiar with Premiere Pro CS6.

As i keep mentioning, i am not having issues using Vegas, but lots and lots
of users are, So im not in denial, i treat it as such and dont bother with the notion
that they are doing something wrong or they dont have the right GPU card, etc.
Much, Much more i have to say, but ill leave it there for now.
deusx wrote on 5/11/2012, 10:45 AM
Are we supposed to be impressed? 'cause I'm not getting it.

I already use most of Adobe's apps and could upgrade to Premiere very cheaply, but it looks like it would just be sitting there untouched.