OT: Apple delivers...how about Sony?

p@mast3rs wrote on 4/15/2007, 2:59 PM
So it looks like two of the major four NLEs have excellent offerings (Apple and Adobe.) Avid has their even here in a bit to tout whatever they are bringing to the editing world. Which leaves Sony as the last major NLE to yet announce anything yet.

I think there is slim to no chance that we will see Vegas 8 or DVDA5 with next gen authoring tomorrow. If there is no V8, Sony better have a whopping announcement or it could very well see its competitors distance themselves in the NLE race.

From hdforindies.com regarding FCP Studio 2 offerings:

NEW PRODUCT

FINAL CUT SERVER

=media asset management and collaboration
-works for 2 person collaboration up to multi-national news org
-cross platform client
-producer on a PC has a client as well "stuck on a PC"
-over 100 file types recognized
-auto proxy generation
-keyword searching
-sophisticated access control
-
Worlfkow automation:
-customizable templates
-watch and respond system
-review and approve tools
-automated encod and publish
-is an event based system, triggering as things happen
-if producer needs to be alerted to review, email gets sent out
-baked Compressor into it - can control delivery from Final Cut Server

FINAL CUT INTEGRATION;
-time saving shot selection tool
-proxy rough cut editing
-save as FCP project
-offline/online workflow

when you check out a low res proxy of a project, can connect and conform back to high res project, automated system

-KCAL in LA been testing for a couple of months
-they've bet big on Final Cut Server as a foundation for their system
-WATCHING VIDEO FROM KCAL - HD news
-up to 16 individual units, 300-400 promos/week
-promo world, assets come from all over
-can search by date, person who created, etc., can play back PC or Mac (implies codec stuff)
-can mark notes & communicate to editor/graphics person
=screening tool - can kick out a small QT file,
-being able to play realtime HD in quantity was necessary (more hints of codecs)
-everybody is able to be in/out of projects without waiting on next domino to fall, can work faster
-decided they wanted to be aggrressive - $999 w/10 concurrent licenses
-$1999 UNLIMITED concurrent users
-available this summer



FINAL CUT STUDIO:


====================

-wanted it to be the biggest upgrade ever
-FINAL CUT STUDIO 2
-Final Cut Pro 6
-
PRO RES 4:2:2 codec
-10 bit 4:2:2
-full raster
-uncompressed project was 1TB, converting to highest quality was 170GB
-bandwidth efficiency, gotta work across a SAN OK
-color space headroom - 4:2:0 converted to 4:2:2
-support for next gen devices
-edit friendly
-translates whatever may come
-SONY - introducing new HDCAM SR system, 1080p60 w/ProRes 4:2:2 will be a good solution according to Sony
-to use that 1080p60 stuff, want it in an edit friendly format - can capture as ProRes 422
-PANASONIC - betting big on AVC Intra, ProRes 422 is an "outstanding post-production format for Panasonic's new genration of AVC-Intra based camcorders"
-RED (FIRST TIME THERE'S APPLAUSE) - VIDEO
Red Video
-edit 4K w/ease & elegance
-2 ways to work w/4K files in FCP
-native Redcode for DI finishes
-ProRes for broadcast work
-can plug 4K footage, plug into laptop, convert to ProRes 422 (!!!!)
-CineAlta cameras - MacBook Pro running Final Cut, how to get F900 into
-NEW HARDWARE - AJA device to get HD-SDI into FW800
-looks like a little G5 w/a handle on it, crapload of ports on the backside
-"I/O HD" hardware
-has ProResHD codec IN THE HARDWARE can move 10b422 ProRes - SD/HD up/down/cross conversion all in hardware
-10"x12"x15" or so guesstimated size based on seeing it
-PRICE? introduced at $3495, available in July
-exciting to work with upstarts like Red, AJA

OPEN FORMAT TIMELINE:
-mis formats
-mis resolutions
-mix framerates
-5 minutes after using it, you stop worry, IT JUST WORKS
-Smoothcam - remove unwanted camera motion right in FCP
-background optical flow analysis
-adjust parameters

EDITABLE MOTION TEMPLATES:
-access Motion templates directly w/in FCP
-can access templates in timeline in fCP
-can change instances to edit the master - IS LIKE STYLE SHEETS
-Motion is more integrated, and is a part of, Final Cut Pro

DEMO:
-Open format timeline, Paul demoing
-drag a file to timeline, FCP can set timeline to match
-22 MB/sec for 1080p24 4:2:2 ProRes
-if you drag a DVCPRO HD to timeline that is 1920x1080, it'll scale and aspect ratio correct on the fly to make it right
-mixing uncompressed w/ProRes to DVCPRO with a realtime effect, UNCOMPRESSED 10 BIT with realtime effects
-have interlaced DV footage, drop on timeline that is progressive, it just figures it all out
-could always send video to Motion, now can bring graphics to you - add templates from Motion are in FCP, can Superimpose, Overwrite, or Insert
-opens in Viewer to edit the text in FCP
-(has an orange render bar)
-unrendered Motion Template over 10b uncompressed video, plays...but w/low frame rate
-when change a template, ripples through EVERYWHERE you used that template - style sheets!
-FXPlug stuff - drop a plugin onto timeline, GPU realtime stuff
-plays back in pretty damn real time
-ProRes vs. Uncompressed video (using DCI StEM footage) - has split screen, plas it fullscreen
-the sample they are showing us, that I don't see a difference in, is TENTH generation - they've encoded and reincoded
-
back to Paul Saccone

MOTION -
-=======

embracing 3D
-multiple cameras and light sources
-intuitive navigation
-adding paint
vector based paint- particles, pics, etc.
-pressuure pen, speed sensitive
-edit strokes in 3D space
-apply behaviors to strokes
-
MATCH MOVING
-simple now
-autmatically follows the path of any animated object
-suggests points and inltelligently creates motion paths for video
-associate a path to an object, it handles it
-track, match, move on

RETIMING:
==========
-retiming w/out keyframing
-hold frame, set speed and other creative timing effects
-slip and slide retiming effects
-isn't tied to the piece you started with, can apply behavior elsewhere

AUDIO BEHAVIORS;
-aimations respond to the soundtrack
-control animations based on volume and frequency (After Effects already did some of this years ago, but was work)
-assign to any parameter on any object

DEMO OF THE NEW MOTION:
=======================
content library in Motion - tons of new stuff
-animated lines & widgets and stuf
-can animate the details of those library things to find the track you want it to effect, set scale to amplify it
-no copying of keyframing, is just a behavior
-tracking - new behaviors for tracking behaviors
-tracking points gives a 4x zoom, just shows the zoom
-hold down option and it shows you good tracking points WOWOWWOWOWOWOOWW
-Motion analyzes and figures out color space and subsampling etc. FOR YOU
-can also track in 3D space, does cool 3D parallax thing
-true 3D stuff in Motion:
-can move "observer" camera of scene w/out altering the shooting cameras
-while working in perspective view, get a live feedback of the camera's view
-there's sweep and dolly behaviors for cameras that do those move for you
-all behaviors have a little text description as well
-cameras can have targets to watch "scenes" that you set up
-as a former 3D guy, this is SOOOOOOOO much easier - isolate the movements by type not just axis
-Motion's new paint tool to add a "swoosh" around the text
-can create a paint stroke from anything, as well as their existing large library
-a lighting effect can be a brush
-can alter every attribute
-can edit the path of the stroke to move the stroke through 3D space
-can click a "make particles" based on a glowy bit
-have full controls of particle system
-but can click the "3D" button for particles to make them 3D (coooool, and applause)
-can alter the size of the emitter - be a point or even a box
-IMPRESSIVE realtime performance!

AUDIO:

SOUNDTRACK PRO - marriange between picture and audio
-3-up video HUD for placing clips (of audio)
-precisely align
-
Advanced Take Management for dialog replacement
-bring in multiple tracks and composite multiple track out of portions that work for you, take the composite down the road, and be able to dive back in and change the settings of that comosite
-surround sound embraced at core
-surround mixing
-single project for 5.1 an dstereo
-intuitive panner w/automation
surround sound plugins
-library of over 1000 music tracks and sound effects in 5.1
-good panning tools for speaker to speaker controlled by mouse in realtime as you do it
CONFORM:
-sync changes between picture and sound
-see diffferences highlighted in the grpahical view
audition, then accept or override changes
-if the edit changes for picture, can go through changes to accept or reject, or just let it work to move all the stuff where it is supposed to go

Soundtrack Pro 2 Demo

common to make fades in audio
-just drag corners
-drag clips over each other to do cross fade
-to detail crossfades, double click and you have a fade selectior HUD
-linear/log/s-curves/etc.
-location dialog - lots of potential problems
-showing a base thump in a clip (bumped microphone)
-waveform editor for any clip
-hit tilde key and get tool you need under mouse cursor (nice!)
-can scrub and find the problem
-have a frequency spectrum view
-can see brights for amplitude and frequencies
-can draw a box around an area in frequency spectrum view to edit just that part
-and it fixes the thump REALLY well
-and it is all non-destructive, so is all editable
-if there's a bad clip from set, they have 3 ADR options to try to fix it
-they can do a multi-clip take
-can take the 3 editors into multi-take editor to find which one works better
-can create a composition that will fix it
-with the take editor, can cut into the phrases and drag around and do fades to find which portion of which take you want to use....and all the bits and pieces will remain with the clip - at any time can go back and fix, if goes into a different comp, that all comes along for the ride

after dialog, want sound effects
-ships w/over 2000 royalty free sound effects
-does a search for "door" to get a door slam sound
-traditionally is tough to sync, gotta add a marker on picture to target where I want it to go, there is a multi-point video HUD
-get a 3up view for before, after, and where the mouse is
-didn't catch how all that works, but looks very cool, quickie drag and do
-drag & drop it in, drag around, hold donw V-key, and it is done to sync an effect to the shot - yeah is FAST
-
(LIVE COMMENT FEEDBACK - THE I/O HD BOX IS $3495, WE DON'T HAVE PRICING ON FINAL CUT STUDIO 2 YET...dunno if you need other stuff for converting to ProRes - I/O HD does it in realtime, but how long does it take without? Dunno yet)

-he's doing audio stuff - the updated revised picture edit comes in, and get to see an overview w/changes
-conform audio to adapt to picture changes is quick and easy, w/overview view that makes it simple to see what's up and where things have changed, can review it to make sure it all correct before committing and finding out might be incorrect
-has many dish panners, double click and get a new HUD that is NICE - get a circle that oyu can drag source around in the circle, and it shows you what speakers those are getting mapped to
-can do it live in realtime too - so play it back, and move the audio source sound around
-cranks the LFE knob to make the fireworks hit be heavier
-can have surround and stereo mix in same project - can optionally use surround panners for the full project
-stereo mix lives separately from 5.1 mix, but stays all in sync (nice!)
-over 150 royalty free sourround mix music beds for temp tracks or final delivery
-over 1000 new surround sound effects
-when you pull in surround clips, all 6 channels come along for the ride with all channels along for the ride - is just ONE thing to drag around and control
-professional multi-track editing,

COMPRESSOR 3:
=============

-is a major item now
-they use it inhouse to do all content for iTunes Store
-MPEG-2 broadcast streams
-iPod/AppleTV presets
-Telestream Episode Pro for VC-1, WMV, FLV, GXF, & MXF as a third party plugin to drop into place (big deal)
-timecoe overlays (!!!)
-audio and video fade in/out
-animated Motion watermorks (even unrendered Motion stuff)
-w/an 8 core station
-10 min HDV video to H.264 for iPod, takes 16:45 to do w/version 2
-compressor 3 talks to each thread on SAME BOX to 6:08 - 2.8X
-faster than realtime encoding

RICHARD TANNER talking about compressor 3

import a project as was done in FCP
-in compressor, can see markers from timeline
-new looking UI
-presets are better organized, defined by targets/presets for devices
-for the stuff you use over and over
-can create a custom folder with all your custom presets
-can drag it onto a clip to start the batch and applies all the presets
-can inspect settings as applied to a clip
-new features - can see source and change the settings for that clip
-16:9 content for iPod, for instance - can over-ride to make 4:3 if wished (stretched or cropped?)
-filters in Compressor are new
-Watermark & timecode generator
-timecode generator - can be either to start at zero or can pick up from original source clip (or from timeline for first option I take it)
-watermark - can "choose" a Motion project or a QT file
-doesn't even have to be pre-rendered
-a renderless pipeline between motion and compressor
-for the chapter markers in FCP timeline, can select one and open the edit window for it. HAve a # of devices on my list - can be relevant to all of them
-can give the chatper marker a name and URL or even an image - can be picked up from a file, or from a frame (for podcasts to pick the poster frame you want)
-iTunes will show the URL and the poster frame
-in System Prefs, can select # of instances (aka cores) to run 8 instances of Compressor to run one per core (this is in Qmaster settings)
-there's a badass core gauge that looks like %age utilization, and they swing up till all 8 processors get up to 95-100%
-in iTunes- chapter points all work with a pop-up, links that you typed in will take you out of iTunes to the web to the URL you set if you click in iTunes
-can publish to any device on the planet now
-

PRICING - IS STILL $1299 for Final Cut Studio 2
$499 upgrade from Final Cut Studio
$699 to upgrade from ANY version of Final Cut Pro
AVAILABLE NEXT MONTH


Back in 1999 in Final Cut Pro 1.0
-pro editing was $100K back then

Pro solution for color grading

-pro coloring is upwards of $100K
"SO not OK!"
-want to do for color grading what they've done for editing

simply called
COLOR
(this is where Final Touch went)

-realtime pro color grading for the FCP editor
-inherent all the goodies of FCP for color
-Coen Brothers have been FCP since 2003
-video of Coen Brothers talking aobut color
-color is an element you use in a film
-in Oh Brother, was first DI process
-only way to target what they wanted
-have done DI since then
-looks just like Final Touch - seeing footage
-the UI looks exactly like what I've seen before in Final Touch HD
-3D color viewer is new (some kind of 3D graph of color)
-(and that 3D think plays in realtime!)
-Send To Color is an option in FCP
-
logical task based workflow
-starts w/primaries, on to secondaries, then color FX, then geometry
-all same as final touch HD was
-3 way color corrector
-rgb & luma curves
-lfit/gamma gain
-3D scopes
-pull mattes based on crhoma, luma, and saturation
-custom chaped vignettes
-custom hue & sat
-up to 8 secondaries/shot
-ColorFX - over 40 effects to start
-exposure, film grain, vignette, alpha blend, noise reduciton
chain nodes together in any order
geometry - pan and scan, apsect ration conversions, zoom/pan/rotate
-can create looks that are saved & emailed

DAVID GROSS DEMOING:
-music video working on
-got an edit in FCP
-go to file and use Send To Color
-shots drop in
-preview up in top corner, works on one screen (this is new from FTHD)
-working custom 1920x717 2.35 aspect
-have our 3 wheels as always, but now has curves below on same screen
-can make chnages to curves and get realtime feedback on screen
-secondaries room, have 8 tabs for 8 secondaries - have 9 ways to fiddle w/image
-he wants to drop a grad in, but didn't shoot it (as was wise)
-so grabs vignette tool, defaults to circle, switches it to square, can drag around in UI to get it the way he wants it
-secondaries have inside and outside control for masks, so can give secondary #1 look A inside and look B outside the selection
-so really 17 total adjustable color things - if you can't do it there, you've kinda blown it
-MY BIG QUESTION - REALTIME OUT HD-SDI?
-another shot - has grainy shot
-has an auto-balance tool (think Photoshop)
-can do sat curves - saturation control on a curve, add markers to a curve
-can do secondary color corrections - to suck the blue out
-can drag and drop grades between shots
-to play with color on his shirt, can go to preview tab and key the shot, got a 3D scope - all the pixels in 3D space, like an MRI for the picture
-can zoom in on it
-like a lamp-post - whites at the top, shadows at the bottom, and colors in a ring around
-a good way to learn how to read color
-can see the blues of his shirt in the scope
-can "paint" your key (like FTHD did), but dragging the eyedropper along, see the matte appear - drag it over different colors to add'em to key
-then have a "cage" around the pixels in the 3D scope, can edit in the 3D scope to isolate
-but it changed his hair, so added a vignette to isolate and soften, so only does shirt not hair
-another shot - geometry room - can pan & scan and rotate
-drag & dropped a look from another shot, made a secondary, made a vignette, so adds a b-spline custom shape
-can light more flatly as you shoot, can then tweak more in post - can soften the shape differently inside than out
-can even edit the b-splines of the sottness inside and out - drew one spline for the shape, added softness, THEN that made new splines for inside out, and THOSE can be edited on a point by point basis (and perhaps keyframed?)
-ColorFX room - bleach bypass, etc.
-(Graeme's plugins from before for FTHD - should work here too?)
-saved looks that are node trees in Final Touch
-can drag those looks of node chains to other shots in bulk or onesy twosey
-showing before/after - major differences
-they aren't demoing exactly how it gets back, but I assume it is MUCH easier than it used to be - still have to render all your shots
-questions in my mind - realtime preview runs where? Where do we see it? Can run through BMD or AJA card in realtime for 1080p24? Can we run it through the AJA I/O box?
-SD, HD & 2K grading
-primary & secondaries, custom curves, scopes, 8 secondaries, saveable looks, naturla extension of Final Cut
-PRICE - gotta make it accessible to everyone
-IS INCLUDED IN FINAL CUT STUDIO 2
-huge applause from audience


Apple has answered Adobe's offering and will even deliver to market a month earlier with some very nice features and new programs included (Color). One has to seriously wonder just where our beloved NLE is headed. This very well could be a make it or break it NBA for Sony where it could see what market share it has decreased severely.

Comments

DGates wrote on 4/15/2007, 4:46 PM
I'm not sure that comparing a $500 product (Vegas) to a $1300 product (FCS2) is fair.

What Sony does with their products is up to them. Vegas was just a very small acquisition that they acquired with the spare change under the sofa. It's not something like the Walkman or Playstation, in which they nurtured it from infancy.

Final Cut generates big revenue for Apple. But Vegas hasn't and will not generate big revenue for Sony no matter what they do. Sure, they could market the hell out of it, but that would only bump up the sales a small percentage.

Sony is smart enough to know where to concentrate their efforts. Vegas hasn't been a priority in the past, and they're obviously not looking for it to be a FCP or Premiere killer.



p@mast3rs wrote on 4/15/2007, 4:55 PM
Your last two paragraphs explain exactly what is wrong with Vegas. It most certainly is fair to compare both products considering many people make a living with both products. How is it not fair? Showing features that other suites offer that Vegas does not?

If Vegas doesnt generate that much revenue, honestly, why even bother with further development? With all the suites becoming more available, they can become Vegas killers and probably will. How this doesnt have Vegas users seriously panicking is beyond me.
[r]Evolution wrote on 4/15/2007, 4:58 PM
I think the topic along with the 1st response says it all...
Q - "Apple delivers... how about Sony?"
A- I'm not sure that comparing a $500 product (Vegas) to a $1300 product (FCS2) is fair.
_______________
That's just it... Sony does not have a Suite that can compare to Apple or Adobe.

I would choose Vegas over any NLE out... but I would choose the Adobe or Apple suite over Sony's suite any day. To truly be competitive the Apps in your suite have to communicate... such as Adobe & Apple. Sony apps do NOT communicate.
deusx wrote on 4/15/2007, 5:36 PM
>>>>>That's just it... Sony does not have a Suite that can compare to Apple or Adobe<<<<<

In a way they do, it's called Vegas.

Those other 2 can't do even close to what Vegas can do without those additional apps.

I can use vegas to edit video, record mix and finalize live music with as many tracks as I like, and if I didn't use Fusion, I could do a decent amount of compositing in it. Especially the audio part, IMPOSSIBLE to do with FCP or PPro.

What Apple delivered there is a lot of text and hype. It remains to be seen if it really makes any difference.

All Vegas really needs is 10 bits, and maybe a better titler to calm down users asking for it :-)
cmallam wrote on 4/15/2007, 5:44 PM
>the Apps in your suite have to communicate... such as Adobe & Apple

one of Vegas' greatest strengths is that an excellent audio app (it started as an audio app) an excellent compositor (a little counter-intuitive to use ...) and a compressor (mpg, AC3) are built in!

Still ... i did go to the apple site and price a dual quad core mac with FC Studio2.
DGates wrote on 4/15/2007, 6:02 PM
P@,

So if Vegas did everything you wanted, and added a nice price hike that brought it into the neighborhood of FCS2, would you be content?
p@mast3rs wrote on 4/15/2007, 6:05 PM
"Those other 2 can't do even close to what Vegas can do without those additional apps."

But can Vegas function and communicate without having to render to AE? How native support of PSD layers? Hell, Sony doesnt even offer multicamming out of the box. What about a better HDV capture app since most I know use HDVSplit.

Theres so much more that Sony could be doing. Seriously, if this was still Sonic Foundry's baby, Vegas would still be innovative and ahead of the game.
deusx wrote on 4/15/2007, 6:12 PM
Sure there is more they could do, and I hope nobody thinks I'm implying that Vegas as a compositor could match AE.

But we seem to be comparing a full $2500 suite consisting of many different apps to Vegas alone. Sort of proves how good Vegas is despite all of its negatives ( not many for my needs though ).

Anyway, wasn't Vegas the latest to come out with the new version last year, so it may be too early for Vegas 8. I wouldn't be surprised if nothing is announced regarding that.

I'm more interested in a $3000 HDV cam with low light performance of PD150. That's what we could use.
Harold Brown wrote on 4/15/2007, 6:19 PM
I think Vegas is way ahead of the competition. I looked at many packages for a long time and Vegas was the best investment for my dollars and it still is. Sure I would like a better titler but I have Heroglyph and BluffTitler so I get by ok. Vegas has been dual processor ready since 6 so they seem to be doing a lot of good things. You can compare feature by feature all day long but that doesn't define how the actual product is usable. I like the work flow and bottom line Vegas has made me some money and helped me make my friends successful.
blink3times wrote on 4/15/2007, 7:40 PM
"Theres so much more that Sony could be doing. Seriously, if this was still Sonic Foundry's baby, Vegas would still be innovative and ahead of the game."


Funny... I just posted Mike Jones' words in another thread... here it is in case you missed it:


http://blogs.digitalmediaonlineinc.com/digitalbasin/entry/20070411
p@mast3rs wrote on 4/15/2007, 8:14 PM
We discussed that article last week. i also said that hands down, I prefer Vegas if its only about the NLE. But for serious compositing and integration, Vegas offers none of that.
TGS wrote on 4/15/2007, 9:02 PM
I remember a lot of Horn tooting about the I-phone too. Apple & Adobe appeals to nerds like Star Wars does. Everybody raves before trying it.
rextilleon wrote on 4/15/2007, 9:41 PM
Check out the new FCP---it actually supports the Red----and I have seen the Red and it is the future.
DGates wrote on 4/15/2007, 10:28 PM
"We discussed that article last week. i also said that hands down, I prefer Vegas if its only about the NLE. But for serious compositing and integration, Vegas offers none of that."

And at it's current price point, it shouldn't.



Steve Mann wrote on 4/17/2007, 9:14 PM
"If there is no V8, Sony better have a whopping announcement or it could very well see its competitors distance themselves in the NLE race."

What makes you think that Sony wants to compete with FCP and Premiere?
Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/18/2007, 6:28 AM
Why DEMO a 64bit version at NAB? No one else currently is doing that. That would seem to indicate they want to compete - in fact it almost sounds like the gloves are coming off...
ken c wrote on 4/18/2007, 7:58 AM
but hey Vegas can now output to PSP! weee.

Although I'm in love with Vegas, I'm thinking I'm now riding an also-ran horse instead of a winner...

I'll probably have to migrate to FCP or Avid or PP sometime soon, to stay competitive. Vegas is getting "cute, usable, but not as powerful" as everything else out there in pro NLE-land.

and right re compositing and (especially!) workflow integration, is important from a time-to-market/production standpoint.

ken
Coursedesign wrote on 4/18/2007, 10:18 AM
If your needs are really diverse, it's good to have different vehicles for different kinds of transportation.

If OTOH you can do it all with one vehicle, that's worth a lot too.

Likewise with NLEs, I would think 80-90% of the people in this forum can do what they need to do with Vegas and a bit of Combustion/After Effects/Photoshop/etc. tools.

Learning a second NLE is a major investment in time, not to be taken lightly.

For me it was a no-brainer to use Vegas + FCP, but my needs don't match everyone else's, and they certainly have nothing to do with using "the #1 NLE" or some such thing (which I couldn't care less about).
Coursedesign wrote on 4/18/2007, 10:45 AM
And when I start working in HD (I'm currently 100% SD, but at a high quality), it looks like I'll benefit from Apple's new 10-bit ProRes codec introduced this week.

This tech review explains it a bit deeper: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/04/18/a_closer_look_at_apples_new_prores_422_video_format.html

A MacBook Pro [notebook] can play editing-grade video in full HD resolution.

vitalforce wrote on 4/18/2007, 11:14 AM
Not many years ago FCP and Premiere, even Avid ExpressDV, were hustling to catch up with aspects of Vegas' open workflow design and features, that's why a comparison is a natural reaction to upgrades in those NLEs.

My problem, having put together a feature project, is how to get Vegas to play with the people I have to share the project with, such as sound design, etc. Now that I have moved to Burbank where there is a high concentration of indie directors and filmmakers, I feel the pressure more directly. In the long run, if I can't output an industry standard project file from Vegas that will open properly in Pro Tools or Avid, or in FCP, then I can't stay with Vegas.
.
Patryk Rebisz wrote on 4/18/2007, 11:23 AM
You are right vitalforce. I just saw how simlessly FCP integrates with Final Touch. You output a sequence and it shows all the cuts in Final Touch so the colorist can concentrate on the coloring and not on finding the cuts so he can applay effects to particular clip. Each time I spend about 2-3 hours per music video just trying to find those cuts when i get a final cut from the editor... Very frustrating.
Coursedesign wrote on 4/18/2007, 11:28 AM
Same thing here, it's an FCP world out there. After spending three weeks tinkering with workarounds, I decided "never again" and added FCP to my arsenal.

Note I didn't say "substituted," because I still prefer Vegas for many things.
kkolbo wrote on 4/18/2007, 1:39 PM
I am glad to hear that advances are being made with other post production products. I am getting a little tired of the "XXX is whopping your Vegas" posts by p@mast3rs. Even though you are a Vegas user and even supporter, I can't figure why you are spending so much time on these. It isn't going to change the direction that development is heading on Vegas. You could just simply post, I am excited about what I see from XXX without a trashing tone.

Vegas is a well laid out tool for a market segment. For event and industrial video, even field news, (the DV world) when you combine it with the other Sony tools, you have a nicely targeted tool. For this kind of production, we have been doing color grading and sound production (even basic compositing) with wildly mixed media for a long time. I am glad FCP and PP are finally providing it to their market. I doubt Vegas is targeted to get KCLA's business. Vegas wants my business.

There is no such animal as a make or break NAB season. Today Adobe and Apple are making noise. Later Avid will make noise. Vegas will make noise when it wants to and we will all listen. Vegas development clearly is still happening. The move to 64 bit is a big deal. I like Vegas because of the solid infrastructure under it and not the layered on stuff. A 64 bit rewrite or adaptation will create a platform for solid future development.

Madison may not choose to go the direction that you want. Then you should choose the tool that you want and be happy. Vegas 7 made huge improvements in my productivity and workflow. I love the Vegas 7 upgrade. The choices of development fit my needs. If they didn't, I would use another tool. I might also (peek into the reality) have more than one tool for more than one type of projects.

I know I sound like a grouch, and today I am in a lot of pain so maybe I am, but be happy about the advancements that applications make. Tell us about great things, but don't cry the doom of Vegas when it just is not so. Vegas has a market. It is not going away because of the glitter of FCP or PP. Vegas has plenty of development legs under it for the market it servers.

</grouch>

KK
ken c wrote on 4/18/2007, 2:07 PM
true that vegas has a place .. and we will probably all still use it and like it ... as one of many tools in our toolkit..

but for bread-and-butter, professional production work, even simple things like not having a decent titler, (much less, the lack of integration between 'net design tools like DW etc), makes it probably not the smartest choice for a primary toolset.

we've seen the direction that sony's chosen to take with vegas, (eg it's insignificant re feature enhancements), so it's a case of "the emperor has no clothes", and I don't think sony will rise to the occasion and create a PP/Avid/FC killer with vegas.

of course I could be wrong. but actions speak louder than words, and the anemic feature barely add-ons from V4 to V7 tell me V8 isn't gonna be no Avid/PP killer app.
but it'll still be a cute little nle wannabe, kind of like an ex girlfriend you still like, though you're with someone better now, kind of thing..

so it's time to shop around, at least try the new demos of other NLEs to see what they come up with, this summer/fall.. and heck maybe V8 will actually have tons of new professional features in it. (/then we all woke up)..

ken