pmasters wrote:

Perhaps if he would have acted with the same vigor he did when deciding to invade Iraq or to save Terri Schivao's life, those that have died already in NO could have been saved too.

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That has got to be the stupidest f**king comment so far. I have kept my mouth shut long enough. I have sent Sony private messages about Bush bashing and other people bashing on this site. Time for me. Look, I care about those people who are suffering or are dead. But, they chose to live in an evironment that is prone to disaster. Then, they want ME to bail them out. I'm sick of bailing out florida EVERY year and now NO. Give me a break. It is NOT Bush's fault on what is happening or what has happened. If Clinton was in charge you all would be like "OH, he can't help it, it's the red tape, or some other excuse". Get over the fact that Bush was elected. No matter how you feel about the "WAR" or other things he has done. Their are alot of us that AGREE 100 PERCENT on what he is doing. Feel glad I am not in charge. I would have turned that entire part of the earth into one big glass plate. Also, you CAN NOT get aid to everyone in one day. Techology only goes so far. FEMA should bear most of this. They are given money for things like this. Then, they take alot of it and build high dollar buildings, and other crap that looks good but serves no real purpose for this kind of thing. You can't blame Bush for government organizations blowing their wads too quickly. Local planning gets the rest of the blame. They knew it was coming. They should have forced people out. Now, they are blaming everyone else. Look, Bush is a great scapegoat. But, anyone who has a brain knows better.

Let the Bush and me bashing commence.

:::Until we start figuring out how to help the public to get more depth in their news, the situation will only get worse.:::

See my previous posts in this thread.

What doesn't get mentioned in the news (but should) could supply material for half again as many television / radio stations and print publications. Relying on soundbites instead of in-depth examinations of current events is guaranteed to accelerate the dumbing-down of society.

But then again, I often think the media is only responding to what their viewers/listeners/readers prefer---and that's to be entertained rather than informed.

Jimco,

When I was talking about wanting security from a government I was not talking about different government philosophies in a functioning state, I was taking a historical view of anarchy vs a functioning state.

Liberty and freedom as governmental principles arose several hundred years after nation-states arose. That is not protection vs an individual criminals, but protection against bands of armed marauders what is today called warlordism.

Socialist has nothing to do with it. I mentioned that private citizens and corporations will be generous in the long run, but again my point is in the immediate, crucial aftermath of a disaster government is the only force that can truly address a major disaster.

In terms of the Daily News and local vs federal, as of March 1st current governmental policy is this:

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

"But, they chose to live in an evironment that is prone to disaster. Then, they want ME to bail them out. I'm sick of bailing out florida EVERY year and now NO. Give me a break. It is NOT Bush's fault on what is happening or what has happened. If Clinton was in charge you all would be like "OH, he can't help it, it's the red tape, or some other excuse".

Man, you need some prozac there my friend. Everywhere is prone to disaster. You cant beat mother nature and everything she can throw at you. So I guess if California gets hit by the big quake tomorrow, tough titties for them because the experts have been calling for it for years so they must have known it was coming? How bout those on the plains that are subject to Tornados? Screw them too then huh? How about NYC and the 9/11 disaster? Your poor attitude is what is wrong with this country.

May God have mercy on your neck of the woods that it may never be struck with disaster. Because I am sure if it does, there will be some callous individual who will whine about bailing you and your area out.

Word of advice. "That has got to be the stupidest f**king comment so far." When you have to resort to foul language, your point becomes harder to find value in regardless of how correct/incorrect you may be. I speak from experience.

With regards to him being elected, while true, doesnt seem to have a very favorable approval rating for some time now. If the Dems would have put up a candidate with better character and platform, no way the redneck we have now would be running the country. While I am no fan of Clinton either, at least he cared about the people he lead.

If Clinton was in charge you all would be like "OH, he can't help it, it's the red tape, or some other excuse".

Actually, when Clinton was in charge, James Lee Witt was the head of FEMA. He will be a household name fairly soon.

..............................no way the redneck we have now would be running the country

Oh now I can take some trash talk, but that crosses the line!!!!!
Clinton would be very upset to think he wasnt the bigger redneck, I think he would argue with you on that one.

Buster, I agree people should be bitching and screaming. You know how I feel about the most shameful, abusive, non-valuable money pit known as "Homeland Stupidity." The only other time in the history of our country has anything like Homeland Security existed was the brownshirts in Nazi Germany. Foxes guarding the henhouse not responsible for the chickens they eat, starve, manipulate, abuse, or lose during their post as guardians of the flock.

However, my point was more to being in *this* particular community. No one from the media is going to read this, no one of any political merit is going to read this. Therefore the thread is only just so much gnashing of teeth and flailing of arms. It doesn't inspire anyone, IMO.
To the point of people that are enduring all of this reading the thread and feeling support, I disagree. All it would/will do is add to the frustration of what they're already feeling, and further enrage them. I would submit they'd rather be reading what folks have done/tried to do to help, and be grateful for it by saying "thank you" rather than reading all the political rhetoric and saying "damn right!"

It just seems that in this particular location, the focus is on the negative rather than the positive, and were this somewhere that anyone of import spend time, it might be worth it. Otherwise, I find posts like Dave/Filmy's to be of the greatest value.

Beerandchips wrote:

>>>Get over the fact that Bush was elected. No matter how you feel about the "WAR" or other things he has done. Their are alot of us that AGREE 100 PERCENT on what he is doing. Feel glad I am not in charge. I would have turned that entire part of the earth into one big glass plate.<<<

Right. Turning that part of the world into a big glass plate (I assume you mean nuking Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran) would help the nation so effectively by destroying a substantial portion of the world's oil reserves and really show how great a nation we are.

I am indeed glad you are not in charge.

So I guess if California gets hit by the big quake tomorrow, tough titties for them because the experts have been calling for it for years so they must have known it was coming? How bout those on the plains that are subject to Tornados? Screw them too then huh?

========================================

YES. I live in a tornado alley. It is MY responsibility for myself and my insurance. Not yours.



How about NYC and the 9/11 disaster?

======

Totally different situation.

Ok so I just got off the phone and got some updated info for those who care. First off the Red Cross is not being let into the area, this is confirmed on the Red Cross website as well, although it only mentions New Orleans. Anyway - in Chalmette 40,000 homes are gone, the number of dead is still being tallied. The sheriff is going house to house to check for survivors and marking the houses that are empty and that bodies are being found in.

Right now as I type this the best way to get money directly to those in St Bernards parish is the following:

Senate District 1 Disaster Relief Fund
Attn: Senator Walter J. Boasso
P.O. Box 94183
Baton Rouge, LA 70804

(225) 342-2415 (Emergancy SBP district office number)

They also are setting up a drop off center for things like food, water and the like however because of the situation you need to transport if there yourself, which most of us here don't have access to semi's or boats. Remember parts of the 10 freeway are gone and parts are underwater. It isn't that easy to simply drive into the area.

EDIT - Spelling and added the phone number in case anyone might think I am posting some sort of scam info they can call directly to verify.

I wrote a long post in response, but then my browser crashed.

There is a Firefox plugin that automatically saves what you enter for recovery if the server fails, just look at the plugin list at mozilla.org.

If you don't use FF, you can always do a ctrl-A, ctrl-C to save the text to the clipboard before hitting "Post Message", or even regularly if you are worried about the browser itself crashing.

I have seen some signs of recognition inside the Federal government that the Department of Homeland Security is a disaster, because it has attracted the worst people. It is likely that some sort of change will come, in addition to some fairly recently chopped responsibilities.

Beer, and if you were impoverished like many were in NO or elderly or made use of public transportation for getting to work etc..., is that still their fault? Lets think about this for a minute. The gov't can give billions in bailing out the airline industry and do it quickly where there was no loss of life, only jobs and big wigs bonuses but they cant jump the gun and help people out when as you have said that these people knew the storm was coming, so did the gov't. Should it be the tax payers responsiblity to bail out th airline industry? Nope but the gov't did it anyway.

Think gas prices are a fluke? Yet every tax payer is going to bail out the oil industries and refiners by paying higher prices. Sorry but I think helping people get their lives back together is more important than bailing big businesses.

VOGuy,

Excellent post. Well said.

The government cannot protect you, neither from a criminal intent on causing you harm or a category 4/5 hurricane bearing down on you. You want protection from the criminal, arm yourself. You want protection from the hurricane, evacuate. NO knew this thing was coming days in advance.

Jim,

I agree that the hurricane arrival was known. Probably many people were worried about getting their homes or businesses looted if they left...

Word this week though was that the levees etc. were designed to handle a Category 3 Hurricane, with no margin for a Cat 4. Presumably they could have been reinforced to handle a Cat 4 if desired.

Your suggestion that the public should arm themselves for protection assumes that they are competent to handle firearms. I have found that this is generally not the case in cities.

The worst is when old people put a big handgun in their bathrobe pocket before answering the door late at night, and then the visiting robber simply takes the gun out of their hands and shoots them. Those people would have been better off without a gun.

Secondly, city people who have at best shot a handgun a few times (or only seen them on TV), are not in a good situation to stop an intruder effectively. People think that a shot from a handgun will always hit its target and will always stop somebody, just like in the movies. Sorry, wrong on both counts.

Most people couldn't even hit a barn door from 10 yards, if they are nervous. And they sure don't know how to stop an armed attacker fast enough to prevent them from shooting back. It takes both knowledge and recurring training to be able to kill or disable somebody within a second or two, and few people even know the mechanisms to do so.

Handguns are not suitable for personal protection in typical homes. The bullets go through walls and may kill a member of your own family in an adjacent room.

Handguns are by nature small, and often don't command enough respect, especially in the dark. Heck, most people don't even know how to hold a handgun properly to be effective. If you do need to know, learn from Col. Jeff Cooper's superb tactics training, he taught many police officers how to survive in tough city environments.

Far better for home defense is a pump shotgun. Energy is transferred more effectively into the "recipient's" body, it's far more likely to stop perps fast before they can hurt you back, most often by very quickly reducing their blood pressure to make them unable to act further, and the best of all, almost everybody recognizes the sound of a pump shotgun being cycled for action. This sound alone will stop nearly anybody, and then you won't have to spend the next several hours filling out forms...

In the end, it is vital to arm yourself if you live far away from cities and sheriffs, but then you need to get yourself good training, and keep your skills up (and learn how to properly care for guns so they don't jam when you need them the most). Also know that some slightly less expensive national brands of revolvers may fail when you need them the most, etc., etc.

In the city, for most people it will be better to spend money on real locks and real windows (both rare today) and good communications than on guns.

Of course if you own a jewelry store or other high value store that's attractive to armed robbers, having your own protection can save you big on insurance premiums. We have a jewelry store down the street that has saved taxpayers 4 Long Term Food & Accommodation expenses in about as many years, but that owner went to a local range for frequent recurring training and nobody was able to outdraw him.

>Sorry to hear about your cousins.

Just got off the phone. The 75 yr old in hospital, but both safe and accounted for.

>This forum has an EDIT feature you can use on your own posts to clean up typos or belatedly obey your instincts.

That would be cheating :-)

Beerandchips

Feel glad I am not in charge. I would have turned that entire part of the earth into one big glass plate

You are some very sick dude. how pathetic.

You are some very sick dude. how pathetic.

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Think what you want. I'll think my way. Just because I don't have your liberal views on things doesn't make me sick. It just makes my philosopy on things different. Am I extreme on some issues? Yes, But I am more liberal on others than you would think. My main point is, not everything that happens is Bush's fault. I know you bitter liberals just can't stand the fact that he is in office. However, there are many other people that are really to blame here. Plus, the levy system was put in place long before Bush was in office. I'm just sorry that I am not the great, perfect and morally upstanding person that you are Liam. Because, your views are always correct.

next.

"Yes, But I am more liberal on others than you would think. My main point is, not everything that happens is Bush's fault. I know you bitter liberals just can't stand the fact that he is in office."

Yep, having no regards for the loss of life regardless of where it is in the world is liberal thinking. Bitter liberals? Not hardly, just someone who REFUSES to drink the Kool Aid of the Pubbies, the Dems, and the idiot we have in office.

Many ARE to blame. Sorry but I give the President and Congress the majority here for the budget cuts and the slow reaction to the crisis. For crying out loud, they can have a midnight session to try and save a DEAD woman. They could not react any faster? God forbid terrorists attack us somewhere in our own cities, who knows how long it would take for the gov't to get inlvolved.

Quality of life has declined serverely in the US and not being able to count on my country to help me in a time of crisis and disaster will not be forgotten when it comes time and the country asks me to do my part and help defend it.

How many people have to die whether it be wars, distasters, or terrorists before our political leaders (all not just Bush) are satisfied? As someone who has endured many of natures catastrophies and more recently an accident by a drunk driver that nearly killed and crippled me, I have more of a fondness of ALL life not just my own.

Sorry but Im passionate about how I feel, just as you are about how you feel.

From New York Times:

The [1927 Lower Mississippi] flood also left a legacy directly relevant to today. It led to the passage of the 1928 Flood Control Act, which [...] gave the federal government full responsibility for flood control along the lower Mississippi and many tributaries.

All we can hope for is to learn from experience, let's not knock that.

pmasters said..
"Quality of life has declined serverely in the US and not being able to count on my country to help me in a time of crisis and disaster will not be forgotten when it comes time and the country asks me to do my part and help defend it. "

True american spirit there Mr.,Masters ,Geeze
by the way your political crying and just plain poor me cryin was old last year and getting older . Instead of talkin about it go help someone, then keep it to yourself, it may feel good.

" ... having no regards for the loss of life regardless of where it is in the world is liberal thinking.

I don't think a single person in this thread has shown any disregard for the loss of life or immense suffering that is taking place. To suggest otherwise is shameful.

"For crying out loud, they can have a midnight session to try and save a DEAD woman. They could not react any faster?"

As has been reported many times -- and was confirmed by a survivor of Andrew here in this thread -- the response to Andrew was slower than the response to this storm, and this storm is far, far, larger in the geographic area covered and in the nature of the problems getting aid to the victims (flooding makes it impossible to move supplies via truck, train, or even boat: not enough depth for big boats). Thus, perhaps we should be praising the government for reacting more quickly to a disaster of far greater scope. Not likely anyone will do this, given the images we've all seen, but my point is that the response -- when measured against past response times to lesser disasters -- has not been abnormal.

The storm was over for New Orleans and Mississippi by Monday evening, but its remnants moved north that night, making travel from that area almost impossible. Thus, Tuesday morning was the first relief efforts were physically able to move towards the affected area and even then slowly since the relief convoys themselves had to move from areas that had suffered at least some minor problems.

Then, as already mentioned, there is the scope of this thing. The entire width of Mississippi, extending two miles inland, was devastated. Other portions of Louisiana, outside of New Orleans, were also hard hit. Unlike a tornado or even an earthquake, the number of square miles involved in this is mind boggling. To those that say that we had days to prepare because of the advanced warning, I ask you, where would you have staged all this relief effort? The storm still could have veered towards Texas or the Florida panhandle. In addition, if you positioned the relief convoys too close, they could become victims of the storm as well.

Despite this, massive supplies and relief arrived on Friday. In the three days prior to that, not much was able to get in other than what could be done by helicopter.

This is three days time. An eternity for those on the ground, to be sure, especially those hurt or huddled in their attic. But, given that the storm didn't allow movement at all until Tuesday, how do you get aid to this many people, over this large an area, in a shorter time? Come on, all those with 20/20 hindsight, what is your plan? Where and when has it been done faster, on this scale?

People love to criticize. It has become an obnoxious sport, of sorts. But not one critic (and I've listened to dozens on TV and elsewhere over the last week) -- not one has offered any viable ideas as to what could be done better.

There is a certain smug arrogance that permeates these criticisms that belies the total lack of experience or understanding that underlies the thought. What's more, probably every one of you reading this thread can understand, first hand, what it is like to be on the receiving end of such criticism. In particular, no one in this forum would ever question why it takes days and days of work to assemble video from three cameras, add effects and titles, and turn it into a DVD. Yet, I am sure most of you have been questioned by clients as to why a project took so long.

Your response? "But you just don't understand ..."

Exactly.

Dateline 1776:

The King says he and his men are doing everything they can to keep the Crown's Subjects in the American Colonies satisfied. It is unmanly to complain about the King's governance, just get in line and everything will be fine.

Hmmmm.