"True american spirit there Mr.,Masters ,Geeze
by the way your political crying and just plain poor me cryin was old last year and getting older . Instead of talkin about it go help someone, then keep it to yourself, it may feel good."

Oh dont give me that American spirit crap. I did my part last year to help others out in the disasters WHILE I was enduring it myself. I helped out the tsumnai victims just the same. Up until my accident I was heavily involved in my community at the soup kitchens and visiting those that have no family in hospitals and rest homes. So dont for a second tell me that I talk and not do. Philanthropy was probably the one main thing I learned while I was in a fraternity.

Sadly, you have forgotten your history. America has always been a theif that has taken at will all the way back to Native Americans. Politicians keep that spirit alive and well each and every day. Nice to know who the people were that voted for them. Thanks Win.

"I don't think a single person in this thread has shown any disregard for the loss of life or immense suffering that is taking place. To suggest otherwise is shameful."

John, look back up a bit. If he were in charge, Iraq would be a glass plate. Now, in order to do that you would either have to evacuate their people or kill them. Is that not disregard for life?

" To those that say that we had days to prepare because of the advanced warning, I ask you, where would you have staged all this relief effort?"

My point exactly. Those that say we had days warning cant have it both ways. So how could it be far enough warning to get people out of there but not enough warning to begin staging relief?

Mr Masters says ....I did my part last year to help others out in the disasters WHILE I was enduring it myself. I helped out the tsumnai victims just the same. Up until my accident I was heavily involved in my community at the soup kitchens and visiting those that have no family in hospitals and rest homes. So dont for a second tell me that I talk and not do. Philanthropy was probably the one main thing I learned while I was in a fraternity.

Like I said talk a little less about what a great humanitarian you are, and someone may believe it. I've heard you bullsh@# for way to long to believe any of it.
Have a nice day, this solving of all the problems has worn me out, think I'll edit.

"The reason the Federal government to involved with the Flood Control Act was interstate commerce. This aspect seems still valid, note the impact on importing oil and much more."

Its not just gas consumption by consumers that it effects. It also effects grocery stores because trucks have to have fuel to deliver the product, delivery dervices, airlines, public transportation, etc....Then add heating/air conditioning and electricity. Then add product that is developed and shipped out of New Orleans beside gas and it puts a hurt on the entire economy.

A lot could have been done in advance on both sides (gov't and residents) to be better prepared. The only thing they could not do was prevent the Cane from striking their city.

What I am curious about is how many people that blame the residents for not leaving ever been in a hurricane or a natural disaster? Not what you think it might feel like but actually weathered a major storm? Your view very well may different if you had to go through it. Look at the people in the Panhandle. They literally pee their pants when someone even mentions a Gulf hurricane and rightfully so.

"Like I said talk a little less about what a great humanitarian you are, and someone may believe it. I've heard you bullsh@# for way to long to believe any of it.
Have a nice day, this solving of all the problems has worn me out, think I'll edit."

Im not looking for accolades. Trust me, many have done much more than I could ever dream of doing to help people out. But man, how do you think people get encouraged to participate in things like this? Some people have no idea how to help or how they can help their own communities. Face it, some people do not like to take ownership for the enviornment around them. At one point in my life, I was there. But I made a choice to make a difference or accept crap the way that it is. If that bothers you that I share the good things I do to help out, then deal with it. Perhaps when you hear it you look at yourself and realize you could be doing more to make a difference out there.

I guarrantee you'd be singing a different tune if you were trapped in the violence and chaos that is there right now. But see, you have the luxury on sitting on your ass crapping on people who do try and make a difference.

Beerandchips

Just because I don't have your liberal views on things doesn't make me sick.

Not seeing the world in black-and-white does not label me as anything other than a humane-thinking person. I doubt there are many people who would call themselves republican who would condone your views either matey.

Video has been in color for many years. I wish that you could start seeing the world in color instead of your filtered black-and-white.

Your comment had nothing to do with the situation with Katrina - or Bush - or anything else. I can only hope your were actually full of beer and chips when you made your stupid pathetic insane comments.

Spot, I hear ya about *this* community.


Personally, I told myself everytime I do a partisan post, I'll give another $10 to the Red Cross.

A lot could have been done in advance on both sides (gov't and residents) to be better prepared.

Yeah? What? Come on, give us some specifics.

Glad to hear they are safe.

My point exactly. Those that say we had days warning cant have it both ways. So how could it be far enough warning to get people out of there but not enough warning to begin staging relief?

No, it wasn't your point at all. You can't begin staging until the unknown is, in fact, known. That point does not come until after the hurricane (unless you are psychic, like "Miss Cleo").

I just heard a report on the radio from a reporter in Jackson Mississippi. Many parts of that city, which is over 100 miles inland, are without electricity, and many areas suffered significant damage (obviously nothing like what is on the coast). Would you have staged troops and supplies there? Bad choice, it would now appear. If not, where would you have put them? Where do the supplies come from? Which supplies do you order? From where? How much do you pay? Do you just go to the local Home Depot and start buying stuff?

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you have any real suggestions or ideas?

Ignorance begets arrogance.

"Ignorance begets arrogance" Perhaps the pot calling the kettle black.

Funny you say you cant begin staging because its done all the time. Now granted, its not as if they had to stage in NO which would have been foolish. We no longer live a time that allows us to wait and then react to events.

They could have staged NW of NO and east of MS without putting themselves in harms way. So tell me this, when they were informed that NO was directly in the line of fire, what else did the local gov't do besides talk on TV and warning people by going home to home? The supplies come from the same place they come from "after you stage". So explain to me why it took so long to get the guard in there?

Do you have any idea what you talking about? Have you ever been through anything that Florida, Mississippi, and Louisiana has gone through? Do you have any inclination the amount of trauma and terror they had to endure? No matter how bad it looks on the news, to those suffering through it all, its ten times worse.

The saddest thing for me in this entire thread is that there are some very cruel people that still remain in this world. May God help you.

Do you have any idea what you talking about? Have you ever been through anything that Florida, Mississippi, and Louisiana has gone through?

Yes, I have a very good idea what I am talking about because I have actually run three different companies. I know the difference between actually having to make decisions and take actions, and simply sit around and complain.

No, I have never been through anything like what these people are going through. Few people (thankfully) have. However, I did go through the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake (the one that disrupted the '89 World Series). I was much closer than where the Bay Bridge collapsed. We were without power for many days and had to make do. However, the comparison of my experience and what these people are going through ends there. I was not displaced from my home or forced to endure days out in the open with poor communication, etc.

"Do you have any inclination the amount of trauma and terror they had to endure?"

No I don't, and neither do you.

"The saddest thing for me in this entire thread is that there are some very cruel people that still remain in this world. May God help you."

Opinionated? Yes. Cruel? No. If you can't tell the difference, or if you can't stand the criticism, then quit posting.

One thing that has changed in the country -- for the better, in my opinion -- is that people no longer let silly ideas, half-baked truths, or misleading statements stand. There used to be a politeness that kept people from openly challenging these things. That politeness is gone. While I am sorry to see this retreat from civility, it does have the advantage of keeping bad ideas, untruths, and propaganda from having the influence it once had.

Video has been in color for many years. I wish that you could start seeing the world in color instead of your filtered black-and-white.


Liam,

In color meaning of course, the way you think, right?

Have a good one BeerandChips... Cheers.

Just some updates and a heads up that may be of some interest. For the heck of it I want to say something about the whole race thing - I was watching MSNBC and they were playing up the whole issue and had on guests that were talking about the response being so slow because of race. This has just blown up so much over the last 3 days it is getting really off topic - sort of like this thread huh? The backlash starting to come out of St Bernard Parish is that probably more than 80% of the residents are white and they went without outside help, and no national media attention, until late yesterday and today. To me this issue has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the simple fact no one was prepared for something this huge happening. Yes, response has been too slow - but not because of race. As helpful as much of the media has been in directing rescuer's to those in need and trying to help where they can, the fact that they have focused so much on one area that happened to be mostly poor and mostly afro-american has somewhat blown up an uneeded side of it all - race. I hope that the issues that are really looked into in the future are why the overall resuce operations have been slow and not "why were so many black people left to die?"

========
September 4, 2005
9:30 PM CST

Parish President Junior Rodriguez scheduled to appear by telephone on "Larry King Live" on CNN Tomorrow (9/5/05) between 8 and 9 PM CST.

FEMA on the way. FEMA confirmed today that they will finally meet with Parish officials tomorrow around noon regarding aid for the cleaning and rebuilding of St. Bernard Parish. The contingent will include representatives of the EPA and the Corps of Engineers.

Several hundred National Guard soldiers are scheduled to arrive in St. Bernard tomorrow to relieve the hard working St. Bernard Parish deputies and Parish Government officials and employees that have been working tirelessly to rescue as many stranded St. Bernard residents as possible.

Murphy Oil is working to contain and clean-up the crude oil spill. The spill is in the Judge Perez Drive area and extends west to around Palmisano Boulevard. They will send an update on the progress tomorrow.

Just wanted to say a few things about this event. Firstly, I sympathize for all involved and hope that aid reaches them as fast as it can. Secondly, as a Canadian, I want to aplogize to anyone who watched Larry King last night and saw Celine Dion acting like a complete and utter idiot. This is a person with a personal wealth of probably hundreds of millions of $ and she has the nerve to come on TV and act like that. I hope we have revoked her Canadian citizenship and the U.S does the same.

One thing these disasters do point out is that as a race, human beings do not seem to respond to changes until we reach crisis mode and we have a hard time thinking for ourselves.

For instance:

1. Building (and rebuilding) in this location is a mistake. In fact there are dozens of such locations around the world that we just seem to be intent on living despite the danger.
2. Letting the market make your economic choices for you is a foolhardy faith. Look at oil now. We are so tied to this diminishing resource that the world is in total shock mode when anything happens. The economists will tell you that when the prices get so high, then alternatives will enter the market. They never told you those might take decades to reach the consumer and in the meantime you will pay through the teeth. Sometimes you just need to look beyond the next 5 minutes and we humans are terrible at that.
3. And although I support having a solid military and my country certainly needs a lot of work in that area, anyone that can still support a $4 billion dollar a month war effort overseas while there are americans without shoes needs to check their head. Politicians are selling freedom , security and tax cuts at the expense of their own people. Stop buying it.

Haven't seen Celine, but otherwise, well said.

>my point is that the response -- when measured against past response times to lesser disasters -- has not been abnormal.

Agreed.

[Difficulties involved appreciated and deleted for space]

>Where and when has it been done faster, on this scale?

Nowhere.

>not one has offered any viable ideas as to what could be done better.

Let's back up. Does everyone know that the one area of military effort in Irag that received a total failure rating was "logistics"? The computer system we had in place (which cost hundreds of millions of dollars) was abandoned within days and people reverted to voice communicaton instead? Convoys had to stop because they ran out of gas. Lives were lost because we couldn't accomplish the "simple" act of getting resource A to point B when it was needed?

Why? Many reasons, but fatally because you can't expect $40/hr programmers to do the job and succeed. So everything fell apart the first time it was used in action. The military is the best we have for emergency command and control, yet even that is not good enough when we can't accomplish the basic "blocking and tackling" to execute the plan.

I happen to be involved with some people who work with the military on this problem, one of whom is the world expert on computer-aided logistics. The fact is that we do have "viable ideas as to what can be done better". Only too well. Sadly, the answer is "almost everything". And this is not to gloat or point fingers, its an unavoidable observation.

If the US military is floundering, just what can we expect of the personnel in Missippippi and Louisiana? Not much.

For Katrina, the word I'm getting is that there was no command and control. And what we did have was too many cooks none of whom had the ability to translate plans into action.

Simple stuff. Phones were down, but there are several technologies that can quickly provide standard wireless phone service: Temporary towers, overhead communications planes...even blimps flashing messages that can tell people where to go for evacuation.

Simple steps such as tellng people to evacuate to point X, informing the local police to go to point X to maintain order, informing the helicopters where to go to drop food and water, dropping in snipers to take out the fools who're firing guns at the helicopters as they try to land. All of this could have been done in hrs, not the 3 days it took before the Feds even knew that people were waiting at the convention center.

I know how hard things are in emergencies. All short-term decisions are wrong, all is snafu. By definition. Yet I also know what is possible. Because my software company has been working like dogs for the last 2 years building the basic foundations of the software tools that we can use to aid these efforts, whether they're humanitarian or military. I'm also realistic. Even given adequate software, it'll be the people using it that determine success or failure.

Anyone ever go to work for a big company and be utterly stunned at how incompetently the work is being done? Not the people, they're doing the best they can given the circumstances. But the difference between how things are done and how they obviously could be done better? Its been my curse (or blessing) that I've had nothing but that experience.

John, I agree wth practically everything you said. Yet I can simultaneously agree with you and state with a straight face that our response was "totally unacceptable" and that we have many "viable ideas for doing it better".

I'm hoping that in 5 yrs time it'll be a different story. It may not be, but I know that it can be. Technically we can do it. The hardware is coming into place and I believe we can provide the software (which'll be much harder). Politically the hard part will be weeding out the people who can't think about much more than knee-jerk resistance to action and change, and hanging on to their jobs at all costs.

Rich,

Very well said!

Convoys [in Iraq] had to stop because they ran out of gas.

...but Halliburton trucks were driving back and forth empty because they were paid by the mile and their logistics systems were apparently good enough to secure the fuel they needed.

Politically the hard part will be weeding out the people who can't think about much more than knee-jerk resistance to action and change, and hanging on to their jobs at all costs.

That is the real crux. All large organizations rot, it doesn't matter if they are government or commercial.

It's not even just the Peter Principle (where everybody is gradually promoted for good work, until they are no longer doing good work, then they stay in place; so eventually every large organization has only non-promotable people in every position...).

Los Angeles Times today says a major part of the problem with the Katrina response was that FEMA was taken over by the Department of Homeland Security, and refocused to 75% terrorism response, 25% natural disasters. Also:

Under the law, Chertoff [current Head of DHS] said, state and local officials must direct initial emergency operations. "The federal government comes in and supports those officials," he said.

Just to clarify something -- I think it's misleading to ask the question "When and where has a disaster of this scale occured?" This is to some degree a strawman -- I don't think people are arguing that the scale and degree of troubles are trivial, I think the overall anger is directed at the government for their initially lethargic response, and their evidently mixed up priorities of establishing military force before dropping food and water. The people of N.O. are citizens, should be treated as such (innocent before guilty), and not as presumed enemies of the State.

Today they've rounded up ten bodies at the Dome. We all -- any of us watching TV -- knew about the conditions at the Dome and the Convention Center TWO DAYS before supplies began trickling in. That's at least 48 hours (being charitable -- the timeline puts it actually closer to 4 days after Katrina had passed) where the world watched as thousands were convened on a single spot without food and water. I can DRIVE to N.O. from NYC in 1/6th that time -- why was it that helicopters couldn't have begun dropping water and MRE's to that area immediately?

The fact is their actions were incomprehensible and caused the unnecessary deaths of many people, no matter what story they want to string together now.

I pointed some of the long standing complaints about budget cuts to levee projects for the region. Cuts in funding for public works projects and things for the benefit of the common man are only obvious if one watches C-Span and hears it with their own ears. Although I am a Republican I can honestly say that the majority of objections to this sort of thing come from the Democrats who are labeled "obstructionists" for bringing it up. The problem is (as we discussed at great length a few months ago) that the media spins the news to favor the administration and the majority. When they report it you will never hear the exact objections that were made with respect to budgets or other legislation. All you will hear is the "obstructionist" rhetoric. And even if a minority of Republicans also raise objections, the media reports that the Democrats objected, but never details the actual objections.
The Bush administration doesn't fund anything unless it cuts elsewhere. It is the nature of the cuts that is obscured and will continue to be obscured.
The project most closely associated with preventing flooding in New Orleans was the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Hurricane Protection Project, which was “designed to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Missisippi River levee from surges in Lake Pontchartrain,” according to a fact sheet from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. (The fact sheet is dated May 23, long before Katrina). The multi-decade project involved building new levees, enlarging existing levees, and updating other protections like floodwalls. It was scheduled to be completed in 2015.

Over at least the past several budget cycles, the Corps has received substantially less money than it requested for the Lake Pontchartrain project, even though Congress restored much of the money the President cut from the amount the Corps requested.

In fiscal year 2004, the Corps requested $11 million for the project. The President’s budget allocated $3 million, and Congress furnished $5.5 million. Similarly, in fiscal 2005 the Corps requested $22.5 million, which the President cut to $3.9 million in his budget. Congress increased that to $5.5 million. “This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts,” according to a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ project fact sheet. The Corps reported that “seven new contracts are being delayed due to lack funds” [sic].

The President proposed $3 million for the project in the budget for fiscal 2006, which begins Oct. 1. “This will be insufficient to fund new construction projects,” the fact sheet stated. It says the Corps “could spend $20 million if funds were provided.” The Corps of Engineers goes on to say:

Army Corps of Engineers, May 23: In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, several levees have settled and need to be raised to provide the design protection. The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.

The Corps has seen cutbacks beyond those affecting just the Lake Pontchartrain project. The Corps oversees SELA, or the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control project, which Congress authorized after six people died from flooding in May 1995. The Times-Picayune newspaper of New Orleans reported that, overall, the Corps had spent $430 million on flood control and hurricane prevention, with local governments offering more than $50 million toward the project. Nonetheless, "at least $250 million in crucial projects remained," the newspaper said.

In the past five years, the amount of money spent on all Corps construction projects in the New Orleans district has declined by 44 percent, according to the New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper, from $147 million in 2001 to $82 million in the current fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

A long history of complaints

Local officials had long complained that funding for hurricane protection projects was inadequate:

October 13, 2001: The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported that “federal officials are postponing new projects of the Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Program, or SELA, fearing that federal budget constraints and the cost of the war on terrorism may create a financial pinch for the program.” The paper went on to report that “President Bush’s budget proposed $52 million” for SELA in the 2002 fiscal year. The House approved $57 million and the Senate approved $62 million. Still, “the $62 million would be well below the $80 million that corps officials estimate is needed to pay for the next 12 months of construction, as well as design expenses for future projects.”
April 24, 2004: The Times-Picayune reported that “less money is available to the Army Corps of Engineers to build levees and water projects in the Missisippi River valley this year and next year.” Meanwhile, an engineer who had direct the Louisiana Coastal Area Ecosystem Restoration Study – a study of how to restore coastal wetlands areas in order to provide a bugger from hurricane storm surges – was sent to Iraq "to oversee the restoration of the ‘Garden of Eden’ wetlands at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers,” for which President Bush’s 2005 gave $100 million.
June 8, 2004: Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the Times-Picayune:
Walter Maestri: It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq , and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

September 22, 2004: The Times-Picayune reported that a pilot study on raising the height of the levees surrounding New Orleans had been completed and generated enough information for a second study necessary to estimate the cost of doing so. The Bush administration “ordered the New Orleans district office” of the Army Corps of Engineers “not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money.”
June 6, 2005: The New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper reported that the New Orleans district of the Corps was preparing for a $71.2 million reduction in overall funding for the fiscal year beginning in October. That would have been the largest single-year funding loss ever. They noted that money “was so tight" that "the New Orleans district, which employs 1,300 people, instituted a hiring freeze last month on all positions,” which was “the first of its kind in about 10 years.”
"I'm not saying it wouldn't still be flooded, but I do feel that if it had been totally funded, there would be less flooding than you have," said Michael Parker, a former Republican Mississippi congressman who headed the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, when he was FIRED after publicly criticizing a Bush administration proposal to cut the corps' budget. The current lackie tells the media (for fear of being FIRED as well) that it wouldn't have mattered and the media happily repeats that LIE.

If you want all the links, I'll provide them. Just didn't have the time today. Those of you who support the Bush administration ought to think twice about your sources. They DO NOT work in the public interest. They work in the interest of the wealth minority with a following of hapless misinformed victims who don't even realize they are being had because the media is a part of the wealthy minority fed heartily by these people you all elected.
George Bush and his cronies are going around stating that "Nobody anticipated breach of the levees?"
That is a bald faced LIE and Diane Sawyer should have called him out on it when she gave him that butt kissing interview on the so-called "liberal" ABC Good Morning America show. But she didn't. And neither do any of them. Because they aren't "liberal".




With all due resapect

John