> "I have both WD TV LIVE and BOXEE BOX.... both FAR better than apple tv."

Yea, I didn't try the Boxee. It may be a lot better but that's my point. There were too many choices in a fragmented market with standards like DLNA that didn't always work. So I picked a few components that didn't work together. That was a few hundred dollars wasted. Then I bought a $99 Apple TV and it all worked. I'm not saying it's better. All I'm saying is it worked and I didn't have to invest several weekends to get it to work. I brought it home, plugged it in, and it worked. That was my customer experience.

> "And the other thing.... this idea you have about tablets taking over pc's.... you've been drinking too much apple kool-ade!"

I'm just reporting what I'm seeing as a trend in my life. I use my iPad more than my PC on some days (not every day). I use to come home from work and get on the PC and check my emails and check the forums, etc. I do all of that on my iPad now while sitting on my couch. I use to drag my MIDI keyboard over to my PC to make music. Now I bring my iPad over to my MIDI keyboard and make music. I probably still spend more time on my laptop at work during the day, but that too may change over time. Who knows?. I see more an more people with iPads in waiting rooms that they would never had brought a laptop to. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing and experiencing.

> "And Apple stability.... firstly, I am absolutely amazed to see so many google hits on macs crashing since the apple software is SPECIFICALLY designed for the hardware in question.... yet it happens."

Yea, software is inherently flaky. That's why it's importan to be able to kill it when it goes bad. I'll tell you the Apple Store app on my MacBook Pro is scary. I have had problems where it stopped working and I had to delete some cache files under the ./Library folder and on my iPad every time I order an app it complains about some old app that I had installed and deleted long ago and there is no bash shell to fix that one. So, I'm not saying that Apple software is flawless. Far from it. I'm just saying that the features are very well integrated and more productive to use. (just my personal experience)

> "Point of fact: The old fashioned mouse/keyboard ARE AND REMAIN the most effective and efficient ways of inputting data... and tablets don't change this fact"

I can't argue with you there. I REALLY miss having cursor keys on the iPad and not having a Home and End key drives me crazy. So yes, they still have some work to do on data input when it comes to tablets. But you could always get a wireless keyboard but that kind of defeats the whole table thing. So it's not good for everything, but the things it is good for it really makes life easier. Kinda of the "right tool for the right job" thing.

> "My advice to you.... try to cut down on this Apple kool-ade you drink.... it's making you see things that aren't really there."

Everyone sees only what they want to see and everyone sees life through our own personal set of filters. What is reality? Who could really say? All we have is our own "perception" of reality. Mine just happens to be more blissful when I'm using my iPad. lol :-D (shhh... don't disturb my bliss)

~jr

"I'm just reporting what I'm seeing as a trend in my life. I use my iPad more than my PC on some days (not every day). I use to come home from work and get on the PC and check my emails and check the forums, etc. I do all of that on my iPad now while sitting on my couch. I use to drag my MIDI keyboard over to my PC to make music. Now I bring my iPad over to my MIDI keyboard and make music. I probably still spend more time on my laptop at work during the day, but that too may change over time. Who knows?. I see more an more people with iPads in waiting rooms that they would never had brought a laptop to. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing and experiencing"

Yup... they make for really great portable devices... there is no doubt about that.... really great EXTENSIONS to the pc. But REPLACING a pc is a different ball game altogether. Not possible... not now, not in the future. Apple marketing hype is all it is.

Apple clearly understands that it has lost the PC war and doesn't have a chance in hell in catching up so they're starting a.... "post pc" era. The only problem is that the tablet is simply another form of pc (so the slogan isn't even really correct) and it's just not an efficient pc for long duration users. As already stated, touch screen has been around for years and has gone no where in any area which requires large amounts of data input. Nothing beats the mouse and keyboard for that. It all requires very little body movement relative to other input means.

Funny... I always remember that movie MINORITY REPORT where tom Cruise is standing there waiving his arms and hands in order to flip pages and draw pictures on the screen. Absolutely COOL method of input and control! But in reality TOTALLY unrealistic because of all the extra (and entirely unnecessary) body involvement. Can you imagine doing that sort of thing 8 hours a day, 5 days a week?!? We'd have to double the salaries of all the clerical staff throughout the industry. Well.... touch screens never really took off for long duration users for the very same reasons.

I TOTALLY AGREE SONY.
NOW IS THE TIME TO RELEASE THE MAC VERSION.
Apple has committed Hari-Kari with Final Cut 10 and now is the time to strike!! Take advantage of Apple's short-sightedness.
Release Vegas Pro for Mac and dominate the video editing arena.
Also make Flash one of the output formats, before it is destroyed.

ake advantage of Apple's short-sightedness.

- Vegas probably will NOT be dominating any Video Editing Arena until it can speak the language of a production house.

"Vegas probably will NOT be dominating any Video Editing Arena until it can speak the language of a production house."

This is true.

JohnnyRoy, it's nice to see your mellow responses. Oftentimes these PC/Apple discussions devolve into a-- "Oh yeah?" "Yeah!" "You're an idiot!" "No, you're the idiot!" --kind of flame war.

Maybe it's the bliss that the iPad had brought you...

As for Minority Report, I thought the same thing. But on second thought, hey, maybe companies can adopt this sort of interface in order to give office personnel their daily workout. Who needs a health club when you have been waving your arms and standing 8 hours a day?

And as for bringing a laptop into a doctor's office, yes, I did that in the past. Now I just bring in my smartphone, which is always with me. Great tool for surfing, email, reading books, whatever.

Really supprised this thread is still going.... its NOT going to happen people. SCS is not funded enough (by Sony), has not enough software engineers, has legacy code written back some 10-12 years ago embedded in it and cannot be managed.. And probably more problems that we 'dont' know about on top of that.
As already clearly pointed out many times in this thread, its TOO MUCH effort (read - not enough resources) to change over to OSX from Windows.

sorry.

Paul.

> "JohnnyRoy, it's nice to see your mellow responses. Oftentimes these PC/Apple discussions devolve into a-- "Oh yeah?" "Yeah!" "You're an idiot!" "No, you're the idiot!" --kind of flame war. Maybe it's the bliss that the iPad had brought you..."

Perhaps it has something to do with the bliss that my iPad has brought me (lol)... but it probably has more to do with my Christian beliefs of treating people with the same respect that you wish to be treated. ;-)

> "And as for bringing a laptop into a doctor's office, yes, I did that in the past. Now I just bring in my smartphone, which is always with me. Great tool for surfing, email, reading books, whatever."

Yea, I mean the productivity increase is through the roof. I use to spend hours doing personal email at night after work. Now I can get most of that done throughout the day and I have more time for my family. Its really liberating to be able to do this on the go.

~jr

Having not read the whole thread perhaps someone has already said this but can we get v11 stable on Windows first?

@spectralis - ;-)

"As recently as last fall i've still run into Mac users who vehemently proclaim, "you can't do anything artistic such as music or video or graphics with Windows; you can only do that stuff on a Mac"

Chien,
It's the truth. I too know people who suffer the great distress of Apple myopia. I recently read the biography of Steve Jobs and it was full of it. Steve was the worst. I agree Macs are good systems but certainly not superior. And anyone who thinks - people who use macs think different - are really just suckers who bought into a multi-billion dollar machine who was trying to save its @#$#@ from bankruptcy. Apple found their magic - telling people if they use windows then there's some cosmic force keeping you from being a true artist. HOGWASH!

I agree. PLEASE Sony, make Vegas available for Mac. I'm currently running a Windows 7 x64 on my desktop at home and use that machine for all my editing needs with Vegas 11. But I have a MacBook Pro that I use on the go, obviously not for any editing since Sony isn't available for Macs. I love both Windows and Mac machines equally. Each one has their strong points where the other lacks. The biggest one being that Macs crash less. I've had my MacBook Pro for almost three years now. Have only had a couple crashes within that time. Windows crashes a lot more, but I don't want to get into that discussion. Why I want Vegas for my Mac is because I'd like to be able to edit things on the go without having to install Parallels or Bootcamp. So please Sony, make a Mac version of Vegas.

"The biggest one being that Macs crash less"
Sadly, I think Vegas Pro 11 can fix that. ;-)

deusx wrote: "Why would you take anything hiking? It's not really hiking then. The whole point of hiking is to leave electronic crap behind. You take a phone for emergency and keep it off. You only turn it on and call for help if your life is in danger, otherwise don't touch. You watch the movie when you get back home, or is that so difficult?"

I agree with the last part of your statement. I don't understand the craze -- that the manufactures always push -- with watching movies on tablets and phones. Watching a short clip from Youtube maybe, but not full movies.

However the first part has some flawed logic. Some people go hiking to enjoy the hike and see the environment. Not because they want to escape civilization. Arguing that the phone should always be shut off when hiking makes as much sense as saying it should be shut off when at home or when driving or during any other task not directly involving the people who might call.

But then I'm also the kind of person who doesn't answer the phone just because it rings. I always try to give the people around me priority over someone calling and it annoys me when others answer their phone right in the middle of a thought or serious conversation (most of the time just to say "let me call you back").


Then finally, to at least make this on topic with the thread, there seems to be a lot of things in Vegas that use the Windows infrastructure. It would be a major effort to port it over to OSX. I really doubt it is going to happen. From what I hear the programming environment is nothing like the Windows/Linux tools. Then the potential audience is probably to small compared to the amount of effort to build OSX libraries to match what is on Windows. It's the same reason you don't see major games being ported to OSX. They would rather publish for Windows, XBOX, Playstation long before they deal with the hassle of writing to OSX. It's difficult to prove, but sites dedicated to things like Photoshop Crash Reports makes me think Apple has issues with their APIs.

ShaneJ wrote: " The biggest one being that Macs crash less. I've had my MacBook Pro for almost three years now. Have only had a couple crashes within that time. Windows crashes a lot more, but I don't want to get into that discussion. "

One thing I've noticed through trial and error over the last 25 years of building computers is that a $1,500 computer crashes a lot less than a $500 computer. However I have seen $500 computers run stable. I think it's likely that when you spend more on parts you are less likely to get flaws. Whether that is because the manufacturer spends more money on driver development or parts or both, I don't know.

I haven't purchased as many laptops as I have built desktops for people, but I suspect that $1,500 laptops are going to be more stable, on average, than $500 laptops. Therefore I'm not impressed when people claim Mac is so much better than PC better because the $2,000 piece of Mac hardware works much better than the previously owned $500 PC unit.

Then you have the side effect of the Windows selection of software which significantly out dwarfs the OSX selection. I could name probably a thousand niche Windows applications that are non existent or have less functional versions on OSX.

Windows is definitely the platform to be on, assuming you get stable hardware and drivers.

I think that SCS doesn't get enough credit for Vegas, given the size of the organization. SCS would have to be a lot bigger organizationthan it is to take on the task of writing a cross-platform application, especially one where performance is critical.

As for claims that 'it just works' - well that kind of integration is just way too easy to do if you're writing applications for an OS that you control, on a hardware platform you control also. Apple's had the good luck to see its major successes in recent years instead of earlier. Due to the change in political climate over the years, Apple has been getting away with behavior that brought Microsoft and IBM before the courts. Still, some of it is so egregious that eve today's prosecutors can't ignore - re: the ebook situation.

That said, there's nothing particular to Mac OSX that makes it a standout. From a UI programming standpoint, Objective C is a wash - I'd rather go with C interfaces.You just have to take your NextStep and eat it on the Mac... BSD...meh...

The Windows API is far more mature. Contrary to popular belief, Windows API's rarely change - they just get extended wile maintaining backward compatibility. I quite doubt that PC are any more unstable than Mac or even Linux, all factors being equal. There's just more desktop PC's running Windows out there than any other OS. Funny though, the recent reports on Mac viruses. The "What, me worry?" - "it just works'" crowd is ripe for the picking.

I don't see this happening any time soon, and I have no stake in it personally, since I'm not a Mac person. However, there are a few reasons why I wouldn't want Sony to be focusing on this at the moment.

1. It would seem that V11 has various stability problems, and I think smoothing out Vegas on Windows should top the list of priorities before adapting it to a completely new platform.

2. I don't want to see the cost of the software rise to offset development costs for getting Vegas onto OSX. I don't own a Mac, and I don't really want to subsidize Vegas on a Mac via my own purchase. There are already options to edit on OSX; admittedly none of them are as affordable, but if Vegas moved to be multiplatform I'm sure it would no longer be as affordable, either. Surely, if you can afford a $1500+ laptop or however many thousands one of those Mac Pro desktops cost, you can swing the price for Final Cut Pro, Avid Media Composer, or Adobe's Production Premium collection.

3. Is Apple even really pushing actual computers anymore? At this point, they must make the bulk of their money from iPad, iPhone and iPod sales (in addition to the ridiculous premium they charge on iPhone monthly plans, which carriers pass along to the consumer), not laptops; and definitely not desktops. The Mac Pro desktop line hasn't even been updated in 3 years or so. Sure, you can get a dual CPU, 12 core Xeon system... but ANCIENT Xeons. I'm not sure SCS should bother porting to OSX when Apple themselves are moving, year by year, towards not even being much of a computer manufacturer. If most of their money comes from iStuff, you can get that's the part of their business that's going to get the most attention.

Let's beat this horse some more...

1. Agreed. First things first.

2. Agreed. I doubt there's much market share space in the Mac arena for another major editor without taking that from another. That might force application prices down, but it also reduces revenue opportunities. Where's the upside?

3. Apple is making the the greatest share of its money on iPhones, iPads, and the iTollGate (AppStore) - yet Samsung and others outsell them. They are worried about when the party is gonna end. In order to boost revenues and retain what market share they have, they start attacking other companies over ridiculous patent claims such as gestures and other UI elements which IMHO shouldn't even *be* patent-able. Last I heard, Apple claims *they* invented the rectangle.

Truth is, Apple's greatest ROI is in marketing and industrial design - not that their product are all that revolutionary.

how about making vegas 11 compatible with windows!

another day, another replaced media bug. have just installed latest version - if this doesn't cure it then i'm afraid vegas isn't going to compatible on any system i run, windows or mac ;-(

Sometimes I wonder if Apple's success is going to be like an explosion. Meaning it has a spectacular existence for a really short time.

For a long time Apple had a really rough start building interesting products that seemed to go no where due to Apple's aggressive proprietary-ness. Then recently with the 3rd and later versions of the iPod they seemed to finally figure out the right formula.

However I wonder if their over protective nature is eventually going to be their downfall (again) like a dog trying to protect it's food bowl even from the hand that puts food in the food bowl.

Things like:
Overly restrictive app submission policies (Amazon not being able to sell ebooks from within the Kindle app without giving apple a cut of each book sale).
Suing over trivial things that wouldn't really be an issue for most level headed companies.
Losing backward compatibility with various OS releases just because they didn't want to take the effort when moving forward to new infrastructure. (apparently this applies to Final Cut Pro as well)

It reads like a list of things Windows specifically avoided as it become the dominant OS (Android following suit). I have to imagine eventually the sparkle will wear off for most people.

Good post.

I wonder too if Apple's gonna pop at some point. Like I said earlier, Apple's gonna fight it in the political arena. Right now, they're working congress trying to get a 'Tax Holiday' passed so that they can repatriate all their foreign profits to the US tax free. Creeps.

Apple is worse today than Microsoft was in the past - and I'm no Microsoft fanboi - I've been complaining about the MS 'Borg' for years. Microsoft's sins were mainly against it's competitors. Apple's are against it consumers.


There is upside to Apple knocking MS off the top of the financial hill.

Even though it has the lion's share of market space, they only way MS can increase revenues is to increase value. That means better applications and services. This contrasts to Apple, who can only increase revenues through rent seeking. They'd have to increase the number of folks they sell to - but the value isn't there at the prices they charge, and there's only so many vanity consumers.

Thus they worry.

How about when Logic returns to PC and Garage Band goes Windows, then Sony will have an excuse to go Mac.

I guess Mac users are frightened by the price of Avid.