Rendering Not Matching What I see in Timeline/Monitor

prejto wrote on 11/22/2022, 9:21 PM

Hello, I know I'm behind the times using ver 13 but it still suits my needs.

I've run into a surprising issue that I don't know how to solve. I have a 854x480 video 59.940 fps that has some line artifacts that appear randomly in the video over two frames. I have placed a jpeg lasting 2 frames (edited to remove the line error) on top of the actual video. When I play the timeline the line errors are completely removed. However, when I render the video to mp4 using Sony AVC/MVC at 59.940 only some of the lines are removed. Also, on some experimental clips I have noted that the original video is 38 sec 15 frames and the render is 38 sec 14 frames. This seems odd. Also, if I drag the jpeg to cover 3 or 4 frames it may or may not remove the line in the render. I cannot figure out why this works sometimes and not other times - this partial solution should be unnecessary.

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Comments

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2022, 11:39 PM

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 12:45 AM

Hi John,

Hopefully this helps? The lines are from a DVD that I converted to 59 fps using Topaz Video AI. The lines were I believe were added to give the appearance of an old film. I'm trying to get rid of them. They come and go randomly lasting two frames. I've upped some screens. When the jpeg is placed over the two frames the line is gone. After rendering the line may or may not appear on a single frame but never over two frames. Odd! If I stretch the jpg to cover 3/4 frames the error goes away. Sometimes 3 frames works if I cover the frame before the error. Sometimes I need to add an extra frame on both sides of the error. I can't discover any predictable pattern of why it works or doesn't work.

Thanks for your help!

P

Not sure what notification settings you want me to change in my profile?

RogerS wrote on 11/23/2022, 12:58 AM

I don't have a version that old installed but could it be an issue where frames aren't quantized (or there's a mismatch between footage framerate and project) so the jpeg isn't fully covering the frame as expected?

Maybe double-check the source with MediaInfo.

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 1:20 AM

Hi Roger, I can confirm that Mediainfo confirms the source footage to match exactly the project settings. I don't understand what "quantized" means re frames.

Thanks for your comment!

P

RogerS wrote on 11/23/2022, 1:47 AM

Great. Current versions of Vegas have a setting to quantize video to frame boundaries and also to snap media like jpegs to frame boundaries. Are the jpegs lining up properly? You wouldn't want them starting/stopping in the middle of a frame.

The oldest version of Vegas I have installed here is 15.

Otherwise maybe it's a GPU or dynamic ram preview issue but I'm surprised to see that on a version older than 14. You can try turning off GPU preview or setting dynamic ram preview to 0MB in Vegas preferences.

 

RogerS wrote on 11/23/2022, 2:08 AM

If it exists in 13 you can also try going into internal preferences (hold down shift while entering preferences) and changing show unquantized event edges to TRUE. Here it is in 15:

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2022, 10:42 AM

@prejto

You said: "I have a 854x480 video 59.940 fps", but your project properties are set to 856x480.

I suspect you're working with this line?

In Vegas 13, check Options for Quantize and Snap.

Also, please state Ruler Time Format in Project Properties.

 

Last changed by john_dennis on 11/23/2022, 10:45 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 1:42 PM

My bad! The video and jpgs are 856x480. I have corrected that. I'm not sure where the extra 2 pix entered the scene.

My options for Quantize/Snap were set correctly. I have modified unquantized Events to "TRUE" in preferences.

Attached is a screen of ruler settings. Is this correct?

Thanks!!

DMT3 wrote on 11/23/2022, 2:46 PM

Does the same thing happen if you lay the jpg in the same track as opposed to an upper track?

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2022, 5:12 PM

@prejto

Since your vertical defect is only 4 pixels wide at the maximum,

I suspect your inaccurate pixel dimension settings in Project Properties are implicated in your difficulty.

As @DMT3 alluded to, if you replace the video on the same track with one frame of the still image that you've fixed, I'll give you my Double Your Money Back Warranty that you will get the results you're after.

This is Howie Duit.

Last changed by john_dennis on 11/23/2022, 5:23 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 5:18 PM

DMT3, Thanks for your idea. Unfortunately this makes no difference whatsoever to the render. I play the timeline and all the noise I fixed is gone 100%. I render the video and the noise is still there in almost every single edit point. But, now the noise is reduced from 2 frames to one frame. Nothing has changed by adjusting project settings or Quantize changes as mentioned above.

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 5:44 PM

Hello John,

Your help is much appreciated. Perhaps I misunderstood DMT3 and ran the experiment incorrectly. I simply placed the corrected jpgs on the same video track that contained the errors. You used the word "replace" which I think means I should cut out the bad 2 frames and insert the corrected jpg. Is that correct? I have corrected the pixel dimensions in properties. This has not changed the render in any way.

I notice in the image you posted that it indicates still images 5 sec/150 frames at 29.97. Could this be the issue? The project frame rate is double that. Is the render possibly "seeing" the jpg still image at the wrong frame rate? That might explain why I sometimes need 4 frames to eliminate a 2 frame error????

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2022, 6:31 PM

@prejto

"You used the word "replace" which I think means I should cut out the bad 2 frames and insert the corrected jpg. Is that correct?"

That's correct.

"I have corrected the pixel dimensions in properties. This has not changed the render in any way."

Have you changed the pixel dimensions of the still you were using to patch the video? It was 856x480.

"I notice in the image you posted that it indicates still images 5 sec/150 frames at 29.97. Could this be the issue? The project frame rate is double that."

Setting the length of still images when added to the timeline is a convenience when working with one or two frames. 5 Seconds is way too big and causes too much disturbance in the timeline. My project happened to be 29.97p. The intent is to set it to one frame at your frame rate.

"Is the render possibly "seeing" the jpg still image at the wrong frame rate?"

Still images don't have a frame rate. The Vegas Project frame rate is applied.

"That might explain why I sometimes need 4 frames to eliminate a 2 frame error????"

 I'm just going to let that one drop...

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2022, 6:41 PM

@prejto

"...the noise is still there in almost every single edit point."

If you play the source video in a player, are the vertical lines visible or do they just appear because of your edits?

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 6:55 PM

The noise/lines are clearly visible in the source video! They have nothing to do with my edits. My edits are an attempt to eliminate the noise.

I can try adjusting the default length of the still when adding it to the time line. The way I've been doing it is to move the cursor to the first frame that shows the defect, then add the corrected jpg, advance the cursor 2 frames, make a cut at that point and delete everything following the cut. Playing the timeline there is no evidence of the vertical line...

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2022, 7:03 PM

@prejto

  1. Post screenshot of render template.
  2. Also. Your original files were 29.97i before they were converted to 59.94p?

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 7:35 PM

2. Yes

prejto wrote on 11/23/2022, 9:12 PM

The mystery grows deeper!

I cut out the two bad frames and inserted 2 frames of jpg. Most of the time it works, but sometimes I still get a line! If I place the jpg on top and make it 3 frames long, where the extra frame is one frame before the first split, the line is gone.

All I can think of is there must be some "deficiency" about the way Vegas is displaying individual frames.

DMT3 wrote on 11/23/2022, 9:44 PM

Looking again at your screenshot, it looks like you have Split-screen effx preview enabled. Have you tried disabling that? It should stay disabled unless you need to see the effect of an effect. Also, just a note, there is no reason to ever turn quantize to frames off. It should always be on.

jetdv wrote on 11/24/2022, 7:59 AM

Here's what I would do. Split the video after the bad frames. Now go a frame before the bad frames, right-click, and choose "Insert/Remove Envelope - Freeze Frame at Cursor". Then you don't have to worry about snapshots and matching sizes or anything else.

john_dennis wrote on 11/24/2022, 10:12 AM

That's a good idea @jetdv, but Freeze Frame at Cursor was introduced in Vegas Pro 15. @prejto is on Vegas Pro 13.

Event Velocity still works in 13, but you have to roll your own.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

jetdv wrote on 11/24/2022, 10:34 AM

Well, the velocity envelope still seems the easier option than having to mess with images and aspects and everything else discussed in this thread even if you do have to manually add the points.

john_dennis wrote on 11/24/2022, 11:19 AM

I agree.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

prejto wrote on 11/24/2022, 2:55 PM

John and Jetdv, I appreciate this discussion but confess that I am lost with the recent exchange! Would one of you kindly explain how a velocity envelope would be used to solve the issue? Thank you!