scaling of clips on timeline

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 11:49 AM

Hi, I am somewhat new to Vegas Pro in some ways, transitioning from Adober Premier Pro. I have just started a new project which will produce my first 4K UHD Blu Ray disk. My source material is image sequences which are of higher resoution and lower aspect ratio than 4K. There are at least three ways I would like to display these clips. First, I might want to show the entire frame without cutting any off or stretching. This will result in black bars to the right and left of the image and of course, pixel interpolation. This is what I am getting by default. The second way is I might want to fill the 4K frame, which means some of the top and bottom of the image will be cut off. This of course will result in pixel interpolation. I should be able to raise and lower the image to select what part of the image sequence will be shown. Finally, I might want to display the image at a 1 to 1 pixel ratio, so that there is no pixel interplation. This would mean that some of the top, bottom and sides will be cut off. I should then be able to move the image right/left/up and down to select which part of the image will be shown. This is all very easy in Premier. In Premier I change the upper left window from clip preview to Effects. It then shows settings for the selected clip. Here, under motion, there is position and scale. If I want a 1:1 pixel ratio I set the scale at 100%. Or I can zoom in and out, and use position to move the image up and down. I can't find a similar setting in Vegas Pro. I am trying to work with Event Pan/Crop. But this doesn't seem to work. here I see the resolution of the original images. It looks like position will be easy to adjust here. But I don't see a zoom or scale control. Where do I make this adjustment and how do I know when the image is at a 1:1 pixel ratio ?

Comments

Arthur.S wrote on 11/22/2016, 12:29 PM

Does dragging the handles and moving it around do what you want? Here's a youtube tutorial if you're not familiar. 

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 1:39 PM

I watched the tutorial. I have mask unchecked.When I grab the corners of the image and resize I can reduce how much of the image is shown, but not its scale. If I show less of the image, the image doesn't get bigger in the preview window, instead, less is shown and.so the size is reduced. If I rotate, the mask rotates, but not the image. If I check mask, the corner and edge markers dissappear and I cannot make changes to size or rotation, except in display.

GJeffrey wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:11 PM

Have you tried to uncheck the box  "fit to fill the frame" on the left hand side of the pan and crop window?

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:18 PM

I changed "Stretch to fit" in Source from no to yes and now I can resize the original image. But for some reason there are still black bars on the sides. I changed "Maintain Aspect" in Source from Yes to No and now the black bars on the sides go away. I have "Lock Aspect Ratio" checked. So I think everything is working now. But how do I know when I am at a 1:1 pixel ratio ?

Zulqar_Cheema wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:20 PM

Do do this option " Finally, I might want to display the image at a 1 to 1 pixel ratio, so that there is no pixel interplation"

Click on the Event Pan / Crop icon of the image,

On the image right click and select Match output aspect

The image will be cropped and you can also do any panning and scanning if required, just mack sure the Sync Curser is click at bottom of the tab, so that you automatically get keyframes

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:21 PM

I do not see a "fit to fill the frame" opton. Perhaps it has been renamed to "Stretch to fit".

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:28 PM

When I right-clicked and selected Match Output Aspect, it goes back to the default where the image is sized so none is cut off. It fills to the top and bottom but has black bars onthe sides. If the pixels match, some of all four sides should be cut off since my source is 4928 X 3280. 4K is something like 3880 X 2160.

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:37 PM

I'm not talking about image aspect ratio. I am talking about using exactly one pixel from the source image for each pixel in the destination image so that there is no pixel interpolation used.

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:42 PM

"But how do I know when I am at a 1:1 pixel ratio?"

With UHD Project Properties (3840x2160):

Sorry, my screen capture program doesn't capture the popups for "Lock Aspect Ratio", "Size About Center" and the switches that lock movement within the Pan/Crop dialog.

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 2:50 PM

Of course project properties set the output resolution. I think the answer is I need simply to type in 4096 in the Position > Width window to make it match the output resolution. I was looking at project properties and I see that in Vegas Pro, 4K is 4096 X 2304. But the only default 4K setting is 24 FPS. That can't be right. Surely 4K supports 29.97 FPS. So I havve my project set that way and it says "Custom" instead of 4K. Can that be right. I haven't gotten as far as DVD architect with this yet. Does DVD architect make 4K Blu Ray disks ? At 4096 X 2304 at 29.97 FPS ? My assumption has been that if DVD architect doesn't yet support 4K Blu Ray, then it probably will soon. 

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 3:16 PM

3840x2160 at various frame rates.

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 4:09 PM

Than the 4K presets in Vegas Pro 13 were not meant for Blu Ray production ?

Quitter wrote on 11/22/2016, 4:13 PM

Off topic:

Sorry, my screen capture program doesn't capture the popups ...

OBS Studio 0.16.6 does it

Camcorder: Sony CX 520 VE
Hardware:   Acer NG-A717-72G-71YD, Win 11 , i7-8750 H, 16GB, GTX 1060 6GB, 250GB SSD, 1TB HDD
NLE:  Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 Build 453
            Vegas Pro 14.0 Build 270
            Vegas Pro 21.0 Build 300

 

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 4:25 PM

"Than the 4K presets in Vegas Pro 13 were not meant for Blu Ray production?"

You should set your Project Properties to QFHD

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 4:39 PM

"OBS Studio 0.16.6 does it"

Thanks Quitter.

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 4:59 PM

"Of course project properties set the output resolution."

That's not literally true in Vegas. The Render As dialog box is where the output resolution is controlled. Life is joyeous when source, Project Properties, and render properties all match. Some of us get little joy at all. 

"But the only default 4K setting is 24 FPS."

That shouldn't be surprising since most movies are shot at 24 fps. (Often delivered at 23.976 fps)

"Does DVD architect make 4K Blu Ray disks?"

I haven't used DVDA 7, but I don't think the application makes UHD Blu-ray discs. Right now there are not many players in the channel or on the street. Unless you are looking at making UHD Blu-ray discs for sale, you should focus on 3840x2160 (AVC video, AAC audio in an MP4 wrapper) for electronic delivery or playing on your 4K TV.

Here's a recent discussion about that.

Welcome to the Vegas Forum. You'll find most people here cantankerous but quite willing to help other users.

Crash wrote on 11/22/2016, 5:19 PM

About a year abd a half ago I produced some 4K video files. My computers aren't fast enough to play them. I want to see them in 4K on an OLED 4K monitor. I took the files to Best Buy on a USB 3.0 flash drive. Best Buy will let me play them from the flash but will not put them on their servers. The flash is too slow so playback is low frame rate with ocassional bursts of full speed playback for a second or two. Now that Best Buy is selling 4K Blu Ray movies, I want to walk in with a 4K Blu Ray. If they have 4K players yet, they ought to let me play it. I can live with 24 FPS. But I think 4K goes up to 60P, but perhaps not on Blu Ray disks.

john_dennis wrote on 11/22/2016, 6:09 PM

"I can live with 24 FPS. But I think 4K goes up to 60P, but perhaps not on Blu Ray disks."

Some encoders in Vegas are agnostic about frame rate. Select a different one than what is offered or type in something completely silly into the field. If you're delivering for broadcast or making discs where a standards organization sets the rules, then you have to play by their rules.  

Crash wrote on 11/23/2016, 4:53 PM

On further examination I see that it's still not right. Here's the problem.

When I turn on "Maintain Aspect Ratio" under Source, the original image grows ans shrinks in program monitor. But as the top and bottom of the image fills the view and touches the bottom and top of the window, the sides of the image can no longer grow, as if a mask on the side is determined to maintain the aspect ratio of the image. I can never make it large enough to come any closer to filling out to the sides. If I turn off Maintain Aspect Ratio, the source image can now fill the monitor. but now the image is stretched horizintally, which is not good.

john_dennis wrote on 11/23/2016, 7:51 PM

Media with 4:3 pixel dimensions are never going to map 1 to 1 into a 16x9 frame and fill the whole frame without shrinking or stretching. Leave "Maintain Aspect Ratio" checked for accurate appearance and crop into the media to the output aspect ratio, 16x9, until it displays all the artistry that went into the shoot. If the result looks bad or you don't want two of the edges to align with the edges of the display, set the crop box larger than the image until it looks tasteful to you.

No matter how you jigger it, there's a 99.74926390% chance your output will be viewed on a panel whose native resolution is 1280x720, 1920x1080 or 3840x2160.  

Crash wrote on 11/24/2016, 11:51 AM

Now I am totally confused. Crop box ? Is that part of Vegas ? Can I get rid of it ?

Here's the thing, my source image (stream) is much larger than the output format. I want a small portion of my source to fill the output frame, without stretching it. Let's talk about a hypothetical situation to make things simpler. Lets first imagine we are working with a single frame instead of thousands of frames. Let's say the hypothetical source frame is 5000 pixels wide, and 5000 pixels tall,square. Lets say the hypothetical output frame is 1000 pixels wide by 500 pixels tall 2:1. I want to be able to take a small part of the source that is 1000 X 500 pixels and map it to the output. Vegas seems to want to prevent me from doing this by cutting off the sides of the output image to maintain the source image aspect ratio, and so I can never fill the sides of the output image. So Vegas only lets me use a part of the source that is 500 x 500 pixles, to force the portion of the image sent to the output to be square. So now 250 pixels on the right and left are black and the part of the image that is displayed is square. It doesn't seem right to me. I should be able to take a part of the source that is 1000 X 500 pixels and map it to the 1000 x 500 pixel output. In Premier if I set the scale to 100%, the same number of source pixels as the output format are used, and fill the output frame no matter what the aspect ratio of the source image is. I can move the source image around to select which part of it I want displayed. Surely there is a way to get Vegas to output the same number of pixels from the source image to the output image. Am I missing something ? In other words, I don't want my pixels stretched. I do want to use the same number of pixels from the source as are in the output format.

Here I was talking about a 1:1 pixel ratio, but it should also work the same if I were mapping a portion of the source that is only half as many pixels, by stretching the image horizontally and vertically by the same amount so it is magnified, but not stretched more in one direction than another. Similarly, if I wanted to map a portion of the source that is 2000 X 1000 pixels it should squeeze the image to fit, but again, it should squeeze it the same amount vertically and horizontally so the source does not appear stretched.

What I am getting is that Vegas is either stretching my image horizontally so it appears stretched, or it cuts off the sides of the image so it doesn't fill the output.

 

Crash wrote on 11/24/2016, 12:02 PM

Or to put it a totally different way, checking Maintain Aspect Ratio seems to have two effects instead of just one. I would expect it to prevent the image from being stretched or shrunk more in one direction than another, so that a picture of a square grid will still have a square grid. But it also seems to force the portion of the image which is used, to remain the same aspect ratio as the source.

Kinvermark wrote on 11/24/2016, 12:45 PM

Wow, seems complicated!  

All this scaling/stretching/maintain aspect ratio stuff is confusing and easy to get wrong.

Why don't you try this instead...

1) put a photo on the timeline (something with lots of pixels and not 16:9).

2) Click the pan/crop button on the media event

3) Select a "preset" from the top bar:   "default" will show photo scaled down,  16 by 9 wide will crop off top/bottom, etc.

4) If you want a widescreen movie look for artistic purposes, then the easiest is to make a photo with black bars top and bottom and transparent in the middle and put that on the timeline above your media. (You can download a whole pack of these for free - google search on Free Letterbox Templates.)

You can use various project settings to get different timeline sizes:   e.g. 4096 x 2160 for 4k DCI (film) or  3840 x 2160 for UHD (TV 4k) in a 16:9 aspect ratio. Frame rates are independent (and another topic!)

Question: where are you getting a 4K Blu-ray burner and blank 4k Blu-ray media?  Cost?

Crash wrote on 11/24/2016, 1:34 PM

As long as the project fits, a 25 GB or 50 GB Blu Ray should work fine. Most of my computers can burn these. Commercial 4K releases probably use 100 GB blu rays because they need the space. I don't have a burner that can work with these. I don't know if DVD Architect can work with these either. I see they now have 200 GB 4 layer Blu Rays. I prefer Verbatum Blu Ray recordables and also use re-recordables for some applications. I buy them on Amazon where 100 GB blu rays are also available, as are 4K players and 4K video blu rays. For example, Enders Game, Men in Black, one of thr recent Star Trek movies, and independnce day are all available on 4K blu ray. If/when I find I can make a 4K blu ray that will play on 4K Blu Ray players, I will get a 4K player (region free and 3D of course) and 4K TV. Really, I think we need a 4K version of the Panasonic PT-AE8000 because the largest consumer 4K televisions aren't large enough to really see the advantage of 4K clearly.

FYI, I have been successfully making 1080 Blu Rays for a few years, and frame sequential 3D blu rays for nearly a year. Now, since I am shooting some things at better than 4K resolution, I want to be able to make 4K Blu Rays.Soon I will be able to shoot 3D at better than 4K and then I will want to be able to make 3D 4K Blu Rays. Not sure if they have a standard for that yet.

I will try the suggestions above in a bit and get back with comments. I should say, I am wanting to output 16:9 4K at 3840 X 2160. I do not want letterbox or any borders in my production. I have already done all of this in Premier. I am repeating it in Vegas because Adobe is no longer able to update Encore. So Encore will never be able to make 4K disks, or to use 100 GB (or larger) Blu Rays, or frame sequential 3D. Encore is to Premier what DVD Architect is to Vegas.