Shooting/Editing/Distributing Progressive Footage

Videoimpressions0622 wrote on 3/12/2016, 1:08 PM

I plan to shoot an interview with 2 cameras (Sony NX-5U and Sony AX-33), edit on Sony Vegas Pro 13 and if I produce disks, author on Sony DVD Architect Pro 6. Several colleagues have told me that they prefer 30P over 60i (better video quality). Since I never have delved into progressive shooting (always shoot at 1080 60i), I have a number of questions:

1) The NX-5U's max progressive frame rate is 30p; the AX-33 does not have 30p capabilities, but DOES offer 60p.

2) So can I mix 30p and 60p footage on the same timeline? If so, will there be any noticeable differences between the two camera's recordings, as they will be shooting the same subject?

3) If acceptable results can be obtained using this methodology, which project settings should I use? Would they differ depending upon the media used in the final output (e.g. DVD, Blu-ray, thumbdrive, web, etc.)?

4) Will Sony Vegas Pro 13 (or maybe even DVD Architect Pro 6) properly convert the output, as I am aware that Blu-ray specs call for 1080i?

5) Or am I just barking up the wrong tree and should I stick with old-school 1080 60i (tried and true, but maybe not the best choice given the state of the art and the equipment being used?

Your help in straightening all of this out will be most appreciated, for I now am just looking in to the progressive world of video. I DO understand that by using progressive acquisition I WILL be able to obtain much cleaner frame grabs AND MUCH smooth slo-mo (but for an interview the latter is a moot point).

Thank you in advance.

Rich Kutnick
VIDEO IMPRESSIONS

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 3/12/2016, 1:28 PM

Start with a 30p project, the disable resampling on the 60p events.
Should work like a treat.

videoITguy wrote on 3/12/2016, 6:15 PM

Shooting 30p has really become more legend than factual analysis. There have been umpteen discussions about the handling of such matters in many NLE's including Vegas Pro.

So
1) CAMERA -Depends on what the camera actually shoots in native mode - most 30p is shot actually with 60i as the reference - so if your goal is DVD just stick with 60i in production.
2)NLE - different NLE's can respond differently into ingest - and most do nothing to elevate 30P as a full post-production flow. VegasPro however does readily use mixed-mode timelines.

3) Unless you are really going to deliver 30P frame - there is no need - see above.

PeterDuke wrote on 3/12/2016, 7:23 PM

What format(s) does/do your clients/viewers prefer? If there is a broad consensus, then shoot to suit that format. If there is no consensus, then there will be compromises that you cannot avoid.

The choice between 60i and 30p should be on the basis of how much motion you expect: more motion then use 60i, more static then use 30p. If your viewers can use 60p in say an MP4 file, then give them that.

Don't be afraid to experiment in advance and make up your own mind.

NickHope wrote on 3/12/2016, 11:12 PM

You should be aware, and probably already know, that there is a subtle difference between the looks of 30p and 60p/60i.

60p/60i looks better for sports, documentary, live broadcast etc. IMO. It's "smoother", more "real", more "live", more "video-like". So if that's your content, you'll lose that by going 30p.

On the other hand I absolutely hate the faster frame rates for fictitious movies (e.g. The Hobbit (48p), and any 24p movie that stupid TVs interpolate to 48p). It totally breaks the immersive experience for me.

(p.s. How stupid to have a stupid forum censor that censors the word "stupid")

Grazie wrote on 3/13/2016, 12:15 AM

It totally breaks the immersive experience for me.Not for those of another (meaning 2 below me now) generation, Nickster. Stuttery and jumpy footage means "real". For those whom I've overheard, smooth and cinematic means not of the "now" it is old and not dynamic. For them, I have to therefore surmise, means immersive, engaging and urgently-real. Whilst we go to great lengths removing and constraining our footage with at least the most minimalist use of a tripod, others will break this apart.

There was a time when sharp focus meant ALL the way. Now, if there ain't no thrown focus whether on or out of sync with the talent/speaker, then more's the better. Actually, there are purposefully dramatic places to use thrown focus off of the talent speaking, but that's NOT what I'm referring to.

Anyhoo . . . What "goes around comes around".

G

NickHope wrote on 3/13/2016, 4:02 AM

I hear you Grazie but we're talking about 2 entirely different things. I'm just talking about the frame rate.

PeterDuke wrote on 3/13/2016, 7:14 AM

They don't come much older than me, but the least juddery (highest frame rate) the better for me.

However, I admit that I never was nor ever will be a film buff.

I would love to watch Charlie Chaplin in widescreen (actually, not important for me really), colour, natural contrast and constant brightness as well as no film dust, scratches or sprocket jitter. If I had a vintage car, I would like it to look like it had just come out of the showroom. Carpet makers in the middle east say that well worn quality carpets increase in value as the wear increases, but they would not for me.

Also,I detest the over use of focus pulling. If the limitations of the hardware dictate that it is necessary then I will accept it.

Hand held cameras may have a place to represent say someone struggling to keep his footing as he tries to escape from some menace, but it should be used sparingly.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/13/2016, 8:50 AM

There shouldn't be a lot of discussion given to the delivery frame rate.
30p is universally deliverable and playable.
60i / 60p not so much.

john_dennis wrote on 3/13/2016, 12:06 PM

Mixing PARs and frame rates has been the bane of my existence, and seems to always involve compromises. It reminds me of stuffing Helium balloons into a duffle bag. There is one narrow path that you could follow if delivering progressive frame rates is the primary goal.

1280x720-59.94p is a legal PAR and frame rate for Blu-ray, though you'll have to create a custom template whether using either the Mainconcept or the Sony AVC Blu-ray encoder. Don't worry too much about that, I've created and posted many over the years. DVD Architect will accept 1280x720-59.94p elementary streams and pass them without re-encoding.

Your 30p sources will double smoothly into the 60p delivery frame rate. For the delivery methods where you might be limited to 30p, half of the 60p frames can be dropped as described above. 1920x1080 PAR will convert easily to 1280x720 PAR.

DVD is not the focus in this scenario.

Edit:

Blu-ray 1280x720-59.94p, 19.7 Mbps video stream

For Windows 7, place this template in:

C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Sony\Render Templates\mpeg2-mc

I set it to Two-Pass by default. This was created in Vegas Pro 9. You'll have to show hidden files to see files in this path.

Sony AVC 1280x720-59.94p-19.3 mbps.

Place it in C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Sony\Render Templates\avc-sony

videoITguy wrote on 3/13/2016, 2:13 PM

The OP in his first post, HOWEVER seemed to indicate his concern was Blu-ray at 1080i spec for the ultimate result...perhaps a DVD as a second level product flow - but also seemed to vacillate on the output direction really desired....

OldSmoke wrote on 3/13/2016, 2:30 PM

1) The NX5U does offer 720@60p and I would use it to match the AX33.
2) You can mix 30&60 on the timeline, no problem. However, getting the two cameras to look identical will be a bigger challenge but not impossible.
3) Project settings do not affect the final output aside from the deinterlace setting. You should keep that always as "interpolate". I would use a 720@60p project template.
4) For BluRay, output 1280x720 60p and DVDA will have no issue with it. Render audio separate as AC3.

In my opinion 60p has many advantages down the road as it converts easily to 30p by dropping alternate frames, to 60i for interlaced when necessary (DVD) and even 24p doesn't look that bad. Yes, it isn't 1920x1080 but believe me you will be hard pressed to see the difference.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/13/2016, 4:51 PM

I guess cross-deliverability is an issue for me.
Coming at it from various angles (BR player, home media center, web, PC, and all manner of portables, 5bn phones), the one format that's "almost" universally playable is 1280x720p 30. I would look to 60p catching up by the end of this decade, but many consumers who are already confronting the bandwidth bugabear probably won't upgrade.