"It doesn't seem like it would take much programming to make the Media Pool serve this function, especially since we now have subclips. All we'd need is the ability to slide events around in the Media Pool, then have them added to the timeline in sequence."

...AND that would *maybe* get me into using MediaPool at last...

Not a so bad idea this storyboard thingy. Up to now, I simply used timeline and shuffling to get through this issue.

But Media pool, ah... I still have to figure out how it can be in any help for me since I almost only use Explorer, Trimmer, Preview and Generated Media windows for all I've been editing so far.
I guess it's a personal workflow topic...

I just read some long posts in the DMN forums on the usual Premiere vs. Vegas debate. The one universal constant in these discussions is that people who are familiar with both ALWAYS use Premiere for straight cuts-only editing. If Sony wants to eliminate one of the major advantages of the competition, it should find a solution that would help with the storytelling function that Monica is not able to easily accomplish with Vegas.

Monica,

You might want to check out this post:

simulate a storyboard like Premier

This post was in response to the question:

Is there a way to manipulate the order of the clips in the Media Bin with Vegas 5.0 so as to simulate a storyboard like Premier? I found this feature very helpful with Adobe.

John,

As JohnyCamcorder said in this same thread, "Workarounds don't make a great NLE. "

It's the same bloody :storyboarding on timeline" as mentioned earlier.

I would say Vegas does need this functionality

Using the timeline is not always workable i.e 10 minute clip, followed by 20 sec, followed by xxxx over 30 minutes and try and use the timeline as a NLE storyboard, its pretty unworkable.

Better media pool would be the answer, I can sort by Take Start in the edit details but not in the media. Sorting by timecode does not include generated media, stills etc

Just adding sorting by timeline for the thumbnail view would take us a little of the way there

Paul

Rextilleon said in an other thread :

"The wishes of documentarians and feature film people should be heard. Look at it this way, for many, DV has replaced 16mm film format for documentary and low-budget film making. Most of us have little use for fx, sophisticated audio features, and compositing. "

I couldn't say it more eloquently. Editing is also that : simple editing, story construction. Editing is that for more than 100 years now. How may times should we repeat the most evident in order to be heard by Sony staff? Let us work in a practical way beyond all the bells and whistles that you offer to us. Why you neglect the storyboard function for 3 consecutive versions? Is that definitive? I have the right to know this as a customer, in order to stay with vegas or walk away.

Has media management any importance for you?

IMHO, Vegas looks today like a superb car with very powerful engine, and super audio system with 28 speakers and subwoofers, but with uncofortable seats and a mediocre steering wheel. How long someone will ride with such a car?

Storyboarding has my vote as well as nesting. I do like how Vegas is starting to do many of the things AE does. Hopefully they'll continue to develop in both areas making Vegas the all in one super tool!..

Marc

Is it so difficult to alow thumbnails to move around in the media pool or bin? I am asking just for this!!

If this is indeed all you are asking for, Sony might be smart to implement it... but then people would be screaming that their storyboard functionality is too limited or cheesy. I don't think it's as simple as you suggest. Everyone has a different idea of the best way to do something... Vegas is extremely flexible and most people can find a "workaround" for almost anything.

Now we have saved window layouts, sub clips, docking... are you sure you can't think of any way to make your storyboard? What about building it on an extra track and then muting it when you begin composing your actual project? You could use multiple tracks for multiple permutations of your storyboard. I know it's a pain when one clip is 2 minutes and the next one is 10 seconds... but story boards are just an out line... they don't have to be perfect do they?

That said, I hope you get your storyboard feature some day. And time line nesting. I've heard more about those two features in the last few days than my entire life.

Good ideas there cheesehole. Now how about some more so that we can compile it and see if it can be done via scripting.

Ed.

Btw...I know workarounds suck but in terms of scripting it takes the hasle away.

" How long someone will ride with such a car? "

.... for me, until the end of days. Gotta say I've done a documentary with only Vegas and didn't have any problems at all. The layout, timeline, and ease of use made it all pretty damn simple. If Premiere is so amazing, what are ya tinkering with a substandard car like Vegas for ? Every program has its nuances and limitations, as apparently Premiere must have had for you or you wouldn't be using Vegas. Why not just tell Adobe to pick up all the stuff you like about Vegas and then *poof*, you'll have your dream NLE with storyboarding.

"Why you neglect the storyboard function for 3 consecutive versions? Is that definitive? I have the right to know this as a customer, in order to stay with vegas or walk away." I just don't think you have a right to know why they haven't put in something that they never advertised or promised. Your right, if that was something you absolutely needed than you never should have bought it in the first place.

Maybe it would be a nice touch, a nice addition, but I'd beg ta differ that its a necessity.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

Hmm just an idea... you do have subclips and media bins, so you can actually sort all your event (as subclips) into sorted mediabins, that you can treat like storyboards.

The only remaining problem is that you can not easily change the order of the (sub)clips inside single bins. You can though rename them, and as soon as you leave and re-enter a bin (for some reason the order is not automatically updated every time), the events will be sorted alphabetically. If you then select them all and drag into the timeline, they will appear sorted there.

Of course that'd a tedious process - also but not only because you can't access the media renaming feature by a keyboard shortcut (or assign it to one), it is hidden in a popup-menu. But I can imagine it would not be too complicated to write a script that allows to automate adding prefixes to all media files and deal with renaming these prefixes under script control in a clever way to allow elementar reorder features, like "swap selected media with left one" or similar.

[Edit]
Sorry, don't think I can easily do this... it seems there's no access from scripts to the names media have inside mediabin, neither readable or writable :-(
[/Edit]

dust

PS: Several months ago I wrote a script called "ProxyEvents" that might be of help, though it would go under "timeline workarounds". I Didn't get much echo about it, probably it looked too complicated for most users :-) I would have to change a few things in order to make it work for V5, currently it is only V4, but that's no big deal. Check out http://www.triton.ch/dust/vegas/proxyEvents.html where there's a small walkthrough. The basic idea is to mark events in the timeline and - by script (=single keystroke) - they are all removed and replaced by a single, empty "proxy event" that now stands for all previously marked events "in-sequence". The actual events are moved into a new track that has the only purpose of "storing some events and there order", like a variable in a program. The empty proxy-events is just a placeholder for this whole "track" and internally linked to it. It can at any later moment be expanded again (="proxy-event" is replaced by the subtrack content). Also, you can reorder events in the proxy track, you can change the location of the placeholder-event itself (which actually replaces all events in the proxy track). Of course there can be as many proxy events as you like, and you can even nest proxy events. It is a bit like a hierarchical grouping mechanism (groups inside groups), except that all events inside a "group" are automatically aligned (=in sequence) when expanded, and that the whole "group" is represented as a single placeholder-event - which I think makes moving them around much easier. This is like using whole tracks as single events. This technique is sometimes used in text editors for writing code, where you can collapse/expand whole code sequences (like functions) to make things easier - like a divide-and-conquer strategy.

Dont Like Storyboards... Adds More Clutter... prefer Vegas Streamlined... If they did add Storyboards would like a Disable Button for it...I Like my Racing Car Uncomfortable I can feel the Bumps in the road...So I know the Road Condition And Drive Accordingly...

I like the storyboard idea also. I migrated from Pinnacle Studio. Now, there were a lot of things I didn't like or couldn't do with Studio (thus the switch to Vegas), but one area I did like was the storyboard screen. Studio allowed you to switch back and forth from storyboard and the timeline.

In Vegas, depending on how you have your timeline setup, you may have to scroll to the right many times to get to the scene you're looking for. With a storyboard, you would be able to see approximately 18-20 clips on one screen and be able to go to the one you want immediately, arrange/re-arrange the clips anyway you like, and then go to the timeline screen for further editing. It makes moving clips a lot easier.

I really like Vegas and am going to get the V5 upgrade, but this is one feature I wouldn't mind seeing in the future.

Many times when using Video wave AAaargh.. I would look at the story board clip Pics and forget whats in em.. End up having to re edit in order to Put in a Bit I had missed.. Much prefer to Edit everything On the timeline..Where Everything can be Accessed.. Cutting scenes then move further along the timeline and put in edited bits.. Swapping and changing as needed.. Building ONE sequence at a time..Works for me.. I was SO pleased to get away from Videowave... Glad I never even bothered with Pinnacle..

Vegas Has never had Storyboards and this suits me.. OF Course Others May want Vegas tailored to their Preferences.. PERSONALLY would not like to fire up Vegas to be confronted by the STORYBOARD Pool :)

SSo All I might ask Is If a future update added it Please could it be as a personal preference on the Menu :)

2929,

Your suggestion sounds good. Their could be a "button" on the toolbar that switches the view from storyboard to timeline and vice versa. Or put it in preferences, as you said.

Of course I would much rather see Other things Prioritised.. One thing (Among Others) That tops me list... Impractical... it may be ? Improvements to Real time viewing Perhaps Viewing FX and the timeline Edits. "REALTIME" On a Monitor... Perhaps an add on Like Avids Mojo... I would Pay Extra for this..Happily :)

<Studio allowed you to switch back and forth from storyboard and the timeline.>

It's a pity that a $69 application has a tool that vegas has not. So it's not expensive to implement it.

If you find it amateurish because it's in Studio, i will tell this : I downloaded Premiere Pro demo and I am full of envy for their elegant Storyboard window. I work several hours on it. I start to make a story from my client's 20-hour rushes and 250 photos. (you can see the first dropped icons at http://2.wine-photos.org/), I slide the thumbs around, let some space empty, maximised window, saved screen, and e-mailed to the client who is 500km away. He did some changes in photoshop (select-move) and sent me back a different continuity, I am working on it and so on.( I can also print the storyboard window and put it on my cardboard to think my story and protecting my eyes..).That's the perfect feedback for me. I s that amateur use?

The problem is that I hate the rest of premiere! I want to scrab on Vegas timeline, wich is second to none, make all corrections and tweakening in vegas and use also this premiere tool. I dont want to buy it for just one window use. I want to work within my beloved vegas. Do I ask a lot?

With this tool, vegas could have the best of two worlds.

I certainly would not Judge on Whether Storyboards are Amatuerish Or Not I suppose it all depends ON what you can do with One If it increases your Creativity Quickens your workflow HEY Im for it BUT If I opened Vegas and got even reminded a little Of Pinnacle or Premier I would feel major Misery..

You know what Storyboarding could be Good.... "Imagine" If your >Storyboard <could be Opened it in its own Playback window Cut the bit you want.... This CUT Clip is instantly opened for you on the Ordinary Timeline When you switch back... I kind of merging of Trimmer and Storyboard...

What a FANTASTIC Idea...

If it was so easy to implement -- without hurting things that already work -- it would probably be there already. You make very rash, very ignorant statements about how easy you believe adding features to a complex piece of software is.

<If I opened Vegas and got even reminded a little Of Pinnacle or Premier I would feel major Misery..

To not offense the purist of you, storyboard could be unchecked in default, like Vectorscopes. Just for some of us who think that cinema is editing is combination of images.

Monica You Dident like my Idea then ?

>You know what Storyboarding could be Good.... "Imagine" If your >Storyboard <could be Opened it in its own Playback window Cut the bit you want.... This CUT Clip is instantly opened for you on the Ordinary Timeline When you switch back... I kind of merging of Trimmer and Storyboard...<

This could be a way of keeping the timeline uncluttered And increasing Workflow speed..

Why is it that users think any new feature is trivial to code. If it were, then we would have done it. Really.

No feature is ever trivial or easy just because you imagine it as useful or can see how it would fit into the current GUI. Beyond defining every last detail of the feature, the feature must then be tested under any number of possible situations. The trick from the dev side is to make everything look and feel effortless. This is what we do. The downside is that users tend to think that everything is simple and easy to develope. Just not the reality of the task of development.

Just because some other app does it does not mean it was easy for them either.

As that cliche goes: "If it were easy, everybody would be doing it."

I am not arguing whether a story board is important or not : everbody has a different way of working.

Vegas is a long term vision. It is not standing still. We have to make hard choices and know that any given release will not make some people happy and may even force some to move to other solutions. There is no ideal way to release a solution that meets everybodies particular work flow, needs, or creative process. What is obvious to one group as a must have, is not for another group or class of users.

Perhaps by Vegas 10 everybody will be happy. I doubt it, as the technology and experiance of users changes constantly. We do work towards the goal of a complete solution, but the concept of "complete" is very subjective.

In the end, the user has to decide do our postives out-weigh our negatives. (Or do the postives of the other tools out-weigh their negatives.)

In this particular case:
Does not having storyboarding make Vegas a non-solution. For some it may and we may loose those users. We do have to look at the larger demands placed on our products. While any given feature may please some, we must look at the overal impact of any given feature on the Vegas community at large.

Peter