Think I may have lost another job ....

Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/12/2002, 1:31 AM
.... because I hadn't disabled the VV3 splash screen and got quizicle looks and furrowed brows when they saw Vegas VIDEO, qhich they then commented on. I think they thought I was some sort of cheap-skate trying to get by with inferior software, and they still didn't look convinced after my explanation.

How about (as well as the option to kill the splash screen) an alternative splash screen, saying Vegas AUDIO 4 in the next version - if not an actual *audio* version again .


stakeoutstudios wrote on 10/12/2002, 6:11 AM
I know this is a sore point, but I have to agree. I didn't even see Vegas 3.0 get a review in an audio magasine this time round in the UK, and I subscribe to quite a few.

Soundforge 6.0 however got a review (not being called video forge or anything)

Although I've not had a problem with many (dimwitted) clients, I feel that SF would simply sell a hell of a lot more copies of this amazing software if it was once again marketed towards an audio market.

It won't put ME off buying the others, but I have no doubt others will simply not even look at the product because of the name.

Read the waves 3.5 documentation for a laugh:

supported: Vegas Pro 3.0, Vegas Video 3.0

do they know something we don't?
Arnar wrote on 10/12/2002, 11:10 AM
Hear, Hear.....Im sitting here now waiting for two clients ....How will my Vegas Video excuse/explanation go??....this is ridiculous....hehe
pwppch wrote on 10/12/2002, 1:05 PM
Why not turn off the splash screen at start up?

JoeD wrote on 10/12/2002, 5:00 PM
oh my God. Ya have to laugh at this point.

How about SF hiring some experienced people for the helm of marketing?
Everyone is right. The whole campaign right down to the CHEESY name (vegas) is
right out.

Start marketing to the target audience SF. Place it in direct competition with the successfull products out there. Unless, super dooper vegas looper customers are the core target audience.
And get "video" out of there. My 2 yr old neice understands the why's on that.

Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/12/2002, 11:11 PM
> Why not turn off the splash screen at start up? Peter

And the main Window title bar ....



kilroy wrote on 10/12/2002, 11:26 PM

Just the other day I had an engineer who uses Pro Tools drop into our studio when I happened to be deep into a complex editing know, one of those straight from the pit of hell gigs where the panic level is totally over the top, guys are phoning every other minute wondering how it's coming along and stuff is a complete bloody balls of a mess. Total disarry, crapping logging, nothings labeled, files spread all over the freaking place on multiple discs, practically no notes, just some clueless moron who can't communicate diddly, but who is nevertheless groping awkwardly for suitable words to explain some intelligence behind this anarchy.

So this Pro Tools jock is gawking over my shoulder while I'm slashing away at this audio...dragging, fading, slipping, moving Xfades all about the place while the poor video guy in the next room is peeing his pants waiting for this edit to get done so he can lay it to the picture and perhaps make himself look good.

So there I am swearing away under my breath at whoever the bleeding mindless production super was who thought such a pile of crap could be edited up in what amounted to basically no time, and I am suddenly aware that this guy behind me has gone from an annoyingly constant banter to no noise at all. I look around and there he is with his jaw sagging open so far a bird could nest in it.

Why? Cuz he was flat out stunned at how quickly Vegas was eating up this edit. And why wouldn't he be?

Folks, this is one of the primary reasons I have this app. There is nothing out there anywhere that will give you the raw speed and smooth command execution that Vegas gives you. When things look like they are going down the pan in a big way you really need something that smokes. Believe me, utility is the *only* thing on your mind at such times. I regularily use other similar apps, and I will continue to use them because they have their own unique strengths. But when I have to work very, very quickly, and people are popping their corks, bursting blood vessels, and generally coming unglued all round me, I have come to totally depend on this SoFo app to get me through the gig.

I guess I can't relate to you dudes that are losing gigs because of the Vegas splash screen thing. I suppose some totally ignorant putz may walk out the door because he doesn't see Pro Tools pop up, but my personal experience has been that nobody that hires me gives a sweet rat's heiny what I use as long as a: I can get the job done, and b: I can get it done on time. Now if I was walking into another studio looking for a job then I would want to be up to speed on Pro Tools wouldn't I? I don't have to like it. But I better know it, because it's just like's everywhere.

If you guys are losing gigs cuz you don't have a Pro Tools rig then you need to stroll on down to your nearest Digi dealer and start dickering, cuz changing your Vegas splash screen to say anything *other* than "Pro Tools" is going to accomplish absolutely zeeero.

As for me, I fall reverently to my freaking knees in humble thankagiving every time Vegas obediently pops up on my sceen to once again keep the grey hairs at bay as I wade trembling into yet another lame ninth hour, cocked up, "save it or die" editing session.

God bless the devoted souls that coded this app, may they live long and prosper.
PipelineAudio wrote on 10/13/2002, 12:26 PM
kilroy, I agree with most of what you say, but just cause you dont have trouble with something doesnt mean everything's ok. If this doesnt concern you, stay out of it. I HAVE seen what this name has caused. I have seen the LACK of support I get from salsemen and manufacturers because it is a NON entity " why do we need to write good drivers for a video app ? "

I used to think it was silly too, but I can see the trouble its making.
stakeoutstudios wrote on 10/13/2002, 4:10 PM
I'm not ashamed of the app. I just think Vegas would do *better* if they put audio back in the name, and marketed it towards a pro audio market. Which they don't (at all in the UK it seems)

Sure I lose a few clients, but they're idiots. Pure and simple.

The issue I personally have, is not seeing this app given revies in magasines, or being even considered as an alternative in Pro audio advertisements.

This is the definition of poor marketing.

Give it a proper name, fillout the *few* features that will make it ultimately competetive, and show the world the apps true potential.

Sell a load of copies, and make a load of cash!

I'm convinced the name change is not the fault of the software engineers, but the next Vegas version should have substantially upgraded audio features.

Boast about it!

vanblah wrote on 10/13/2002, 7:27 PM
With some tinkering in the registry and using some FREEWARE tools you can make the splash screen say anything and the Windows title bar say anything you want.
JoeD wrote on 10/13/2002, 8:32 PM
It's not about the app...I choose it over cake, sx, PT (at times)...simply because it's solid (now) and has that famous UI.

The name (Vegas) is absolutely cheesed out the door. Something some 1st yr, avid, in-your-face christian, business major would come up with (NO balls or meaning whatsoever). Combine that with zero placement in the audio market (and even little in the video market) and it's NO WONDER nobody has heard of it.

Is Vegas3 a good app? Yeah, even better at audio than video I say...but ignoring features that are useful to the scope of this app is a major no no.
Split acid and vegas? Another shot to the foot (how many holes does this foot have?).

WHO ARE THE PERSONS IN CHARGE OF ALL THIS IDIOCY? String their a$$es up. Give them the boot. Whatever. Get some of that old SF competition back.

Thing is, we could have done without the $500.00 vegas 1 (??? why???) and $299.00 vegas 2.0 (when it first hit)...then dumping the user (let's leave out CDa users - SMART to finally bring that back...but after Vegas 3???).
That was LAME.
And don't tell me I'm an impatient customer...I've been there with SF since sf 3.0 on. Some of you mouthy newbies here were discovering your "special feelings" at that time.

I havn't budged one bit on all this since day one.
It all starts with the features (all of it to compete with the cakes and steins, digidesign) , then the marketing, then the work towards complete stability as SF is famous for.

This costs $ and risk, ya think SF will do it? Let's see.


edna6284 wrote on 10/16/2002, 4:22 PM
Fer goodness' sakes...if you're losing jobs because of the app, then I've got some news to break to you:

You suck. Your product sucks. Or you deal with clients in a way that makes them not want to deal with you.

When you face that reality, you'll realize that the application, as long as it allows you to get done what you want to get done, is irrelevant.
PipelineAudio wrote on 10/16/2002, 5:01 PM
you are WAY off recognition in this bizz can be as bad as any other. I saw a VERY expensive christmas special, get scrapped at the mastering lab. The distributor was cutting the check to the lab, after ok'ing everything. He then asked for the PT project hard disks. The engineer had actually only used tape, no computers. The distibutor was horrified, and scrapped the project, AFTER he already heard and Ok'd everything.
You wont have to look hard to find these types of stories either.

Especially for new customers it IS a problem. Repeat and word of mouth clients trust you enough to bother caring what format you may be on.

"you'll realize that the application, as long as it allows you to get done what you want to get done, is irrelevant"

thats how it SHOULD be, but it isn't. The artist should only care that they get a good product in the end, but many times they believe if there isnt a certain piece of hardware or software, then that goal is impossible. If this issue HASNT shown up in any form for you, then you arent getting enough traffic thru your studio.

This isnt anything new. I remember when digital recorders were really taking off, there was this same sort of thing. If you didnt have a Mitsu X-850, you were in trouble, nevermind that the first gen of those sounded like crap compared to the 2" machines they were designed to replace.
Sari wrote on 10/16/2002, 8:21 PM

I usually stay away from discussions like these but I have to tell you what I think.

If a client loves the final outcome of my work and then asks me to buy a new software to do my work, I would probably ask him either to pay for it or never to come back.

I think a good producer, musician, engineer, etc.. should only be measured by the quality of their work.

We do record, film, TV and ad music. We billed slightly over a million dollars in the last 18 months. We only use Vegas. We sold our PT a long time ago. 90% of our clients are repeat clients and word of mouth.
PipelineAudio wrote on 10/16/2002, 9:23 PM
"I think a good producer, musician, engineer, etc.. should only be measured by the quality of their work"

me too, but just cuz we wish something doesnt make it so

"We do record, film, TV and ad music. We billed slightly over a million dollars in the last 18 months. We only use Vegas. We sold our PT a long time ago. 90% of our clients are repeat clients and word of mouth.

EXACTLY what I said:

"Repeat and word of mouth clients trust you enough to bother caring what format you may be on.

in case you missed it

A higher profile for vegas wouldnt hurt anyone. You guys act like Im trying to pull out your teeth or something. Its up to us to spread the word, wherever we can. I think I do my fair share of it, on other forums, and in front of customers' faces.
edna6284 wrote on 10/17/2002, 9:34 AM
Okay, I was being a little blunt. I just think it's time to drop this feeble "The name of the app is killing my business!" argument. It's crap, and anyone who thinks that should be looking at the REAL reasons why their telephone has stopped ringing. It's a cop-out, because if it's because of the app then you'd better get Pro Tools because that's the only name player on the block.

So what I'm saying, which agrees with Sari's assessment, is that the client is using the app as an EXCUSE to get out. Sari has found that trust and good client relationships brings in repeat business and new business when their clients talk to others.

Now tell me what business ISN'T built in this manner?!

I'll say it again: If your client walks when they see VV, they don't trust you. Which means you haven't earned their trust yet, baby.

I just did some TV spots using Flash as the animation tool. Until very recently Flash was considered a joke in TV, and nothing's fundamentally changed about Flash to make it somehow more 'valid' (all the actionscripting stuff is useless when producing for TV, since movie clips can't be used). What HAS changed are people's perceptions of what can be done with the app.

Do good work and that client will hear about it and come back a year from now, all smiles, regardless of what computer or app you're using.

Cheers DE

drbam wrote on 10/17/2002, 10:05 AM
<<Do good work and that client will hear about it and come back a year from now, all smiles, regardless of what computer or app you're using.>>

True. And I don't think this perspective (reality) should try to discount the other side of this discussion, because frankly it can't. Both pespectives are valid in my opinion. For example, why would the most popular, most expensive, very much in demand studios, who offer every conceivable piece of high end gear, award winning engineers, also find it important (necessary) to advertise what equipment they use? Obviously clients trust these top level studios and the engineers to produce a great product for them. . . AND . . . the clients also want to know what equipment they will be using to do it. And its not just out of curiosity. Its all part of the psychological dynamic involved in any form of sales, marketing and purchasing and this dynamic is ALWAYS in process. Its simply naive ignore this.

I will continue to use Vegas because I love the way it works and they've given me great support. . . period. And I personally think that SOFO made a huge blunder with the name and the marketing which ultimately has compromised Vegas (and perhaps SOFO in general) in the audio market. Like others I feel disappointed in that. Oh well. . .

PipelineAudio wrote on 10/17/2002, 11:22 AM
lots of times a NEW client will call and the VERY first thing they ask is " you got pro tools? "

it IS rather odd that clients dictate formats isnt it ? They oughtta worry about playing their parts right instead
MyST wrote on 10/17/2002, 11:33 AM
The music business isn't the only place this happens.
Working with SoFo apps isn't my day job, EDM(Electrical Discharge Machining)is. And this happens here also. Sometimes a potential customer calls up to ask what machine you have to do the work. If you don't have an "Agie",well... Nevermind asking for references of jobs I've done.
The BIG difference is, for me to buy an Agie would cost +/- $200,000.00.
You can always buy a copy of PT and load it on a P3 in the corner. When the customer sees you using Vegas, you can tell him you feel less limited with Vegas, and proceed to show him why.

edna6284 wrote on 10/17/2002, 12:43 PM
By that logic, renaming VV to VA and a marketing campaign won't do a thing for these clients. The only fix is to go to PT.

Even in video production, Vegas isn't known or accepted. I was dropping off some stuff to be put on BetaSP and their general attitude was "Vegas is alright, but we use Adobe Premiere because it's professional".

So the question remains, why aren't you on PT? You do know that SF will never be "good enough" for these clients, don't you? And knowing that, there's no reason to go on forums and complain about it (not that you were). We've all made our choice; now we gotta live with it.

MyST wrote on 10/17/2002, 12:58 PM
"By that logic, renaming VV to VA and a marketing campaign won't do a thing for these clients."


"The only fix is to go to PT."

False. The only fix is to accept that you will lose narrow-minded clients.
If Vegas works best for you, it'll show in your work, and the broad-minded clients will see that, and return.
Besides, I'm not so sure I would want clients who specify what "tool" I should use. They would probably be putting in their 2 cents in other aspects of the job also.

stakeoutstudios wrote on 10/17/2002, 1:09 PM
well, clients keep coming back, can't complain about that!

however... vegas would sell a lot better, if they advertised it correctly as a Pro Audio application.

and, yes you do lose a few of the narrowminded idiots. but very few.
edna6284 wrote on 10/17/2002, 1:09 PM
Good point, MyST...and I completely agree with sticking with VV and the clients that don't like it can go elsewhere. It's none of their business what software I use. What is their business is how the finished product turns out. Cheers, DE
nlamartina wrote on 10/17/2002, 1:34 PM
Okay, let's have a little fun with this then. Everyone responds:

What would prefer Vegas be called? (Any answer is valid. Doesn't even have to have "Vegas" in it).

The reason I ask this: Since I'm going to be bored during Fall break starting this weekend, I'm thinking about designing an alternate splash screen for Vegas. I'd be doing the programming, and my brother, who's an excellent graphic artist, would design the logo (he owes me favors). Basically it'd function with a simple batch file that would simulataneously start Vegas and the false splash screen. The splash program would simply display the logo and go away after a certain period of time or when you would press a key (naturally, you'd have to disable Vegas' splash screen so the two don't appear at once). Sound good?

Seriously, give this some thought, cuz I think this will be fun. Who has a suggestion for a name?

- Nick
PipelineAudio wrote on 10/17/2002, 1:41 PM
half of me says call it " toy hunk of crap for soundblaster " so that if someone gets a grammy or something theyll have to say " I'd Like to really thank the guys for making toy hunk of crap for soundblaster"

but that could hurt marketing

I like the name " Vegas ". But maybe something added to it that makes it sound like the center, that everything goes into and out of. Kinda like las vegas itself.