Here we go again, just give it a rest, move on.

Move your own paradigm.

Already been there and back, as I'm writing this i'm doing a review of VP26, really wonderful, i'd like to share but don’t want to spoil the fun. The Magix forum has changed somewhat, they got rid of most of the moderators, especially the ones that couldn’t stay focused on Magix core values, and just drifted off with their own agendas etc. Nick and a few others are still here, he's still writing up lists. Anyway, back to the present, i'm tired of this, if you have anything more to say here in this thread on your beloved HDR, I promise not to respond to you, you have the floor, so fire away, canons blazing, in true HDR technicolour.

Honestly, the performance of this software is a much bigger deal than HDR. That can wait another year. But VEGAS Pro simply isn't even on the same level of Video Pro X, much less Premiere Pro CC or Resolve (on high end systems) when it comes to performance and scalability with hardware. That's a much bigger deal than HDR, to me.

I would hope 75% of their work is going towards revamping the base of the product to perform better and better support (and scale) on modern hardware; than gushing over stuff like HDR, which other tools do so well that we cannot expect them to rival them. It's not like VEGAS is going to make a huge splash in editorial any time soon, anyways. They lost that chance a long time ago, IMHO.

Right now, running VEGAS on a PC feels like a hardware downgrade compared to running Premiere Pro and Resolve on the same hardware, because Premiere Pro and Resolve is so much better at utilizing hardware resources.

I tried a trial of Video Pro X on my current PC and the performance blew VEGAS Pro out of the water. It was complete night and day.

At this point, they need to be going for switchers, unless they're totally content living with the niche they have.

There are too many competing, low[er]-cost, pro-level solutions out there. People aren't going to be paying for products that are unnecessary or completely outclassed by cheaper/free alternatives with [arguably] better reputations.

Those $20 Humble Bundle sales (and the upgrades it provides you with) can only do so much. Many of those people won't upgrade, and are only using VP14 until they get a better PC... at which point they will switch to something like Resolve or Premiere Pro CC.

I also find it odd how people here gush over buzzwords, but disregard the utter lack of basic features and workflow tools in this software... like a proper Transcode module... Something that is a fairly basic expected feature in any Pro NLE (and provided by most Consumer Level NLEs in the $80-100 range, in fact). Or is using a Batch Render script for 20+ clips after marking regions really what the developers think this should be like?

Lastly, I do think Video Pro X is a problem - particularly for prospective buyers. It shows up first under the Video Tab at Magix.com, and I've tried a trial. It felt like Final Cut Pro X for PCs. The performance was that amazing on my system. Wish most people interested in Vegas Pro ignore that product when looking on the website, otherwise it will be hard to convince them that VEGAS is worth the purchase if they try both of them (at this point in time).

@Trensharo

Disagree. Vegas is in a good place as an NLE, and is getting better all the time. For me, it's productive, stable and editing is quick. Every time I look at other NLE's I come back with: no way that's going to work for me.

Well I switched from Premier many years ago because it was not intuitive and Vegas was about 5 times faster. Vegas also used colorized icons which helped me ten fold. And at the time Vegas would import most of the available files.

JJK

I can also say one other thing we have learned about it... built in motion tracking, especially if it is a good planar tracker like Mocha, is going to benefit me immensely, as I do CG animation and video projection mapping.

Unfortunately BorisFX who own Mocha now was asked about a basic version of Mocha Pro being released with future Vegas Pro versions & they said they had no plans to do so. I suppose the BCC Match Move tracker plugin will be the most likely then. Very basic, not a planar tracker, but it's an upgrade from no tracker at all

Honestly, the performance of this software is a much bigger deal than HDR. That can wait another year. But VEGAS Pro simply isn't even on the same level of Video Pro X, much less Premiere Pro CC or Resolve (on high end systems) when it comes to performance and scalability with hardware. That's a much bigger deal than HDR, to me.

I would hope 75% of their work is going towards revamping the base of the product to perform better and better support (and scale) on modern hardware; than gushing over stuff like HDR, which other tools do so well that we cannot expect them to rival them. It's not like VEGAS is going to make a huge splash in editorial any time soon, anyways. They lost that chance a long time ago, IMHO.

Right now, running VEGAS on a PC feels like a hardware downgrade compared to running Premiere Pro and Resolve on the same hardware, because Premiere Pro and Resolve is so much better at utilizing hardware resources.

I tried a trial of Video Pro X on my current PC and the performance blew VEGAS Pro out of the water. It was complete night and day.

At this point, they need to be going for switchers, unless they're totally content living with the niche they have.

There are too many competing, low[er]-cost, pro-level solutions out there. People aren't going to be paying for products that are unnecessary or completely outclassed by cheaper/free alternatives with [arguably] better reputations.

Those $20 Humble Bundle sales (and the upgrades it provides you with) can only do so much. Many of those people won't upgrade, and are only using VP14 until they get a better PC... at which point they will switch to something like Resolve or Premiere Pro CC.

I also find it odd how people here gush over buzzwords, but disregard the utter lack of basic features and workflow tools in this software... like a proper Transcode module... Something that is a fairly basic expected feature in any Pro NLE (and provided by most Consumer Level NLEs in the $80-100 range, in fact). Or is using a Batch Render script for 20+ clips after marking regions really what the developers think this should be like?

Lastly, I do think Video Pro X is a problem - particularly for prospective buyers. It shows up first under the Video Tab at Magix.com, and I've tried a trial. It felt like Final Cut Pro X for PCs. The performance was that amazing on my system. Wish most people interested in Vegas Pro ignore that product when looking on the website, otherwise it will be hard to convince them that VEGAS is worth the purchase if they try both of them (at this point in time).

you said performance is night and day means? does it cut the time in half? or more

Video pro X from Magix is a fine product, I still have it on my PC albeit I stopped renewing the annual upgrade fee some while ago, so I am stuck with an older version. I still monitor on the forum the Magix pro X patches and evolution (they introduce about 2x a year new features), and I see they introduced very recently in May 2018 (If not mistaken) an update that added, guess what NVEC HW support (for HEVC)! Something also Vegas has introduced in the last patch recently as well... So maybe Magix stroke a deal with Nvidea to introduce this in both products... I am only speculating here, but if you want to see what is in pipeline feature wise for Vegas 16, maybe look what they offer now in their own competing sister product Video Pro X. Maybe the Feature set roadmap is dictated by the German masters now...      
The link below has some comments I made some time back in 2017, so it may be a bit outdated, but one thing is still true as I can fish out on the recent forum comments on Magix Pro X, that it still cannot move the order of effects applied to them like you can in Vegas, and Vegas is still king in OFX support (albeit Pro X has made progress since the past).

http://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-or-magix-video-pro-x--105944/#ca655877
 

bob-h, why in the wold would Boris make a basic version of Mocha Pro to be released with future Vegas Pro versions? BorisFX already has an excellent Mocha Pro plugin dedicated to Vegas Pro that has great integration, with continuous updates and development..... What more would anyone crave for?, the tool is already provided!

I think what bob-h is referring to is the info from Magix saying that Vegas 16 will have a tracker. The hope would be that it will be a "really good" tracker (whatever that means) and of course included = free.

To use HDR in Vegas could be done by using the 32bit floating point mode very likely - since we have implemented by now ACES1 in Vegas. But the performance of ACES needs some performance improvements anyway. So both may be required.

To use HDR the color tools also have to be capable of reading Nit levels on the scopes, up to 10,000 nits, and also up to 1024 levels, or we'll be grading by eye only.

What are you guys using/recommending as a grading monitor setup for HDR in Vegas?

I bought a BlackMagic Mini Monitor 4K, and I use that to connect to my LG 50'' OLED TV (2017 series, fantastic displays!). The card can pass through HDR signals to the TV, and (at least with Resolve) when I connect to the TV, the HDR logo appears on screen, and I can then go on to grade in 10 bit. I'm hoping Vegas works out the same way. As far as I know, only the Quattro cards from Nvidia (not sure what AMD's equivalent is, or if they have the same limitations) output 10 bit any other way, so the mini monitor 4K is the cheapest option to get true 10 bit previews.

That said, the BM MM4k card currently does not work with Vegas at all, so that is another thing I'm hoping to see change with 16. My decklink 4k card does, but AFAIK it doesn't work with HDR metadata passthrough.

As for smaller monitors, I'd go with a pro-grade monitor unless it is an OLED display. Those you can usually count on reproducing accurate colors and blacks/whites.

Honestly, the performance of this software is a much bigger deal than HDR. That can wait another year. But VEGAS Pro simply isn't even on the same level of Video Pro X, much less Premiere Pro CC or Resolve (on high end systems) when it comes to performance and scalability with hardware. That's a much bigger deal than HDR, to me.

I would hope 75% of their work is going towards revamping the base of the product to perform better and better support (and scale) on modern hardware; than gushing over stuff like HDR, which other tools do so well that we cannot expect them to rival them. It's not like VEGAS is going to make a huge splash in editorial any time soon, anyways. They lost that chance a long time ago, IMHO.

Right now, running VEGAS on a PC feels like a hardware downgrade compared to running Premiere Pro and Resolve on the same hardware, because Premiere Pro and Resolve is so much better at utilizing hardware resources.

I tried a trial of Video Pro X on my current PC and the performance blew VEGAS Pro out of the water. It was complete night and day.

At this point, they need to be going for switchers, unless they're totally content living with the niche they have.

There are too many competing, low[er]-cost, pro-level solutions out there. People aren't going to be paying for products that are unnecessary or completely outclassed by cheaper/free alternatives with [arguably] better reputations.

Those $20 Humble Bundle sales (and the upgrades it provides you with) can only do so much. Many of those people won't upgrade, and are only using VP14 until they get a better PC... at which point they will switch to something like Resolve or Premiere Pro CC.

I also find it odd how people here gush over buzzwords, but disregard the utter lack of basic features and workflow tools in this software... like a proper Transcode module... Something that is a fairly basic expected feature in any Pro NLE (and provided by most Consumer Level NLEs in the $80-100 range, in fact). Or is using a Batch Render script for 20+ clips after marking regions really what the developers think this should be like?

Lastly, I do think Video Pro X is a problem - particularly for prospective buyers. It shows up first under the Video Tab at Magix.com, and I've tried a trial. It felt like Final Cut Pro X for PCs. The performance was that amazing on my system. Wish most people interested in Vegas Pro ignore that product when looking on the website, otherwise it will be hard to convince them that VEGAS is worth the purchase if they try both of them (at this point in time).

you said performance is night and day means? does it cut the time in half? or more

It's a common English expression/colloquialism, meaning it's considerably better.

To the people above. I stand by what I stated. I see no reason not to simply round trip to Resolve for color grading. It scales amazingly with my hardware, and performs well. If you care that much about color that you will debate about it, then you're probably better off just going to Resolve for it, anyways. VEGAS isn't going to get as good as it, and certainly not better than it at doing that.

What I'd like, is to not feel like I should be doing EVERYTHING in Resolve because it the NLE performs so much better than VEGAS, and has innovated/integrated itself beyond VEGAS in so many ways... every time I round trip to it... "for coloring"... … ...

As I've stated earlier... The alternatives are improving, at a fairly robust pace. At what point does it become unworthy even using VEGAS Pro at all, instead of just sitting in Resolve or the Adobe ecosystem?

There's a difference between personally preferring a product, and stubbornly sticking to it (even when it is an inoptimal solution).

@Trensharo

Disagree. Vegas is in a good place as an NLE, and is getting better all the time. For me, it's productive, stable and editing is quick. Every time I look at other NLE's I come back with: no way that's going to work for me.

Proven by Sony selling it off to MAGIX, after developing Catalyst Suite and barely developing it over the past 5-8 years?

So stable you have to disable components of the software so it can work properly with certain file formats it purports to support... So stable, that people often upgrade so that it hopefully crashes less; even though the upgrades were little more than a service pack.

Convincing argument, there, friend.

The software does have selling points, but they simply aren't huge selling points. Most of VEGAS' traditional selling points have been matched or exceeded by the competition. This happens when you have molasses development pace, and the competition is iterating at a rapid pace.

While Sony was standing still, the industry was sprinting ahead.

Editing in most NLEs is quick. Learn the keyboard shortcuts ;-)

Becoming better than terrible is a lot easier than becoming better than great.

The competition is improving, as well. Context is everything.

Trensharo, what's your point being so defensive?.... OK, You dont like Vegas because of its many shortcomings, fine. You prefer Resolve and Adobe suite because they are better, Then stick to them then in your workflow.

As for me and many others, its not even a personally preferring issue or a stubbornly sticking to issue as you so put it, its simply i do everything in Vegas BETTER, FASTER and more EFFICIENT on so many levels too numerous to mention here!

+1. Exactly. it's not a matter of stubbornness or sentimentality. I am quite happy to look at other software to see what they offer, and recently installed the Resolve 15 beta to take a look. It has some interesting features, but they are not necessary or particularly useful for me. Same with Premiere, etc. In fact mostly I just look for ideas to improve my workflow within Vegas and have suggested some of those on this forum.

What is the point of coming to a user forum simply to tear down that software? Seems like negativity for its own sake, and not a particularly healthy activity.

I am going to wax philosophically. Vegas has been treated by Sony as a bastard stepchild.

It is an odd configuration from the beginning, an audio program that adapted to Video. For people that came from audio, and wanted to do music videos and such, it is brilliant in conception, and should be seen as such by its support company, now Magix, itself a brilliant audio producer.

It does need a ground up reconfiguration to keep it really current, it sort of hobbles along, and I think the developers are afraid to ask for the muscle ($$) they need to really get this cooking. It's not the program as such that is stellar, it is the fundamental concept, the WYSIWYG just do things right on the timeline, but they have NOT maxed it out and it is still clunkier in the GUI than it needs to be. They need a few music video producers to workshop with the developers and add a bit more smoothness to some routines (really, they should just COPY Magix's own SAMPLITUDE GUI ROUTINES).

This is NOT a knock, but an encouragement to go beyond the four walls Vegas developers have been looking at for the last 15 years or so, they've become myopic. I know it is difficult in video, because of all the formats, codecs, and I get that. But they have the absolute best concept going, but it needs a bit of fresh rethinking WITHOUT changing the basics. Don't worry long time users...but.... Hamburger menus ain't it. 'button selection choice ain't it. Those are more head scratchers then real progress.

Now I'm going to wax practically:

Let me give you a GUI example from Magix's Samplitude, just to give you the idea what I'm talking about:

You want to solo an event or events. NOT TRACKS, selected events only.

Select one, or any several - on any tracks - can be non contiguous. You can lasso select without changing mouse mode as well - this all happens in one half second, I promise you.

YOU hold Control and hit spacebar and the event(s) you've just selected will solo.

If you've put the cursor in the middle of some selected event it will play from there, if the cursor is anywhere else on the timeline, it will immediately jump to the left edge of the further most left selected event and play, None of this relying on the track solo button, (has zero to do with tracks - a muted event on a muted track WILL SOLO) you can move through your timeline very quickly and see what you've got, and - again - it will solo multiple events on different tracks, so you can quickly see two events, for example, one on track one and the other track two, really nice if you're compositing a lot of tracks. Just so fast.

You could also add more events to solo along with the others IN REAL TIME after you've started monitoring...almost never a need to stop Samplitude do do something else, it just keeps playing till you say NO..

Since Vegas is already set up LIKE an audio editor this sort of business should be easily adapted. And there are many more easy as pie sort of things that could really get Vegas into a souped up machine.

How does VEGAS GUI behave??? pretty bad, If i want to set up a mouse scroll vertically I can do it as long as my mouse is over the timeline proper, but if it slips over to the track list on the left, it changes behavior, and that sort of thing drives me up the friggin wall...I like to move around because I do a lot of compositing and I like to check things and different combinations of things to see where problems lie, how one track is effecting the other, and Vegas does it but like an old Model-T sometimes.

What are you guys using/recommending as a grading monitor setup for HDR in Vegas?

Decklink 4K Extrem 12G, Atomos Sumo as Control Monitor. I use that for both Edius9 but also Resolve, and for sure for Vegas.

The most important part is the control monitor, where you have the Waveform with a nit scale but can adjust also the Gamut and gamma curve. Do NOT go for HDR playing monitors that support PQ only. Do not use GPUs yet (maybe in future).

What will be the supported hardware for an upcoming Vegas HDR Version is unknown yet. So wait with the purchase of new hardware if you can.

Trensharo, what's your point being so defensive?.... OK, You dont like Vegas because of its many shortcomings, fine. You prefer Resolve and Adobe suite because they are better, Then stick to them then in your workflow.

As for me and many others, its not even a personally preferring issue or a stubbornly sticking to issue as you so put it, its simply i do everything in Vegas BETTER, FASTER and more EFFICIENT on so many levels too numerous to mention here!

I'm unsure how you can ask me how I'm being so defensive, given the content of this reply...

Also, I'm replying to other people. Context is everything.

It's not a matter of thinking Resolve and Adobe Suite is better, it's a matter of recognizing that the competition is ahead by a decent clip and signaling to the developers where they need to improve.

Most people editing video aren't doing it on a cheap Ultrabook with Intel Graphics.

If they only want to target the High Consumer/Prosumer crowd, then they should make that clear so that users can make better decisions on the product[s] they want to use and support moving forwards.

I'm not defensive. I'm just brutally honest. I'm sorry if that hurts your sensibilities due to your software patriotism. Defensiveness is not needed, because there are too many choices and I can simply use a different product. VEGAS Pro isn't the Microsoft Office of the NLE market...

I don't spend $3-800 based on how good Steve_Rhoden says a product is ;-)

Don't tell me I'm being "defensive" and go on to defensively disagree because your "opinion/observation" differs from mine. That's a bit oxymoronic.

I'm more interested in the technicalities of what you observe/base your opinions on, as anyone can say the same thing; borne out of a lack of experience working with other products on the market. How and Why are important questions to answer, in these cases.

Replies on forums aren't emotions. They're blocks of text. If you want to get the point, read them.

Trensharo, what's your point being so defensive?.... OK, You dont like Vegas because of its many shortcomings, fine. You prefer Resolve and Adobe suite because they are better, Then stick to them then in your workflow.

As for me and many others, its not even a personally preferring issue or a stubbornly sticking to issue as you so put it, its simply i do everything in Vegas BETTER, FASTER and more EFFICIENT on so many levels too numerous to mention here!

I'm unsure how you can ask me how I'm being so defensive, given the content of this reply...

Also, I'm replying to other people. Context is everything.

It's not a matter of thinking Resolve and Adobe Suite is better, it's a matter of recognizing that the competition is ahead by a decent clip and signaling to the developers where they need to improve.

Yes, Trensharo well, how YOU'D WANT THEM TO IMPROVE....because, and I say this respectfully, there are many avenues they can pursue, so we can lobby for our particular sets of "improvements" - not that "they need to do" but what we would like them to do....One does have choices in the marketplace. We'd all hope that Vegas become a more "one shop stop." Until then.......

I have been frustrated over the years with Vegas. I also recognize I would not want the job of constructing a PC world product in an age of so many codecs and formats and hardware choices. So, I believe that they are doing a yeoman's job and I want to continue to encourage them to keep going and then, from there, you and I can lobby for what we believe would best help the customer and the product line itself, one hand washes the other.

There is a sense of lack of appreciation on your part, and yes, that may indeed trigger an emotional response - but let's face it, Vegas is probably the most ripped off software out there, and it has not had exactly great support from Sony over the years, AFAICT, so it does need now a bit of a refresher and let's keep encouraging the development team, whining won't get anyone anywhere.......not that that is what is going on, not saying that, but if not, it comes close.