. .eh? And the point you are making Bob, is? - g

"And the point you are making Bob, is?"

Geez, I thought I was being pretty specific.

1) I unpack my new HC5 or EX1 Sony camera. Drop in a tape / SXS card, point the camera at something, hit record and have a look at the footage. Not bad, yeah OK, I could do some research and a lot of hard work and maybe get a bit more out of it. Still the designers have gone to a bit of trouble to give the user the best possible Out Of The Box Experience.

2) I install Windows, it asks me lots of questions, where do I live, what language do I speak, what is my name. It uses that to setup itself, correct date format , currency and daylight saving etc. Other apps also use this to load the most likely dictionaries into a word processor etc, etc. Again the programmers went to some trouble to enhance the out that out of the box experience.

3) I install Ppro and then the Black Magic drivers. Go to start a new project and I now have templates specific to working with footage from the BMD card. Nice touch.

4) I recommend Vegas to someone and tell them to download a trial copy. Sony are now including a trial copy of VMS with their consummer cameras lately down here. Now what happens is they start editing PAL on a NTSC timeline, yes two people who've bought Vegas on my recommendation have made this simple mistake. How hard is it for a piece of software to workout from where you live which video standard you are most likely to be working with. Not hard at all I'd wager, even this website knows where I live from my I.P. address!

Compare experience 1,2 and 3 to 4. You see an issue?

Some may think this is trivial but it's not, not outside these hallowed walls.

Another example:

Some years back their was an exhaustive review of the quality of all the audio applications, how well their mixing and resampling algorithms performed. Vegas was way, way down the list in quality. I finally tweaked to what was wrong. Vegas does a pretty bad job of resampling unless you change the default quality to Best. I'd wager very few Vegas users even know that setting is there, let alone someone doing extensive tests for a review. Again, simple to fix.

Getting back to video and another comparative example.
I start a 24p project in Ppro and drop 25p footage onto the T/L.
Up pops a warning message telling me this might not be what I intended, maybe my project settings are wrong or if I really want to do this Yes, it'll get done but the result will not be as good as it could be. Another example of machine serving man. And just for the record I really do NOT like editing in Ppro but that's not to say it hasn't got some good ideas.

So in summary the point I'm making is the Out Of The Box Experience is important and more should be done by SCS to improve that experience. The product is getting an unjustified bad wrap because not enough attention is given to it.

I'd also repeat what Terje has said. People today are creating content for the web. Why doesn't Vegas ship with templates for the popular web sites. Doing so would again enhance that out of the box experience.

Bob.

I'm glad I asked - I would never have known just exactly what you were considering.

"So in summary the point I'm making is the OK! Now I know!

"The product is getting an unjustified bad wrap because not enough attention is given to it." OK!

"I'd also repeat what Terje has said. People today are creating content for the web. Why doesn't Vegas ship with templates for the popular web sites." Why do you think this is the case? Don't the more cut-down versions of Vegas have this? Dunno . . ?

"Doing so would again enhance that out of the box experience."Why or HOW should SONY Vegas engineers concern/worry about this?

Thanks for that Bob. You clarified your previous statement for me.

Grazie

"Don't the more cut-down versions of Vegas have this?"

I think you're correct.

"Why or HOW should SONY Vegas engineers concern/worry about this?"

HOW? Add a template for it. If you're right about VMS having this then it cannot be hard.

WHY? Because despite the existance of VMS a lot of entry level people buy into Vegas. Why make it easy for them to get it wrong.

This is how I read it goes.
New guy puts something 'out there'. He falls into one of the Vegas traps. He doesn't really see what's wrong, maybe he doesn't know any better as he's not used to critically looking at vision.
Someone says to him on Youtube etc :
"Hey mate, that looks really bad, what did you do that with?"
"Or jeez, I dunno wtf is wrong, I bin oozin Vegus"
" No wonder mate, you should try using a pro app like ....."

As someone once said "reputation are built over years and destroyed in seconds"

Bob.

I love this same discussion every time a new version comes out ..
In reality I LOVE waiting for and hearing the reviews of a new version.

I spend lots of time reading up until the day before the super cheap upgrade offer is about to expire and then I decide. I am a very much hobbyist - but do enjoy playing with these new features. And hearing people talk about them. I love seeing Spot's video review that he gets out the day the product is released - it is a fun time ..
Some times it is worth it for me sometimes it is not - sometimes it isn't but I like playing with something new and cool. Ironically - I think the best feature I got in 7 was how the clips change colors when the timelines match

I did NOT get version 8 - and am not sure I regret it - except in terms of processing data from my Canon hf10. So even if not great reviews I will probably get 9

So I DO hope there is a New version just because I so much enjoy the excitement.

So here's hoping to Vegas 9 - and the $99 upgrade option.
Of course what may happen is I will get it and THEN need to buy a quad-core and bluRay burner .. so it may get expensive ..

""Hey mate, that looks really bad, what did you do that with?"

Fact 1:
There are people in this world that can't tie their shoes properly and will always blame it on the shoe company.

Fact 2:
No matter how hard a shoe company tries... they will NEVER be able to change Fact 1

I would rather NOT see Vegas pro cheapened with youtube templates and other VMS enticements like its cheesy transitions. You want Youtube then go buy Pinnacle Studio or Ulead VS. In fact, if you can't figure out the difference between NTSC and PAL then maybe Pinnacle Studio IS better suited for you.

Avid just put out a 14 day trial period for MC.... try hard as you can to operate that "out of the box". The truth of the matter is that a novice CAN muddle their way through an edit session with Vegas Pro. But something like MC..... good luck with that in the 14 days they give you. I'll wager that most will take the entire 14 days just to get the program to flash up on the screen.

blink: Rendering fixed?? What's wrong with it?

Some times I wonder if you are willfully obtuse or you are just a little slow and proud of it. You might have noticed that I quoted a posting. That usually means that I am responding to that particular post. In the post that I quoted, and that you could reasonably have assumed that I responded to, you will find the following sentence regarding this particular subject:
the widely documented and well known quad core rendering issue

We all know that there are work-arounds for this, and we also know that this is not something that you see everywhere. It is however something that you see consistently on so many systems that we know there is something amiss in the software. Hardware issues would not have been consistent.

When you wake up in the morning and feel that you just have to be obtuse that day blink, try to stay away from public fora.

Awww yes. Terje comes "out of the box" with the put-downs... I would not have expected anything less.

"the widely documented and well known quad core rendering issue"

"widely documented".... by who exactly?

"memory leaks" are widely documented too.... and so are purple clouds by those smoking that "whacky tobaccy". I think I'll start a "widely documented" issue today.... let's see... oh yes... here's a good one... there's absolutely no end to the amount of ram you can use in vista ;)

>> Why do you think this is the case?

Simple, SCS does not relate to the web as a distribution media for their prosumer application. That is just plain weird.

>> Don't the more cut-down versions of Vegas have this?

Not the last time I checked. That was the previous version of those. Nothing relating to web stuff.

>> Why or HOW should SONY Vegas engineers concern/worry about this?

Many reasons they should concern them selves about the out-of-the-box experience. One of them is that I purchase software to become more efficient. If the software default settings are useless and needs to be altered then that is not making me more efficient, it is making me chase all over google etc to figure out how to tweak the output to suit arguably the most popular forms of video delivery today outside of professional TV.

Sadly this isn't all. As I alluded to above, the way SCS encodes within the MP4 wrapper makes Vegas encoded video utterly unsuited for web delivery. There is a simple fix, but why should a third party have to develop software to put the MP4 MOOV Atom where it belongs, at the beginning of a file?

Also, why is it that SCS still doesn't deliver software that can actually be used to deliver reasonable content for BD? I mean, honestly. Two years later and Ulead's $49 or whatever it is now, toy software does a better job. Isn't Vegas targeting the prosumer market?

"Also, why is it that SCS still doesn't deliver software that can actually be used to deliver reasonable content for BD? I mean, honestly. Two years later and Ulead's $49 or whatever it is now, toy software does a better job. Isn't Vegas targeting the prosumer market?"

This is absolutely and totally untrue.
It is interesting (and irritating) to note that Ulead was the FIRST to get it out, and get it right, but I have BOTH Ulead and Vegas and have been delivering FLAWLESS BD through Vegas for quite some time now. Ulead has a great little "smart render" system I'll give you that... but when it actually has to render something.... it starts falling apart.... and why it defaults on "lower field first" for most of its templates (including your "upper field first" for original file inputs).... I'll never know. Try importing a M2V and adding AC3 audio... it will recompress every time, or try doing a 24p BD in MF6.... good luck with that. Yes...Ulead MF6 has its own little faults and is not perfect.... just like every other software out there.

I say to those that state this sort of thing.... learn how to use Vegas and dvda PROPERLY and you'll have a great experience, but if you don't want to take the time.... oh well.

According to the latest feature list for VMS it does come with direct to Youtube and Newblue's FX package.

I don't think it has any transitions other than what Vegas has, the product comparison doesn't even show Vegas as having any, go figure.

Bob.

bob:
interesting point! Being in NTSC land I gave my dad my old copy of Vegas 4 a while ago & he went right to town, straight "out of the box" (had a real box for that one!). Didn't need to change anything: he was dealing with NTSC DV to begin with! But if you're not.... then you do need to know what you're doing. But your valid complaint brings up a technical issue: there's what, ~a dozen different formats modern cameras/drives can record to, how would you get the user to decide which to use? I use NTSC DV & HDV, You could use PAL DV & HDV. Etc. I like your idea of a warning that gives the option to never have it pop up again... as long as it has that option. I already know what I'm putting on my tl. :)

Terje:
I have a quad core, no "bug". It was brought up about what if SCS had tech specs that WOULD work (never worked for other software I've used with specifics, but whatever). You don't have your specs in your profile. So... Me & others who have quad core AMD's report no issues. SCS always mentions AMD in press releases/64-bit references. Most people here still say "intel CPU's + intel chipsets = best" like it's 1993. I'm 99% sure people here don't care what SCS would recommend or promote as they're of this mentality. You have an intel + intel combo?

"But your valid complaint brings up a technical issue: there's what, ~a dozen different formats modern cameras/drives can record to, how would you get the user to decide which to use?"

When you install a Ulead product it asks you whether you want NTSC or PAL. It even has an option there to choose your local just in case you don't know what or where pal/ntsc is.

I would suspect those using Vegas pro are a wee bit passed this level of editing/installing. If not then why would that be SCS's fault???

These sorts of questions are at the "ulead" end of the scale..... and that's where they belong.

Bob... no disrespect intended... but you are a serious flip-flopper. One minute you're screaming at SCS for making Vegas appear to be too consumer level-ish and the next.... not consumer level friendly enough. Do you really want a program like Ulead that treats you like a novice?

OOBE is such a common concept that most of my clients just use the acronym. (We're talking about "Out Of Box Experience")

As far as SCS and Vegas is concerned, we're just talking about the "first run" experience and in that situation if the default template on first run is locale dependent then Vegas should detect it. If the first run template is SD then Vegas should detect your locale. It's very, very stupid for vegas to default to ntsc on first run if the locale is obviously pal-based.

I don't buy the idea that Vegas users ought to know what they're doing. Many people who edit video for a living don't actually know what they're doing in a technical sense. Good design lead you to make good choices. I kind of hated the way Mac users used to throw the word intuitive because it always implied to me the idea that you didn't need to know anything about what you were doing, but if you take Intuitive to mean that users should be able to make good guesses and to guess right, then Intuitive is a good design goal.

Real support costs SCS money but this forum is probably just a fixed cost. If you want to get your issues noticed you really, really need to keep pinging SCS for support. Why would an engineer care about OOBE? Well, first off I think a good engineer is a craftsperson and cares about quality. They get pounded down by marketing and project managers. If you want those people to give a damn you need to incur a support cost.

Rob Mack

Web templates...let's just say that SCS needs to pay equal attention to all output types.

Here's a deeper issue with templates which spiderwebs out to all sorts of custom user setting. Vegas needs a management feature that allows you to organize and manage templates and presets. You should be able to put templates into folders, export and import them, email them to other people. Without this, SCS could just insert templates into Vegas until the list is so long that you can never find anything.

Rob Mack

Just a few bits of info, not specifically aimed at anyone.

1) That "cheap" VMS product outsells Vegas 10:1. I'd hazard a guess if it wasn't for the money made from VMS sales Vegas would be long gone.

2) Vegas does not have any collaborative workflow solution so we're kind of forced into using Youtube etc as the vehicle to cummincate with our clients.

3) It's NOT just the PAL / NTSC issue. There's also the default de-interlace method trap. It took years after Vegas was first released before anyone here realised that was an issue. It is not in the documentation, not even the people at the time who were Vegas trainers knew about that trap.

4) Just because an NLE comes with simplified support for something doesn't make it "cheap". That's the most idiotic view of the world I've ever read, period. Just because an NLE ships with 1,001 god aweful 3D transitions doesn't make it "cheap". Users using them might make them "cheap" but not the other way around. Just for the record one of the most powerful stock effects in After Effect is the 3D Shatter, if you take the time to learn what it's capable of.

5) Don't get me started on the major stuff up that is Vegas's implementation of 32bit float. How many users have been made fools of by that one. I'm talking about people certified to train the trainer.

Bob.

"1) That "cheap" VMS product outsells Vegas 10:1."
At around $100 Bob, I should certainly hope so! But there is a rather huge following on the AVS forum (and I use them just for example) that would die to upgrade if given the money.

"Youtube etc as the vehicle to cummincate with our clients."
huh??? With all the modern ways of communicating.... the only one you can come up with is Youtube??? I would say that this issue is more YOU than anything else.

"3) It's NOT just...."
Okay... so wake me up when you have ceased with all the add-in complaints and sideways tangents.... THEN we'll talk.

"4) Just because an NLE comes with simplified support for something doesn't make it "cheap"."
So you're telling me that if the ulead install choice was added to Avid MC that people WOULDN'T laugh?? Come on Bob... get real.

"5) Don't get me started on the major stuff up that is Vegas's implementation of 32bit float."
Yup.... that's pretty major alright [tongue in cheek].

I've asked you this before Bob... if you're so unhappy with Vegas... then why don't you just shut up and leave?? If I was you standing there banging my head into a brick wall over and over again..... No.... wait a minute..... I WOULDN'T do that. In fact I left Avid to come here.... BEST choice I ever made. Do yourself a favor and go, because as it stand now the only thing I can say is that Sony has found a real sucker.... hates it and keeeeeeeeeps riiiiight on buying.

Avid just put out a 14 day trial period for MC.... try hard as you can to operate that "out of the box". The truth of the matter is that a novice CAN muddle their way through an edit session with Vegas Pro. But something like MC..... good luck with that in the 14 days they give you. I'll wager that most will take the entire 14 days just to get the program to flash up on the screen.

Avid Basic Training is five days full time.

After that you can take the Intermediate and Advanced modules.

But already after the five day basic boot camp, many edit faster than they ever did in any other NLE.

The 14 day trial may be mostly for people who are used to the big Avids and wonder if this new "software-only" NLE is really usable.

I really suspect that Bob hit the nose on the button (I hope I'm not mixing my metaphors here :O) when he basically said that VMS is the main product and Vegas Pro is the orphan in the family.

But SCS having VMS may have saved Vegas Pro from being dropped completely. With profits from VMS, they can keep VP8 alive until they can figure out a way to sell it for more money. The latter, from a practical standpoint, would have to include looking at every aspect of the software from the user's perspective.

There is nothing that says that everything in a professional NLE has to all-manual.

A lot of people switched from Avid to Final Cut Studio because Motion made a lot of things easy and quick (thanks to "behaviors" especially), and because FCP let users choose which hardware to get for interfacing to professional decks and cameras (and video monitors).

Long live designing for the User Experience!

Bjørn, where did you find that announcement?

TV Technology's NAB issue (print magazine). They may have it on their web site, don't have time to look right now.

/Björn (spelled this way a long time ago, at least since the king so named who ruled three centuries before Harald I Bluetooth, the name means "Bear," as in the animal)

[Before I get any flak over the spelling statement above: I used to be fluent in the futhark (rune alphabet) when I worked with it professionally, but now I can't remember what runes were used to write the name of this long-ago king. My neurons are mostly used up for production now.]

"Avid Basic Training is five days full time. "
And that basic training comes...... out of the box..... right.
That's something COMPLETELY different, course.

I've asked you this before Bob... if you're so unhappy with Vegas... then why don't you just shut up and leave?? If I was you standing there banging my head into a brick wall over and over again..... No.... wait a minute..... I WOULDN'T do that. In fact I left Avid to come here.... BEST choice I ever made. Do yourself a favor and go, because as it stand now the only thing I can say is that Sony has found a real sucker.... hates it and keeeeeeeeeps riiiiight on buying.
================
Blink,

You have joined the fortunately small amount of people on these forums who have decided that any legitimate criticism of Vegas is tantamount to treason.

It has always been and still is a retarded attitude.

I defended you when some cretins were treating you unfairly on these forums around a year and a half ago and I'll defend Bob now that you appear unable to see the cretin in the mirror.

Tone it down. Bob has spent more hours of his own time testing and researching problems posted here for virtually anyone who had a question on this forum unselfishly for more years than I can remember. If you were a little more observant instead of blowing toxic exhaust smoke, you might put this in it's proper perspective and realize you stepped over the line.

Tone it down.

John

"You have joined the fortunately small amount of people on these forums who have decided that any legitimate criticism of Vegas is tantamount to treason."

No Craft.... that's not true at all.
If you look in past posts you'll see that even I at times criticize Vegas. There ARE people on this forum however that CAN'T WAIT and DIE for ANY moment talk down the product on ANY front.... and Bob (IMO) is one of them.

"Bob has spent more hours of his own time testing and researching problems posted here"
Bob (IMO) needs to move on. It's to the point now where Bob can't even figure out which way his "critisizm" should come. Six months ago he was complaining that Vegas wasn't being professional enough as it tried to cater to a less professional crowd. Now he's complaining that it's not novice friendly and it should be able to be used by any tom, dick, or harry.... straight out of the box. Bob can't wait for ANY thread to come along so he can open up both barrels and unload.

>> "widely documented".... by who exactly?

As I was saying, when you feel particularly obtuse, stay away from public fora. Two things to your rather dumb question - if you want some in-depth discussion on what someone else said, you should respond to THEIR posting, not mine. I was not the one who said that the quad core bug was widely documented.

Secondly, the quad core rendering problem is widely reported which you would both have known and acknowledged if it was not for your being more obtuse than usual today.

>> "memory leaks" are widely documented too

I think I know what you are referring to and as usual you have absolutely no clue.

>> there's absolutely no end to the amount of ram you can use in vista

Nobody has ever said anything of that nature. Your pea-sized brain is having trouble as usual.