Vegas and rendering :( fed up. Again.

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CClub wrote on 6/9/2010, 11:11 AM
Lars doesn't want your help. He wants your attention.

How many of the symptoms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorderNarcissistic Personality[/link] would you say apply to his posting above (and in his countless other self-absorbed postings):

Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV): The essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments. In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
4. Requires excessive admiration.
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
kkolbo wrote on 6/9/2010, 11:24 AM
Bummer, I am NPD. I fit 5, borderline 6.

At least I have a name for it now. Until now I was just known as an arrogant ba$tard.

KK
ingvarai wrote on 6/9/2010, 12:54 PM
Lars:
>So, just tell me EXACLY what works
Go to the cinema and watch Avatar, it works!
Ingvar
LarsHD wrote on 6/9/2010, 2:32 PM
"Subject: RE: Vegas and rendering :( fed up. Again.
Reply by: wonderotter
Date: 6/9/2010 3:43:53 PM

Lars - here's a plan. Go buy a cheap external 2.5 and cosolidate your project on it. Mail it to me and I'll try rendering it. Then we'll send it to everyone else who is interested in helping you and see who's machine rolls over. Should provide definitive proof of a consistent problem. I'm happy to invest a couple of hours!"


Good constructive idea wonderotter! Perhaps isolating it to something that is managable in size would be good though. Sharing problematic crash causing projects is a good way to identify problems. Perhaps start with finding a way of adding MOV files on the time line and see Vegas crash. Is there somewhere I can upload lets say 20 MOV clips that everyone could download?

Nice that you think in problem solving terms :)

Best,
Lars
farss wrote on 6/9/2010, 2:44 PM
"Is there somewhere I can upload lets say 20 MOV clips that everyone could download?"

www.yousendit.com

Maybe there's better sites, hopefully someone else will speak up.

There's also www.drop.io unlike YouSendIt you cannot upload just anything however a bunch of MOV files should be fine.

Bob.
ingvarai wrote on 6/9/2010, 3:15 PM
Lars:
>Thgis project has 47 tracks. Lots of text, lots of audio etc. Lots of pan/crop 3D motion tracks etc. Vegas is impressive when it comes to generating lots of tracks...
If you really have 47 tracks, I suggest approaching these issues by chopping up and separating your project into manageable chunks. Vegas itself is not the cause of your troubles, that is for sure.
Ingvar
will-3 wrote on 6/9/2010, 3:20 PM
Gee Whiz Lars... with so many people successfully using Vegas... doesn't that indicate that maybe there actually is a problem with your system, your setup, cockpit error or whatever? Or do you just discount those people with a wave of the hand?

And the statement that other software works with out a problem... well that just doesn't pass the test of reasonableness...

And, why do you feel so compelled to come to the forum and rant. My guess is that if you post a reasonable question in a civil tone you will find that many will be more than glad to help you... and that you will also find that in fact that there is a solution to your issue of the moment.

This sort of reminds me of an Apple user I know has to occasionally work on a Microsoft platform... and constantly declares that Windows just doesn't work.

I'm convinced that if you took the Mac OS and hacked the windows logo into it and put it in a PC case... they would first yell still yell and scream that it didn't work.

(Not to get the Apple guys going. Apples are great machines and they sure are creative over there... even if they do want to control everything :)

That being said... have you tried partitioning the project... say it is a 10 minute presentation video. Have you tried dividing it up into two five minute segments and rendering each separately to try and see where the problem is? Then divide that 5-minute segment into two 2.5 minute segments... or five 1-minute segments. Or instead of muting time lines... just delete them for a test render... maybe if you come up with some organized trouble shooting method you can narrow this down to a particular file you've put on the timeline that has a problem... or whatever.

Grazie wrote on 6/9/2010, 9:13 PM
Lars: "Is there somewhere I can upload lets say 20 MOV clips that everyone could download?"

Bob: "www.yousendit.com. "

OK, Lars, over to you, when you are ready. You're OK to take as much time as you wish.

Grazie
bStro wrote on 6/9/2010, 10:58 PM
So please list the EXACT specs that I need to run Vegas trouble free

If you really want that info, all you have to do is click the usernames of all the people telling you Vegas works fine on their systems -- more often than not, that will show you their system specs.

For what it's worth, I've been using Vegas (v4.0 through v8.0) on the same crappy AMD Athlon PC for six years or so. Has never crashed, has never given me an error message other than when I did something wrong (like forgot to turn on an external drive or something). So you don't need any specific specs -- just start with a clean, relatively empty system and go from there.

Rob
LarsHD wrote on 6/10/2010, 7:43 AM
Bob: "www.yousendit.com. "

OK, Lars, over to you, when you are ready. You're OK to take as much time as you wish.

Grazie

---------------------------------------------------------------------

1.
I have 30 MOV clips/files from the 5D2 camera. Each is approx 86 MB and 15 sec long. It's 1920x1080, 29.97 fps. Each clip contains lots of smooth motion which is good to easily identify stutter etc.


2.
Please help me identify where and how I can upload these 30 MOV clips to you guys can have access to all these and we would speak about the same thing...


3.
It would certainly be useful if all who are so kind in participating in this test perhaps could have PProCS5 and a Cuda/Mercury compatible video card as well. That would make comparisons more fun and educating. But isn't necessary of course.

Will yousendit allow me to uplolad 30 clips, each 86 MB and then for all of you 0 - 30 perhaps to download this?

And will you guys actually *download* my files and actually spend time *TESTING*?

Looking forward to to sharing som interesting experiences with you guys!


Best
Lars





farss wrote on 6/10/2010, 7:55 AM
"Will yousendit allow me to uplolad 30 clips, each 86 MB and then for all of you 0 - 30 perhaps to download this?"

I doubt it as that's around 2.5GB, I think their limit is 1GB and even that might freak out many here downloading that much data.

If you want to provide the media for a sample Vegas project that's crashing I doubt you need all the original assets. Simply replace them with one file of the same nature should make no difference to whatever is causing the crash.
If you want to talk about how well or otherwise Vegas handles the footage from the 5D a smaller sample set would suffice surely. Use WinZip to put them all into the one file smaller than whatever limits YouSendIt imposes and upload that then post the link to download. If you want more generous downloads from YouSendIt you have to pay.

Bob.
LarsHD wrote on 6/10/2010, 8:12 AM
bStro wrote: "For what it's worth, I've been using Vegas (v4.0 through v8.0) on the same crappy AMD Athlon PC for six years or so. Has never crashed, has never given me an error message other than when I did something wrong "


Lars:
Question 1: Is this really true??? 6 years and not a single crash with Vegas? Not one single error message in six years??? Is this REALLY true? And on a crappy PC? How is this possible? This sounds almost like a testimony of a happy Apple customer :)

Question 2: How often do you use Vegas?
daryl wrote on 6/10/2010, 8:38 AM
Adding to what bStro said, I have been using Vegas since it was "Vegas Pro", all the way to Vegas 9, I don't know how many years that is.

yes, I have had a handful of crashes and errors, maybe 2 handfuls, but in that many years that's not so bad. And I use it essentially every day, unless I'm out-of-town. From a 386 with Windows for Workgroups to an i7 Windows 7.

Maybe I'm just fortunate, or maybe Sony (Sonic Foundry) Vegas is simply as good or better than most any other app.
Opampman wrote on 6/10/2010, 9:07 AM
LarsHD

I'm with bStro...Using Vegas on a custom built machine with a Core Duo processor about 3 years old, XP SP3. Use Vegas an average of 6-7 hours a day. Probably had 5 crashes since I started with Vegas 3 on an old Dell years ago. Usually found that the problem was something I did stupid and not necessarily related to Vegas. Doing HDV for the past three years and no problem editing or rendering. Some of it many, many tracks for a music show.
bStro wrote on 6/10/2010, 10:10 AM
You can add all the question marks you want, Lars, it's still true. Frankly, I don't know why it should be such a shock. Very few of the programs I use crash or throw errors without a good reason, so why should Vegas be any different? What can I say, I take care of my PC.

And by "crappy PC," I mean old and not particularly high powered by today's standards. But I built it using quality parts (before I'd even heard of Vegas, lest you think I "custom built it" specifically for Vegas), and I keep it clean and lean. If the lack of crashes is really that foreign to you, I agree with all the other comments you've received -- you need to investigate what's wrong with your machine.

At any rate, my point was to let you know that if you're serious about putting Vegas on a second PC, you don't need any particular specs to do so. Though I figured that point was fairly obvious.

Rob
ritsmer wrote on 6/10/2010, 10:23 AM
Waste of time...

so sorry,

just waste of time...
LarsHD wrote on 6/10/2010, 11:48 AM
OK guys, here's TEST #1. I found it isn't necessary to upload huge amounts. You can download a file from dpreview and simply copy that a number of times :) So time saved. Let's go:


(This is just one of several nice tests we can do together with these files!)


1.
To: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page19.asp

2.
Scroll down and find the bottom most video (street view). Right click and "Save Target As". The file name is: "5D2_Bright.mov". It is 66 mb.

3.
Create a folder on your fastest drive. Usually your RAID-drive. Name this folder 35 MOVs. Then save the file to this folder.

4.
Copy the file 34 times so you get 35 MOV files. Rename the files so that you get: 01.MOV 02.MOV 03.MOV ..... 35.MOV

5.
Launch Vegas Pro. Set project for 1920x1080, type in 30 fps (this 5D2 file is before the 24/25/29.97 firmware came out). Square pixels, 8 bit etc.

6.
Go into "explorer" from within Vegas. Navigate to the folder on the RAID-drive. Highlight all the 35 MOV files. Hit "Enter".



Now please:

a) confirm that all clips land correctly on the time line
b) confirm all clips have a thumb nail
c) confirm no clips are red, green, black etc.
d) move cursor and check it works and shows in the preview
e) confirm the project plays ok
f) how much RAM is being used?
g) confirm you can save the project
h) exit Vegas
i) confirm you can restart Vegas and that the project loads ok


Please post your results!

I've had 3 guys doing it already. SCS has also already received this test project.

Thanks in advance for your kind cooperation!

And special thanks of course to those of you who test first and speak later... ;)


Lars


PS . For those interested, please try this in Edius, Premiere Pro, Avid etc and see what the results are there. There are trial versions available.

A. Grandt wrote on 6/10/2010, 2:27 PM
Mine crashes at about 20 added clips, when I use the original that is.

Then again, I don't think I ever got around to applying the qt7 dll fix. There is something not right about that .mov container, Vegas does not like it one bit.

I then ran the .mov through Cineform NeoHD, at best quality (v. 4.3.0 Build 240) and made 34 copies of that output. It takes up a bit more space I agree, however Vegas handled it flawlessly, and little to no stutter on the preview!
Mem usage was under 1GB with Cineform. My machine was doing other things at the time, so mem usage was a bit uncertain.
LarsHD wrote on 6/10/2010, 3:00 PM
Thanks so much for your test!

But please don't include other parameters here, like Cineform etc. It's really important that we do the exact same thing otherwise we will not beable to compare and discuss in an efficient way. Also, please don't do "other things" on the PC when doing the test... ;)

So you say it crashes for you at around 20 clips? What happens when it crashes? Does it just poof / vanish from the screen or what did you do after you realized it had crashed?

Many, many thanks for your test and please you other guys, try this too!


Best,
Lars
A. Grandt wrote on 6/10/2010, 4:10 PM
Lars, of course I include other parameters, of course I mention what they are, and of course I only did so after trying your test.

This is not just about testing a possible problem, where ever that problem may be, but also coming up with a viable alternatives that'll allow you to move forward. Cineform is one such example, and one I seem to recall is said to be a vital tool in just about every editor's toolbox, especially when it comes to editing the incredibly CPU intensive h.264 streams.

Incidentally, I also tested this on an AVCHD stream, it was slightly lower bit rate, but longer, and was comparable in size (~64MB), it too went without a hitch.

As I said, I never applied the QuickTime fix, and have no idea if that is why my Vegas crashed when it reached 20 copies of that clip.
If you have a Canon 5D-Mk II, and it's .mov files is causing these problems for Vegas, even if the camera has the latest firmware, you should definitely report it as a bug to SCS.
Maybe (and this is my opinion) Vegas have a problem handling the Quicktime container format, maybe Vegas have a problem handling Canon's h.264 flavour, maybe the clip you told us to use is defective. (You said it was made before Canon fixed a problem with a firmware update).

I for one do not have the Codec I assume Canon is supplying for reading it's files, and it is not entirely unknown that different vendors have different and to some extend incompatible flavours of the h.264 standard. If Canon is doing something funny, you can not expect Vegas to handle it unless SCS has been told about it.
ushere wrote on 6/10/2010, 6:05 PM
5.

why not match property by pointing to file? (which is what i ALWAYS do!)

too busy to try right now, but will certainly give it a whirl.

John_Cline wrote on 6/10/2010, 6:28 PM
QuickTime is crap, always has been, always will be. Apple doesn't know how to write software for the PC. It's QuickTime that's crashing, not Vegas. Transcode the MOV files to something different. Problem solved.
Steve Mann wrote on 6/10/2010, 8:36 PM
"QuickTime is crap, always has been, always will be. "

Agreed. I am like bStro, two-year old HP PC with a Core-2 processor. Never a crash that I didn't cause through cockpit error. I use Vegas daily and frequently with mixed media and many tracks. One thing though, I never, ever try to edit an MOV file. Always make an AVI intermediate.

Steve
Opampman wrote on 6/10/2010, 8:50 PM
Agree with John and Steve... if you want to use QT, use Apple. They don't know how to make PC files.