I think just start a new thread and explain what you are shooting, your goals and ask for assistance. 10-bit may well not be necessary for what you are doing. Also screenshots of the GoPro Player software would be good to see what render options it has.

If your camera can shoot ProTune Flat Native, ProTune Flat it will work with the Leeming LUT. A LUT is just a matrix of values that can be used in editing software to color correct footage- in this case to give more accurate color than what GoPro does by default.

I think just start a new thread

@RogerS Are you bored of saying that yet? 🤣

@todd-b and RogerS: Thanks again for helping a nube with all the useful insight! Much appreciated!

@Former user: Thanks for the hazing.

@AEMontoya You're welcome 👍

😘

@AEMontoya Just for the record, I couldn't open your file in Vegas either, 🤷‍♂️👍

@Former user  Cool. Thanks for double-checking.

@AEMontoya

 I tried it in Magix MS, no joy there,

Boris's Mocha Pro & Silhouette had no prob with the files but they aren't NLE software

But!! ... Hitfilm pro was smooth as silk, no probs at all so tried it in Vegas Effects, no prob there either, even before caching of the timeline (blue line going across the top of the timeline)

Hitfilm looks like it's become subscription based but £10 a month works out cheaper than a lot of software, sorry i know nothing about it but you could try it 🤷‍♂️ https://fxhome.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=17549642553&utm_content=138044507437&utm_term=hitfilm%20pro&keyword=hitfilm%20pro&ad=608908105370&matchtype=e&device=c&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxb2XBhDBARIsAOjDZ35ELkohcAjtcxX-O0r8L4EOdYSGxtBI-JiEyt6oRwadkBdLfdpayesaAiDVEALw_wcB

Interesting. My mind is about to explode from all this information, but the Vegas Effects has caught my eye. I deliberated before pulling the trigger, but I did end up purchasing Vegas Post Full Stack (non-subscription). Therefore, it appears that I do have Vegas Effects, according to the product description. TBH, I have no idea what it is or how it might help me accomplish my goal ... LOL. But I guess I'll add that to my list of 10 billion things to learn.

Ahhh ... now I see it. I guess, of all the programs that Vegas Post came with, Vegas Effects was the only one that didn't create a shortcut link icon on my desktop--I found it lurking in the start menu. Indeed, it does open the file, FWIW.

@AEMontoya Vegas Effects is/was like a child of Hitfilm Pro, (the relationship has ended)

Hitfilm Pro is an editor that has a timeline where you can add multiple clips along it's timeline, each clip can be separated into 'composite' shot where effects etc can be added, these effects/alterations then auto transfer back onto the main timeline,

Vegas Effects tho is just the composite shot part of it, you can't really add multiple clips one after the other to make a movie, you can add other clips that are then like Picture in Picture etc. but it's just for adding effects to a clip, It can be opened from Vegas by right clicking on the event on Vegas's timeline - Edit in Vegas Effects, it will open with the clip you clicked right on, Save then go back to Vegas Pro & those effects are then added. Vegas Effects can also be opened on it's own as i did in my vid, but again the timeline is only as long as the clip that's imported.

I think I see. So, I perhpas I could open individual Cineform files in Vegas Effects run by itself, and make whatever modifcations. But, I'm imagining that transferring those files to Vegas Pro would still not be possible? Or perhaps Vegas Effects could be used to export the files into a format compatible with Vegas Pro, which might still be higher quality than the HVEC and H264 exports directly from GoPro Player? I do know that the the GoPro Player gives limited export options other than the type of file (image attached). Silly enough, looking at the export settings in the below image was what gave rise to my entire conundrum; I saw the blue sliders showing relatively great quality for the Cineform vs H264 and HVEC formats, and I latched onto, without avail, trying to figure out a way to get those files into Vegas. Being that they were .mov, I figured my issue was the same as the original poster's for this thread. In the end, I'd love to just transfer the original files straight from the GoPro to VP, but then I wouldn't be able to use ReelSteady, which is integrated into the GoPro Player, and, from what I've seen in Youtube videos, does a much better job at stabilizing drone footage compared with the typical editing programs out there. In the end, I do think I see the writing on the wall: Just export from from the GoPro Player as H264 or HVEC with the highest bit rate and use that in VP19. I'm ok with that.

I

@AEMontoya I'm off to bed & can't comment too much on the formats. others will blow your mind with info 🤯🤣 but MP4, MOV are just containers, they carry a variety of information, AVC is H264 & HEVC is H265, either of these can be in an MP4 container, .MOV can have alsorts of info as you've found out, AVC has been around for a long time & 99-100% of software will handle it no prob, HEVC is a more modern version, it's designed to give better compression of info for the modern bigger 4k 8k files that have a lot of information that needs reducing in size in order to fit in small hard-drives like in phones, Some software however still doesn't like HEVC, you're better off Googling HEVC vs AVC. rendering at a higher bitrate than the orig footage is pointless & will only give a bigger file size, but choosing the right bitrate if you're converting from one format to a different one can be hard to work out 🤷‍♂️ It's minefield so i try to record in AVC & render in AVC, match the render bitrate to the orig footage, keeps it simple 😁👍👍

Right on. Thanks for some of that clarification. I had read a bit about HEVC vs AVC yesterday, and my default plan, once I convinced myself that VP didn't play well with the Cineform codec (which I know see is different than .mov containers), was to to use HEVC. I noticed that the original files stored on the GoPro memory card were HEVC, and thus, like you were suggesting, figured that I would just stick with this format all the way, from GoPro into GoPro Player, from GoPro Player into Vegas, and then rendered as HEVC from Vegas. It just intuitively makes sense to avoid converting when not necessary, I guess. I tested all sorts of render settings in Vegas yesterday, using AVC and HEVC templates on both AVC and HEVC imported files, comparing CPU usage, time to render, file size, ... , and I think I came up with a good workflow. I even discovered how to use my computer's dedicated Nvidia GPU (Quadro T2000) to vastly increase the rendering time in VP, which was a nice treat. Anyway, thanks for all your help; with the basics established, I feel I can finally move on to learning more about editing the video clips I have via Vegas Pro, and now maybe even Vegas Edit, so that I can finally make a neat video. Cheers! 😀

Regarding the idea of matching bit rates, that is one area where I have a small amount of confuson ... Using this little program I downloaded called MediaInfo, I was able to get a bunch of what I guess is referred to as metadata for my files.

The "overall bitrate" for the MPEG-4 file with HEVC format/codec that is directly from the microsd card of the GoPro is: 99.6 Mb/s

The "overall bitrate" for the MPEG-4 file with HEVC format/codec that was exported from the GoPro Player after applying stabilization via ReelSteady to the above file is: 80.4 Mb/s

If, prior to exporting the file from GoPro Player, I increase the position of the blue slider to "Max Bitrate" (by default it was only about 80%), then the "overall bitrate" for the second file above goes from 80.4 to 99.8 Mb/s, which is essentially the same as the 99.6 Mb/s for the first file listed above, which, again, was taken directly from the microSD card.

Since this new value of 99.8 Mb/s is higher, and closer to the original 99.6 Mb/s, I'm assuming I should export my files from GoPro Player with the max Bitrate allowable (I assume the blue slider on the GoPro Player always just maxes out at whatever the max bitrate is for the original file recorded on the microsd card)?

Lastly, I decided upon the following VP template to use for rendering:

MAGIX HEVC/APC MP4 (UHD 2160; 59.44 NVENC)

Within the "Customize Template" options, how should I set the bitrate to match that of the above files? (See screen shot below.) I assume that the above "overall bitrate" indicated by the MediaInfo program is the same as what Vegas Pro refers to as "Average (bps)"? Thus, since the file to be rendered is 99.8 Mb/s, I would enter: 99,800,000 in the "Customize Template" option? Moreover, what sort of Max should be placed on the bitrate? Or, maybe the "Variable Bitrate" should be changed to "Constant Bitrate"?

You don't need to obsessively match file formats or bitrates and they only truly match if the file is compressed in the same way (even within HEVC and AVC there are differences).

Since multiple saves are lossy I'd go higher than the original file for the GoPro conversion, not knowing exactly how it does its compression. So I'd use the slider on maximum if it were me.

Then at the Vegas Pro step, just output a reasonable bitrate and format for its intended purpose. It doesn't have to be 60fps or even the same resolution or format.

For example I would use 60fps from a GoPro for speedramps and slow motion on a 30fps timeline in Vegas and then output a 30fps AVC file using the MagixAVC preset for 1080p (or higher if you prefer). I'd keep it on variable bitrate and use the Mainconcept encoder for a final render (it's slow) or QSV/VCE or NVENC for quick drafts or when quality at a given bitrate isn't so important. That should play on just about any device.

 

Within the "Customize Template" options, how should I set the bitrate to match that of the above files? (See screen shot below.) I assume that the above "overall bitrate" indicated by the MediaInfo program is the same as what Vegas Pro refers to as "Average (bps)"? Thus, since the file to be rendered is 99.8 Mb/s, I would enter: 99,800,000 in the "Customize Template" option? Moreover, what sort of Max should be placed on the bitrate? Or, maybe the "Variable Bitrate" should be changed to "Constant Bitrate"?

@AEMontoya

The bitrate required depends on which hardware encoder you're using. some are better than others, and also the content you're filming. In the example below the bitrate requirements are very different to match the same quality

You don't need to obsessively match file formats or bitrates and they only truly match if the file is compressed in the same way (even within HEVC and AVC there are differences).

Ok, Roger that. (Sorry, it just came out.)

Since multiple saves are lossy I'd go higher than the original file for the GoPro conversion, not knowing exactly how it does its compression. So I'd use the slider on maximum if it were me.

That sounds good to me.

Then at the Vegas Pro step, just output a reasonable bitrate and format for its intended purpose. It doesn't have to be 60fps or even the same resolution or format.

Interesting, I didn't know there was so much leeway.

For example I would use 60fps from a GoPro for speedramps and slow motion on a 30fps timeline in Vegas and then output a 30fps AVC file using the MagixAVC preset for 1080p (or higher if you prefer). I'd keep it on variable bitrate and use the Mainconcept encoder for a final render (it's slow) or QSV/VCE or NVENC for quick drafts or when quality at a given bitrate isn't so important. That should play on just about any device.

I just spent the last hour and a half looking into the idea of putting 60 fps on a 30 fps timeline. Apparently, some guys with drone footage do this to give a more cinematic look while avoiding stuttering during pans and such (some add some kind of pixel motion blur; not sure what Vegas has to offer in that respect). It also allows them to introduce slow-mo, when desired, as you mentioned. It sounds worth looking into.

The main point of interest I have inow is with respect to using the Mainconcept encoder for a final render. I don't mind waiting a long time for rendering, but I didn't know NVENC only allowed for draft quality. I was hoping that the decreased processing time I was witnessing when using it was merely because Vegas was utilizing my Nvidia GPU rather than my system's default processor; I didn't know the quickness came at the price of quality. That's disappointing to hear.

So, to confirm, even though my files are HVEC format, it doesn't matter whether I choose either of the following presets when rendering?

MAGIX HEVC/AAC MP4

MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4

Another point of confusion is that the first one of these has two templates:

UHD 2160p 59.94 fps (Intel QSV) & UHD 2160 59.94 fps (NVENC)

However, the second one has three:

UHD 2160p 59.94 fps (Intel QSV) & UHD 2160 59.94 fps (NVENC) AND UHD 2160 59.94 fps

BUT, regardless of which of the above 5 templates I choose, it appears that I can change the encoder within each one to either Mainconcept HEVC (for the first preset) or Mainconcept AVC (for the second preset), thereby allowing me to use Mainconcept no matter what, as you recommended.

So, is it ok if I just go with the MAGIX HEVC/AAC MP4 with the UHD 2160 59.94 fps (NVENC) template with the encoder set to "Mainconcept HEVC" under "Customize Template"? Or should I go with the MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 with the UHD 2160 59.94 fps, since then I don't need to change the encoder in the "Customize Template" (it'll be "Mainconcept AVC", by default)? If there's not much consequence between one over the other, as you seem to say, I guess it'd be easier to go with the second one, especially since, as someone mentioned in a previous post, AVC is a bit more universally recognized at the moment compared with HEVC. When doing testing yesterday, I didn't notice much of a file size difference, render time difference, or appearance difference beween the two, if I recall correctly (but that was testing on a 23 s clip).

@Former user  Interesting. So, video quality, which can be measured via VMAF, increases logarithmically as a function of bit rate, and some hardware encoders have higher VMAF scores than others at difference bit rates. I really don't know anything about hardware encoders, but I know that my laptop (Lenovo P1 Gen. 2) has the following graphics devices: Nvidia Quadro T2000 and Intel UHD Graphics 630. I couldn't find VMAF scores for these devices online. However, as mentioned in my previous post, I noticed that rendering a clip was over 5 times faster when the encoder in the "Customize Template" window was set to "NV encoder" as opposed to the "Mainconcept encoder" (I'm assuming the latter uses the UHD Graphics 630 while the former uses the Nvidia Quadro T2000). I was really stoked on that, but, from what RogerS said, it sounds like the quality of the render when using the NV encoder is lower. If that is true, I'd rather wait longer for a higher quality product, to be sure.

I noticed that rendering a clip was over 5 times faster when the encoder in the "Customize Template" window was set to "NV encoder" as opposed to the "Mainconcept encoder" (I'm assuming the latter uses the UHD Graphics 630 while the former uses the Nvidia Quadro T2000). I was really stoked on that, but, from what RogerS said, it sounds like the quality of the render when using the NV encoder is lower. If that is true, I'd rather wait longer for a higher quality product, to be sure.

@AEMontoya NV stands for NVENC encoder, that is your T2000's encoder, it's quality is the same as the green dotted lines in the graph. It's a shame an intel is not included in comparison. The intel hardware encoders are very good now, but in 2017 most likely Nvidia encoding was superior

The black line is the software encode, and it performs best when comparing quality to bitrate, but at 4K it's slow, and unless you have a requirment for a smaller file you can use a hardware encoder at a higher bitrate.

There is also a plugin called voukoder, where you have the option to choose quality, rather than bitrate, it will automatically provide the needed bitrate per frame for a given quality, and that's what I use. That's complicating things a bit. Just encode at very high bitrates unless that causes a problem due to file size. If you are familiar with those 2 games used in the comparison and know how different the game play is, you may better understand why so much extra bitrate is required for one gave over another.

It's a bit hard to read the reply as it's all embedded in quotes.

For putting 60fps footage on a 30fps timeline (or more precisely 29.97fps), just set the timeline to that and then right click on media and "add at project framerate." Want faster? Change the playback rate of the event on the timeline. Or create a velocity envelope and you can do a speedramp in Vegas. I think you'll have fun with this if there's any action in your shots.

For final renders it is up to you. NVENC can be acceptable but give it more bitrate than you would for Mainconcept as it's less efficient, which is what Todd's graphic shows. It also depends what the intended purpose is. If it's the video of the day for YouTube it's fine. YouTube compression trashes everything anyway. If you spend months working on a 3 min video and it was pristinely shot, I'd take a few more minutes for the render.

If the project is 29.97fps start with one of the templates for that. Personally I use MagixAVC as AVC files play on just about anything. If we're talking a massive project and file size matters HEVC uses less data (1/2 or less for equivalent quality).

I wouldn't obsess about any of this, though- it's all on the margins for what makes a compelling video. Shoot it well in good light and edit it in a compelling way and people will enjoy it. Improve your craft as you go.