did, but unfortunately it's a little too convoluted for me. but i didn't take any offense, not do i want to give any....

"are you being serious, or turning in to a troll (highly unlikely as your posts are by and large well thought out).
I'm being very serious.
We know how to clone today, but did we know 100 years ago?
We can (and do) put out naturally generated forest fires today with huge water bombers, but could we do it 100 years ago?
How do you know that stopping an earth quake is not preventable? Maybe it's not preventable NOW... but with more research...

And of course with research comes risk of among other things..... chemical spills. Now I suppose we could abandon our wonders and research and go back to our cave man days, but somehow I don't think the vast majority of people in this world would want to go along with that plan.

"I haven't yet heard anybody credibly blame human activity for causing earthquates"
Yet humans are being blamed for changing the weather.

It's just a matter of time before some extremist lays claim that we're somehow speeding up the movement of the tectonic plates.

"i see NO credible correlation between a natural disaster and a man made one."

So if climate change is a man made event, it's a bad thing and we should stop it immediately, but if it turns out to be a natural occurring event then ... oh well?

ima circle all the way back around to my very first post, and how all this still relates to the ORIGINAL POST's problem:

I'm using "Depression" as the example. The more cool stuff we make, the less and less we are ACTUALLY helping HUMANity. We make tons of distractions to keep us further from ourselves, more dependent on a system, and none of this, NONE OF THIS is helping any human "find themselves", become a better PERSON, or reach happiness within themselves and others. THIS is the hidden damage I am talking at here. Depression percentages are on the upswing... but it is "OK" because technology has created great ways to numb and dull that with drugs. ..... isn't anyone worried about why it is on the upswing in the first place? Because we are living wrong, BUT we are all profiting too much (self included) to ever change this. We are creating problems, then creating solutions to the problems we created.

Where is all the "progress" working on making people happier in life? Finding purpose and growing? Most progress is profit based - making cool toys that also open other side industries that are profitable - cars to oil etc - and medicide makes theses advances but even that is sort of skewed... it has to make advances for all teh new ailments we have caused ourselves by eating food from the industrial progress.... IF we all ate 100% natural from birth, I wonder how healthy we might be as to not NEED all the medical advances that had to be created. We'll never know how that could have worked at this stage, but ya know what? THAT is how this whole life game was set up to work best. Science proves it daily, medicine proves it daily, doctors admit it dailiy... yet here we are: diseased, drug dependant.... some one is profiting there.

This all cirlcles back to the original post about how kids are these days..... they are so completely dependent on the system, teh scariest thing is to think about who they would be if that system collapsed on them. Do they even value what life is to not simply heartlessly kill each other for food?

No one here is right or wrong, we'll all just yapping about and interesting and DEEEP topic.
And I am part of this problem reaching for bleeding edge toys, enjoying the spoils and all that. Still... I wonder what could have been.... :)

"John are you saying, the excessive pollution, increase in cancers, obesity, lower of the value of human life, depression, lack of purpose are called getting better?"

Lower value of human life.. and lack of purpose. Don't know where that's coming from. I'm not seeing it.

Way better today...
It's better than being worked to death in unsafe mines and factories for pennies.
It's better than companies dumping toxic crap in our bays and streams and getting away with it.
It's better for women now, even though they aren't treated fully equal.
It's way better for minorities.

Work is liberation for women. They get to pursue their dreams just like men.

Staying home with the kids isn't what it's cracked up to be.

"I'm using "Depression" as the example. The more cool stuff we make, the less and less we are ACTUALLY helping HUMANity."

What's this "we" stuff?
Are you speaking for the wheelchair bound quadriplegics who hope one day they can rid themselves of the chair, or the cancer patients who are wishing for more time?

Sure we create problems. We also solve them too. That's what life is about.

" Do they even value what life is to not simply heartlessly kill each other for food?
But that's exactly what the wild kingdom is all about. You want to talk about a more natural surrounding?

"Kids these days" today are no different than the "kids these days" of 75 years ago. It's the era which has changed. An era which you (quite naturally) can no longer fully relate to. This happened with your parents, and their parents... etc. Like I said, my father thought the end of the world was coming when "kids these day" stopped learning the Slide Rule in favor of the calculator.

Humanity has come a long way from the the dark cave man days. Have we made mistakes? Sure, but that just means we're human. Will we ever stop "making cool stuff"? No, but that just means we're human. Will what we already have on our plate ever be enough? No. But that just means we're human. Why would you want to remove our humanity from us?

I remember how upset many people were when the 1st heart transplant was performed. It was thought your soul was in your heart.

Some people fear change and some of us embrace it. If it wasn't for change, we wouldnt be on this forum. We would still be playing with Super8.

... or watching TV by candle light.... :)

No, Rob, I'm totally okay with the generational changes, understand them, and keep up with them. I'm one of the few I know that actually NOTICES them and thinks "it is what it is", AND see's how most others resist change, or find it "Bad". Even with my topics above, I live for change and embrace it, unlike my collegues, even people I know younger than me.

That doesn't mean I can not see the issues at hand also - for example, kids staring at smart phones instead of each other and their broken attempts at conversation due to lack of learning - and call them out. I can't change the whole world's addictions, but I can talk about seeing the other sides of progress, and how the progress is also creating many new problems.

@Peter Duke

"[I]I haven't yet heard anybody credibly blame human activity for causing earthquates, although I am sure somebody somewhere has done it (eg God's punishment for sin).[/I]"

http://science.discovery.com/tv-shows/stuff-you-should-know/videos/stuff-you-should-know-human-caused-earthquake.htm

credibly, smedibly

On a side note. It's about the interlace artifacts.

"for example, kids staring at smart phones instead of each other and their broken attempts at conversation due to lack of learning"
Old school thinking. Who says they're not staring at and talking each other? My 9 year old daughter speaks to her friends far more than I ever did and could. It is so easy to converse now and there are a dozen different ways of doing it..... text , email, voice, video..... etc. It was actually kind of funny. My daughter was trying to solve a dispute that two friends of hers were involved in. She dialed one on the phone and the other through her tablet and all three spoke on the issue with my daughter being the intermediate. She managed to get them back together... but it's a method I never would have thought of!

My wife SEES her mother everyday on skype in spite of the fact they are separated by 6000 miles.

Years back the "experts" used to say all these video games are going to rot the brain. Today it's a slightly different tune. They're discovering that eye-to-hand coordination and overall reaction time seems to be better with kids who grew up on them. Back when I was in school they had typing classes. Today they're finding that they don't really typing school anymore because kids are generally already faster than schools can teach them.

Does progress create problems? Sure, but does that mean we should just give up on progress, stand still and stagnate until death? Do you really want that?

Because of texting, skyping and Facebook, my kids (in their late 20's) are still in contact with most of their high school and college friends. Even though they are spread throughout the world. And via online gaming, they continue to play together. I'm jealous.

"My wife SEES her mother everyday"

I use skype as well. My question is, can she HUG her? No, not until some ROBOT is made - and those are being worked on right now. ;)

My perspective for a better situation is that familys do not seperate so far and away from each other in the first place. Sure, tech can keep families around the globe in contact, but ONLY because they have all left each other. It was not as important to stay around and help maintain the health and happiness of the elders, or assist as example for the younger ones... now it is about selfish profit obtained or societal defined "succedd" by moving away. Yep, it's all well and good, but can you imagine the health and happiness of a family that stays together over generations? Not talking inbreeding here at all, just the connections and assistance we'd provide each other. There is no way to tell how that works - unless you examine primative tribes etc - because we have grown so far away from the idea of family.... even though we ALL come from one.

Yes, the tech is always cool and handy for backtracking over problems that should never have been a need to be solved.

I was sitting alone in pizza hut lobby just tonight, scoping for wifi signal for kicks while I waited for carryout. One other guy came in and was early for his pizza also... he was told 3 more minutes... so he whips out his phone and starts emailing or texting whatever.... I'm a social person and had we BOTH not been buried in our smart phones, we could have struck up a conversation about anything, and become best of friends for life. Opportunity lost.
(I only got my phone out because I was alone, the staff had retreated into the back and no one else was in the lobby, and I am always curious where free wifi is active)

Where you might see stagnation, I see the clearing of the misidrection or clutter... wipe away all the things that lead us AWAY from happiness, fulfillment, satisfaction and contentment. Look around and most of life is about profit, not making people more fulfilled. A perfect example of this is "FAMILY LAW". Family law is not about "Family", it is about the profiting from the BREAKUP of families.

As an experiment (I have done this myself) try living without your smartphone for two strait days, and stay off the computer and TV. Instead port ALL that time into talking with family you may not be as close with, or friends you wanted to catch up with. Then consider which time seemed of more "Value" to you.

" It was not as important to stay around and help maintain the health and happiness of the elders, or assist as example for the younger ones... now it is about selfish profit obtained or societal defined "succedd" by moving away. Yep, it's all well and good, but can you imagine the health and happiness of a family that stays together over generations?"

Wow! Pardon me for saying so but it appears you have a very pessimistic view of everything. Could it not be that some one has moved away for love? (my wife and I met 15 years ago on the internet and spent a full year writing to each other every day).

" I'm a social person and had we BOTH not been buried in our smart phones, we could have struck up a conversation about anything, and become best of friends for life. Opportunity lost."
How do you know he wasn't already carrying on a full conversation with some one else so there was no opportunity to begin with?


" A perfect example of this is "FAMILY LAW". Family law is not about "Family", it is about the profiting from the BREAKUP of families."
I think we're a bit off topic here but I would suggest family breakups are a bit more complicated then that, but that's a different discussion.

Rob, it is a hundred thousand little things, unseen, unnoticed individually, that add up the modern issues at hand. Our entire system is built up upon that, forcing us to remain dependent on it. Most will never notice it, but strange things will pop up without any knowledge as to why - entitled children for example, or depression from "nowhere" - but it is all okay because our system has plenty of drugs to patch things up and keep us from bothering to hunt down the REAL cure. System dependency.

Although this discussion focused very narrowly on a huge issue, my discussion of it is simply that, a discussion and doesn't show MY personality or outlook on real life. Most who know me personally consider me one of the most positive people they have ever met - said to my face more than once - doesn't mean I am ignore how things flow in the world. I'd say if things are going great I couldn't pull the "news" at any given second and see these headlines:

Sexting teen convicted of child porn
Use of police in N.J. bridge scandal could be illegal
We know it kills: Why people still smoke
When plane went down, he took pics
Vulgar tot's 16-yr-old mom speaks
Twerking teen flash mob robs store

To most, this is simply called "news". To me, it is very obvious symptoms.

BTW, I've never been depressed, never been through family law issues, never been sued, have zero PERSONAL connections to anything in this discussion... my opinion/perspectives are from outsider observation, not from having gone through any of it personally and getting jaded. I see society as a alien/martian might, and it is really, really bizaar how we operate. :)

In the end, I am as much part of the problem as anyone else: I make computers work that helps other build things to replace human's jobs. Not happy about it, but I make my profit, buy cool toys, and live competitively just like everybody else. :) Doesn't mean I can't see the big cause and effect picture.

"Sexting teen convicted of child porn

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that, because I look at this and don't understand why you didn't include how the fire department saved a dozen lives, or how the whole town came to aid the 7 families who lost their houses in the flood. You see... this is "news" too but you clearly choose to disregard....

that good stuff should be NORMAL for everyday life, not "Special" and news worthy.
the stuff I pointed out were symptoms of a problem, that shouldn't exist.

Good stuff is all around you and so is bad stuff. It is, and allways was. But now we have 24 hour news networks that need to fill the air with something.

By the way, I'm quite happy to be 3 hrs away from my family. I wouldn't have it any other way. One of my co-workers moved next door to his in laws. He said it was the worst mistake of his life.

>> the excessive pollution

Much lower today in most areas than it was in the 1970s... next

>> increase in cancers

This is a symptom of how much better the world is getting. The reason we have a significant increase in cancer is that people are living long enough to get cancer. This is the 95% driver of the increase in cancer, healthier people living longer, getting cancer. In the past it was "never getting old enough to get cancer". I know for sure I'd rather die of colon cancer at 95 than a heart attack at 65.

>> obesity

Again, it is better to die of obesity induced diabetes 2 at 85 than of starvation at 5. Today there are more people in the third world suffering from obesity than from starvation. Ask them what they think is better.

>> lower of the value of human life

This is pure balderdash, the value of a single human being has never been higher than it is today. Ever. In the middle ages (some) people had no qualms about slitting your throat for the equivalent of a days meal. In England, for a while, they had capital punishment for pick pocketing.

>> depression

This is mostly due to increase in choice and options. A good example is this:

In the 1950s I could go to a store and buy blue jeans. They had blue jeans, one brand, one style, one color (OK, slight exaggeration, but you get the point). Leaving the store I was happy. They didn't quite fit, they were not exactly the color I wanted and the style I felt was best, but they were blue jeans. The ones that existed.

1990, I enter the store, they have 50 different styles multiplied by five brands and 20 different color variations. The jeans I leave the store with are a much better fit than fourty years earlier, they are exactly the color I wanted and the style I wanted. I think. I'm not sure. Perhaps there was another pair in there that was even more perfect, but I didn't find it. I leave the store slightly dissatisfied since I am not sure I got what I wanted.

One reason for depression is that some people seem not to be wired for a better life with more choice. I don't think the solution is to limit choice.

When we run low on oil (we'll probably never run out it will become prohibitively expensive before we do) things will be more difficult, but there are many solutions to that in the world today or just on the horizon. It'll be a transition but a manageable one. Nothing to worry too much over unless you are the CEO of Exxon.

1/ Mental disorders - they are symptoms of a better world - see earlier post. Also, when you are desperate to try to find food to survive, the last thing you do is to worry about your worries. It's a luxury disease and a symptom of how much better the world is.

2/ Overpopulation - there is none. The worlds population will never again double, and we can handle the size it will stop at (around 10B people) That is, unless we all find a way to live twice as long as we do today, which may be a real issue.

3/ Isolation - this is not a real problem. The reality is that we are more connected, have wide circles of friends and more time for them now than ever before. This one is entirely media created.

4/ Pollution - it is way down in most of the western world, and we can see it in our health. Pollution continues a downward trend in the first world, and the third world is waking to the problem.

5/ Genetically modified foods is the latest scare. There are serious problems with it as it relates to it pushing out existing plants etc, but unless the genetic engineering significantly alters the plant in some way, there is no difference for humans. It is just the latest scare, and it is not to be an issue for the problems you have listed since these have been on the rise since long before there was genetically modified food. The "allergies from genetically modified food" is as dumb as the "autism from vaccines" scare.

6/ We eat too much sugar and salt, but our diet is still better today than it ever was. Seriously, it is. You go back only a handful of decades and in the entire world (first as third) there were significant numbers of malnourished children. It is no longer a problem in the first or third world on the scale it was. You can also see this in infant mortality. Go back to people born prior to WW one, and losing children was the norm. "Every" family would lose one or more children at birth or in the first five years. In the first world that is a seriously rare thing today.

7/ Never before have more people been able to, using their own free will, pursue their happiness. Everybody has more choice, more options, more freedom today than basically anybody used to have. Today we grow up, our options are, while not limitless, with very, very few limits. 100 years and more ago you grew up, you fought a handful of years not to die, and then you lost the battle. You had zero choice. Clearly, abundant options makes some people uncomfortable, but that is the minority, not the majority. I will trade having options for my life with being locked into a fast track to an early death any day. An early death here is defined as something like in my 40s a handful of years ago, down to 18-20 in the stone age. Our lifes have NEVER before been filled with purpose of our own selection to the level it is today.

>> I'd rather everyone get tons of exercise growing their own food, be happy,
>> fulfilled, content, and have prupose, than go to work, get paid a lot to buy a
>> bunch of stuff then feel depressed, and discontented the next week, but
>> that is just me.

Google "false dichotomy". The options available are you grown your own food, you struggle, you starve, only three of your five children reach puberty, you die of old age in your late thirties early forties. Or you live a modern lifestyle, you have three kids and they all reach old age, as do you. You are romanticizing what was a horrific situation for all involved compared to what life is like today. It is common in people who live far removed from the nature they claim to love.

The affliction displayed here is far more common in the US than in my home country (I have lived long in both). The main reason is that people, particular in urban areas, simply have no interaction with nature in its natural state anymore. If they did, they'd know that nature is hell bent on killing you as fast as it can.

A US girl once asked me about organically grown food, she really wanted to buy that, but she'd heard that in order for it to grow properly the farmers threw large amounts of feces on it and in the ground it grows. I could inform her that this was indeed the case. Her grown food had grown up basically consuming feces. That turned her off organically grown food. I laughed and asked her if she thought birds and squirrels take their dumps in toilets in the woods. All food, organically grown or not, has at one stage or another been covered with some animal feces.

It is my personal opinion that all children should learn how to find their food, kill it and prepare it at young age. If nothing else, a fish, but small mammals are better. It teaches them things that shopping at Walmart never can. For example that, in most cases, finding enough food to feed your self is seriously hard work, and without a ton of modern tools, near impossible.

>> Yes. It is called the oceans. Many island nations are already starting to disappear

Again, this simply isn't true. I know it is fun for the media to claim it is so, but it is a huge lie, and the fact that a country like Tuvalu is allowed to bring a law-suit to countries that are releasing high amounts of CO2 into the air (CO2 is NOT a pollutant, but it does contribute to global warming) due to the fact that they are dropping into the ocean is absurd.

The water in the oceans have not yet risen enough to make a difference one way or the other. Some islands are sinking into the ocean as you point out, but other places, like Finland, are rising out of the ocean rather quickly. Jetties that in th 1950s were in the ocean in Finland can now be 50-60 meter (yards) inland.

There is currently only a single thing that makes the sea level rise to the point where it is a problem for Tuvalu and other island nations and that is the fact that the location on which they sit is dropping into the earth core. They are not experiencing sea level rise, they are experiencing crust level subsiding. Blaming CO2 and the first world for plate tectonics is a little far fetched.

>> Getting wetter in another part of the world wouldn't help me here in Australia

This is correct, and global warming will probably lead to displacement and people moving around the world, but then again, that's not something new, is it? There are millions of people in Australia already who didn't originate there.

>> If the arctic cap melts and places New York under water as a result

Just for the record, if the arctic cap melts (it seems to be doing so) the sea level will rise with exactly zero millimeters (fractions of inches for the Americans). On the other hand, if the antarctic cap melts, we'll be in a spot of trouble.

Remember, the arctic cap is ice floating in water and according to Archimedes, its melting will not contribute to the rise of the sea level.