Writing DVD's that will work

Comments

craftech wrote on 4/28/2006, 10:54 AM
After upgrading to the NEC 3550A, am I going to have to go ahead and do the firmware upgrade in order to region unlock it?
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Probably, but I can't assure you that it won't change the compatability of the discs at the same time. Read through the Newegg user reviews and through this.

John
LeslieD wrote on 5/3/2006, 2:39 PM
When you burn the disc, the burn speed will make a difference depending upon the media and the burner. I would use DVDA for burning. I forgot to ask you which media you were using (the ID code on the disc that is).

Post that information when you find out and one of us can probably recommend a burn speed.

Taiyo Yuden TYG02 8X
LeslieD wrote on 5/3/2006, 2:42 PM
After reading all the reviews at the links you sent me too, I decided to go ahead and upgrade to the NEC 3550A. So hopefully that will help! Thanks again!
craftech wrote on 5/3/2006, 5:30 PM
When you burn the disc, the burn speed will make a difference depending upon the media and the burner. I would use DVDA for burning. I forgot to ask you which media you were using (the ID code on the disc that is).

Post that information when you find out and one of us can probably recommend a burn speed.
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Taiyo Yuden TYG02 8X
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That's about the best there is available today. Since you are replacing your burner with an NEC 3550 I would burn it at 4X.

Also, try rendering the Mpeg 2 video stream at a CBR of 8,000,000 bps and a DC Coefficient of 10 instead of 9 before you author the DVD.

John
LeslieD wrote on 5/4/2006, 9:25 AM
Also, try rendering the Mpeg 2 video stream at a CBR of 8,000,000 bps and a DC Coefficient of 10 instead of 9 before you author the DVD.

I remembered that you had mentioned that the other day. I followed those directions to a T yesterday when I tried burning...seems to have worked good, but I need to check how it plays on those two set DVD players. I will let you know and the new burner once I get it installed.

Thanks for all the great advice.
Maestro wrote on 5/4/2006, 10:45 AM
Here's what I've recently found:

I've always been of the mind that slower burn speeds produce more compatible discs. Therefore, when I upgraded to a Pioneer 108 and TY 8x DVD-R media, the slowest speed the burner would let me burn on was 4X. So I printed over 1000 discs at that speed. Didn't have many come back either. So life was good.

There's two programs out there I know of that'll benchmark a burned disc and check its quality: Nero CDSpeed and DVDInfoPro. Interesting. So I decided to do an extensive test of burn speeds and even if burning first or printing the label first (I'm using full-color thermal retransfer) made a difference. Here's what I found out:

Burning the media at 8x produced the most errors (quality=35).
Burning the media at 4x produced the second most (quality=70).
Burning the media at 6x produced the least by far (quality=96).

Those results were consistent for several discs and on my standalone duplicator as well which uses Pioneer 109 burners. Burning the disc first seemed to produce slightly better discs than labeling first, but the results were inconsistent enough that I call it inconclusive. The quality did definitely drop though once the disc was labeled, it never stayed the same as an unlabeled disc.

So my thoughts have always been of the mind that slower burns means the laser has more time to scribe the dye on the disc and therefore produces a cleaner burn. But my results would suggest otherwise. I believe now that it's a combination of the media and the burner. Every brand is going to act a bit differently. Maybe in the case of the Pioneer/TY combination, the burn benefited from the laser burning slightly hotter at 6x to "pit" the dye.

For anyone who produces these in large quantities, I'd recommend burning off a few discs to check for yourself. I also know the CDSpeed utility isn't the end-all, know-all of compatibility, but it's a start.

Interesting, but slower isn't necessarily better.

-Brent
Jayster wrote on 5/4/2006, 10:55 AM
It would be interesting to know how the quality tradeoffs for different labeling schemes compare (i.e. unlabeled vs. light scribe vs. direct inking vs. stick-on label).
LeslieD wrote on 6/5/2006, 1:40 PM
I did buy the NEC 3550 A and things seem to be working better. But now I am working on a project for a wedding in the Netherlands and am also taking another DVD with me to show when I go to the Netherlands. I do no know if I need a firmware upgrade in order for these burnt DVD's to work in the Netherlands. Currently I have the region 0 selected on my burner,etc. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks!
Leslie
Chienworks wrote on 6/5/2006, 3:18 PM
The region setting for your drive is for playing back commercial DVDs. DVD Architect always burns region-free DVDs that can be played back anywhere.
ScottW wrote on 6/5/2006, 5:46 PM
Jayster,

I would avoid stick on labels. SOme DVD players will not play DVD's with labels applied. In addition, the label will expand and contract based on the humidity of the air, causing the DVD to flex and potentially causing the DVD to delaminate, rendiering it unplayable. Labels can also peel; peeling labels can cause problems with your player.

Light Scribe - only one color; may fade if exposed to sunlight.
riredale wrote on 6/5/2006, 10:17 PM
I've had very good success with full-face labels, though I will agree that they tend to cause an increase in the "PIE" error rate as shown by Nero CD/DVD Drivespeed.

I need to rephrase that: a full-face label will tend to cause an increase in the PIE rate on the outer 20% of a full DVD. Still, I've learned that the increase is LESS than what I was usually getting when burning to my old Ritek G05 blanks WITHOUT labels. Also, the PIE rate is still within the DVD spec, and the all-important PIF number hasn't changed.

Why do I continue to use labels? Because I love the gloss finish and the light and water-fastness of my label/Epson pigment ink combination. Just be sure to use a premium DVD blank--I've switched to Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD-R blanks ($.35 each in quantities of 100).

As to whether the adhesive will fail some day, well sure, I guess it could some day. But I have old burned CDs with adhesive labels that are doing well, and they are approaching 10 years in age. No evidence whatsoever of any delamination.
LeslieD wrote on 6/6/2006, 4:10 PM
Thanks Chienworks! I appreciate you telling me that...I have been a bit concerned about these DVD playing in the Netherlands since it is for a once in a lifetime deal...Talk about applying the pressure!!!

Thanks again for the reassurance!
Leslie
farss wrote on 6/7/2006, 6:55 AM
Just one thought in case no one's mentioned it.
It could well be that thhe player you're having problems with is the problem.
As the laser in a DVD player slowly dies the first thing to suffer is playing DVD-ROMs, then pressed DVDs become problematic and finally no DVDs will play although CDs will still play.

Reason for the latter is to play a CD the player uses a different laser.
Reason for the former is that DVD-ROMs are less reflective than pressed media.

I've had several set top DVD players fade away and all have gone this way. Last one I wasted a day trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.....

Bob.
LeslieD wrote on 6/7/2006, 9:03 AM
Thanks for the heads up! But I still think it is something that I am doing wrong because I have tried giving it to friends to see if they can play it on their players and they can't. But I do have to say that the reliability of my DVD's have gone up since I purchased the new DVD RW Drive.

Also, I am needing to send this DVD in for duplication (need to order them by the 100's). How do you suggest I master this DVD. I really want it to be able to be played on both set players and computers.
Suggestions?

Thanks a bunch!
Leslie
craftech wrote on 6/7/2006, 10:36 AM
Leslie,
If I have been following this correctly you have rendered an Mpeg 2 at a CBR of 8,000,000 bps and a DC Coefficient of 10 using the DVDA NTSC video template followed by the AC3 audio template that matches it.
Rendered to the same folder you authored a DVD in DVDA 3.0 and did NOT choose "optomize" which would have caused the Mpeg 2 file to be recompressed by DVDA.
Your subsequent DVD folder contained Video and Audio TS folders that were around say 4.3 GB or less. In other words your disc wasn't full right to the edge.
You burned your TYG02 disc at 4X using DVDA.

If all of the above is correct try changing the burn speed and doing subsequent tests on various DVD players. Try 2X and then 8X. If that doesn't work try 1X if it will allow it.

You need to get a disc to submit as a master that you know for a fact is extremely compatible. You will only know that by testing. You can also consider buying a cheap touchy DVD player to keep at home for the sole purpose of testing DVDs. I have a Cyberhome player that I bought for that purpose at Walmart. I figure if the DVD plays on that it will play on anything. Philips is also another crap brand of player.

John
riredale wrote on 6/7/2006, 10:49 AM
Leslie:

I don't see how the disk won't play in some players.
Google and download a copy of "Nero CD-DVD Speed." It will work with the NEC burner. Put in a master DVD and run the test under the "Disk Quality" tab. It should come back looking very good, with scores in in the 90's. If not, get a different DVD brand and try again.

If it looks good and still doesn't play in some players, then I would suspect the authoring program. I don't use DVD-A, so I can't offer any further advice.

Incidentally, a previous comment suggested getting a cheap DVD player to see if your disk plays on it. In my experience, the cheap players are much more compatible than the expensive players, or at least that's the way it was 2 years ago. In my distributions of hundreds of DVDs to choir families, the only complaints I received about playability came from high-income households. They were early adopters of DVD technology and had older and very expensive (when new) DVD players. These machines were happy with pressed disks but intolerant of the newer burned ones. By contrast, it appeared to me that the cheapo Apex-type players (we have three in this house, one right here at my workstation) used off-the-shelf DVD mechanisms originally meant for PC use. They will play anything.
craftech wrote on 6/7/2006, 12:26 PM
Incidentally, a previous comment suggested getting a cheap DVD player to see if your disk plays on it. In my experience, the cheap players are much more compatible than the expensive players, or at least that's the way it was 2 years ago. In my distributions of hundreds of DVDs to choir families, the only complaints I received about playability came from high-income households. They were early adopters of DVD technology and had older and very expensive (when new) DVD players. These machines were happy with pressed disks but intolerant of the newer burned ones. By contrast, it appeared to me that the cheapo Apex-type players (we have three in this house, one right here at my workstation) used off-the-shelf DVD mechanisms originally meant for PC use. They will play anything.
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Apex was the exception. Some really bad brands are GE Digital (such as the GE1106P) and several models by GoDigital, Balance, Philips, Aspire, Mishine, and scores of others. Find a bad one on the lists that is cheap and pick it up for the torture tests.

John

Edit: I have the perfect Cheap Bad Player for you: The Cyberhome CH-DVD 300. It is purportedly available for as little as $20 now. More bad reviews.
mrBun wrote on 6/7/2006, 7:46 PM
I am almost embarassed to be writing this here in the presence of so many informed souls as I am also fairly new to the game....but;
When I was using DVD architect to burn my DVDs, I made heaps of coasters, and like you, tried every type of media, did innumerable re-installs, threw a pinch of salt over my right shoulder whilst standing on one leg, and prayed to the god of hell and fire to please let me get my DVDs burnt successfully.

Now, I use Vegas to edit/render my work, DVD Architect to prepare my DVDs, and then I burn the suckers in Nero.
I rarely have a DVD fail on me
My output goes to trade fairs globally (I am rendering a piece for a trade show in Macau as I write this)
Forgive me if I blaspheme the holy name of Sony, but DVD Architect and I have a terrible history together.
I think it sucks Royal swamp water when it comes to burning my product.
But as an authoring tool, I swear by it and will continue to buy the Vegas+DVD Architect package at every upgrade.

I just don't trust it for burning reliably.
craftech wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:22 PM
When I was using DVD architect to burn my DVDs, I made heaps of coasters, and like you, tried every type of media, did innumerable re-installs, threw a pinch of salt over my right shoulder whilst standing on one leg, and prayed to the god of hell and fire to please let me get my DVDs burnt successfully.

Now, I use Vegas to edit/render my work, DVD Architect to prepare my DVDs, and then I burn the suckers in Nero.
I rarely have a DVD fail on me
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Maybe the program didn't work well with your particular burner. I have ued a Pioneer 104 and a 105 with DVDA and both have burned flawless discs. My duplicator is filled with NEC 3240a burners.
I also used Record Now Max 4.5 for burning. Also works flawlessly. The only problems with burning I have had have been with Nero and Roxio programs. To each his own.
John
mrBun wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:47 PM
"Maybe the program didn't work well with your particular burner.
The only problems with burning I have had have been with Nero and Roxio programs. To each his own.
John "

I couldn't agree more...However, I just need to get my work out the door. And this method does it for me.
I haven't had to spend money, trialing the perfect burner...I just switched the way I burnt my media.

Cost to me $0.00

However, I am not technically inclined which is why I bow to the superior minds in this forum...I have learnt a good amount of info here.
There is also the possibility that DVD Architect has matured as a program over time and is now utterly perfect in every way.
I just need to work, and can't afford to lose time experimenting in an area where I am out of my depth.
Chienworks wrote on 6/8/2006, 4:36 AM
DVDA 2 rarely burned usable DVDs for me so i used Nero. DVDA 3 rarely burns a coaster. On the other hand, i still like to use Nero when i'm not in a rush because it has a verify pass after burning. It's a nice extra bit of security.
plasmavideo wrote on 6/8/2006, 6:57 AM
Thanks for the info. I had not used the Nero tool to check quality on my burned discs, so I did check last night.

Using a Pioneer AO7 with Mitsumi discs, a hi grade "professional quality" non branded pack purchsed from Tape Central (I forgot to write down the ID number from Nero) and burned with DVDA 3, the results from previously burned discs at 4X were:

Quality 98
Quality 99
Quality 98

Tonight I'll check the same setup and burn some at 8X. I've had very good results so far, and that Nero test explains why. I'll post those results and the exact ID of the discs. I also have a pack of Maxells, and I'll try one of those.
riredale wrote on 6/8/2006, 8:30 AM
One of the things I find so fascinating about all this DVD stuff is the fact that we're sorta on the edge here in several ways. The DVD standards writers assumed that DVDs would return tons of errors, which is why they went to great lengths to include error-correction processes on multiple levels. A typical DVD may give thousands of read errors but they all get magically patched before the data stream leaves the box and no one is the wiser.

Even a really crummy DVD that is simply unplayable can usually be copied and cloned using something like DVD Decrypter or Nero into a fresh disk that plays perfectly. The trick is that the cloning program slows the drive way down when necessary and takes multiple reads of the bad area, finally assembling a usable error-free image.
johnmeyer wrote on 6/8/2006, 11:42 AM
The trick is that the cloning program slows the drive way down when necessary and takes multiple reads of the bad area, finally assembling a usable error-free image.

Yes, and if you have a really bad disk, there are several utilities that can perform magic and extract all the information, although they sometimes take several hours to run. I think DVDInfo has the advanced copy features, although I can't remember for sure.