Writing DVD's that will work

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 6/8/2006, 12:13 PM
I came across a program named CD Roller that has some advanced reading and error correcting procedures. I've had a few discs that other utilities reported as blank or corrupted that CD Roller was able to recover. Even some fairly ugly scratches didn't stop it. One DVD recovery took about 16 hours, but so what? I got all the data back and that was what mattered.

It also works great when clients send you discs that aren't closed or finalized.

I think it was about $30 (US), and they even gave me a free version upgrade! Can't beat that price.
LeslieD wrote on 6/8/2006, 3:38 PM
If I have been following this correctly you have rendered an Mpeg 2 at a CBR of 8,000,000 bps and a DC Coefficient of 10 using the DVDA NTSC video template followed by the AC3 audio template that matches it.
Rendered to the same folder you authored a DVD in DVDA 3.0 and did NOT choose "optomize" which would have caused the Mpeg 2 file to be recompressed by DVDA.
Your subsequent DVD folder contained Video and Audio TS folders that were around say 4.3 GB or less. In other words your disc wasn't full right to the edge.
You burned your TYG02 disc at 4X using DVDA

If all of the above is correct try changing the burn speed and doing subsequent tests on various DVD players. Try 2X and then 8X. If that doesn't work try 1X if it will allow it.
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You have been following correctly. I have been burning my DVD projects just like you said earlier....I did try burning the project at all different speeds today, so I will check those tonight to see which ones work. My project is a promotional video, so it is only 4 minutes long (277.8MB) So I am definately not close to these edge there. Also, I am considering buying a crap player to be my tester. Thanks for the advice.
LeslieD wrote on 6/8/2006, 3:57 PM
I don't see how the disk won't play in some players.
Google and download a copy of "Nero CD-DVD Speed." It will work with the NEC burner. Put in a master DVD and run the test under the "Disk Quality" tab. It should come back looking very good, with scores in in the 90's. If not, get a different DVD brand and try again.

If it looks good and still doesn't play in some players, then I would suspect the authoring program.
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I tried buring my DVD's at different speeds today (1X, 4X, 6X) and after running the test under "disk quality" on the Nero CD-DVD Speed, I received a quality rating of 97 on all of them. Tonight I will check them on my DVD players. I am considering burning and/or authoring my DVD's in a different program other than DVDA. Possibly Nero...
johnmeyer wrote on 6/8/2006, 4:06 PM
I tried buring my DVD's at different speeds today (1X, 4X, 6X) and after running the test under "disk quality" on the Nero CD-DVD Speed, I received a quality rating of 97 on all of them

Not too surprising. Nothing is true all the time, but usually if the speed is within the rating of both the drive and media, setting it lower just simply lets you kill more time playing solitaire.

The media and then the drive (in that order) are about 80% of the whole equation. It is possible that some older burning or authoring software (two different things) might contribute to the problem, but bad burning software usually just simply fails to recognize your burner, and bad authoring software usually results in screwy navigation. In both cases, if the disc burns, it should probably play, assuming you are able to navigate to a section of the DVD that has program material.

So, in summary, concentrate on the media, and then on the burner.

I can't remember if I mentioned earlier in the thread (and I'll be darned if I'm going to go back and re-read it all), but this site has lots of good tips that relate to your quest:

DigitalFAQ
LeslieD wrote on 6/9/2006, 12:31 PM
If I have been following this correctly you have rendered an Mpeg 2 at a CBR of 8,000,000 bps and a DC Coefficient of 10 using the DVDA NTSC video template followed by the AC3 audio template that matches it.
Rendered to the same folder you authored a DVD in DVDA 3.0 and did NOT choose "optomize" which would have caused the Mpeg 2 file to be recompressed by DVDA.
Your subsequent DVD folder contained Video and Audio TS folders that were around say 4.3 GB or less. In other words your disc wasn't full right to the edge.
You burned your TYG02 disc at 4X using DVDA

I did try burning the project at all different speeds today, so I will check those tonight to see which ones work.
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I tested the above DVD's and they worked like a dream!!! I am so happy...(if you have been following this thread, you know that I have been fighting this for several months....UGH!!!!) YEA!!! Thanks to everyone for helping me. All the suggestions have helped me to learn this program much better. Now, I am using GOOD media, I have a better DVD burner, I understand how to render my projects....just to mention a few! So like I said....THANKS A BUNCH!!!
LeslieD wrote on 6/9/2006, 12:34 PM
I can't remember if I mentioned earlier in the thread (and I'll be darned if I'm going to go back and re-read it all), but this site has lots of good tips that relate to your quest: DigitalFAQ
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I don't blame you...I've had to go back and reread this thread several times....there is a ton of information here!

Thanks for all your help....and your links to informative sites.
craftech wrote on 6/9/2006, 7:45 PM
That's great news Leslie. I am really happy for you. Producing quality playable DVDs is crucial to work in the field of video today and key to the satisfaction one derives from it.

John
plasmavideo wrote on 6/12/2006, 1:23 PM
Well, I finally got around to doing some more testing, and I've come to the conclusion that the old adage "slower burns produce less errors" is not necessarily true.

I'm using a Pioneer A07 and DVDA 3. I did check the disc type, and I'm using Mitsui 83120 8X media.

I burnt several test discs as part of my duplications for a current project at various speeds. Then using Nero DVD speed test I checked the quality of the discs.

The ones burned at 8X showed quality of 98 and 99. The ones burned at 6X both came back as 99, but the ones burned at 4X tested as 95 and 97. In this case, with this burner and media, a slightly lower speed, 6X, looks to be the best speed with the rated 8X about equal.

I also tested some off the shelf Maxell 8X that I happened to have. The results mirrored the Mitsui with the difference that the overall quality rating was lower, averaging about 97. The best burn speed was 6X, just like the Mitsui.

So far, I've had no one report back that these discs did not play in any desktop machine, but I'll know more this week when a lot more get out.

Tom
johnmeyer wrote on 6/12/2006, 2:48 PM
Tom,

I can "ditto" just about every point you made, based on my own testing. Your points are also backed up by testing that quite a few others have reported, both here and in other forums.

The lower burn speed = higher quality myth probably had some basis in reality at some point in time, with a given set of burners and media. Also, some really cheap CD burners, especially when coupled with cheap media, would cause the media to vibrate horrendously when spun at higher speeds, which would then, of course, increase the burn error rates. With a good burner and good media, you should burn as fast as you can, although I still recommend that EVERYONE do their own tests, with their own burner and media, just to make sure. As you have found, it takes virtually no time and costs nothing when you have to make multiple copies anyway, especially if you have a second DVD burner/reader that you can use to actually do the test.

BTW, the read error tests are highly dependent on the unit that you use for the reading. Don't ever try to compare error rates that you get on one DVD burner/reader with results you get on another. The only thing that is useful is the relative information.
LeslieD wrote on 6/22/2006, 9:21 AM
Yet another question...I was wondering, typically is there anything in specific that tends to cause a DVD to glitch (mainly audio, some video glitching, it never glitches in the same place). For example, could that be caused by my burning speed, a old DVD player that is about to give out, etc? Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Leslie
craftech wrote on 6/22/2006, 3:54 PM
...I was wondering, typically is there anything in specific that tends to cause a DVD to glitch (mainly audio, some video glitching, it never glitches in the same place). For example, could that be caused by my burning speed, a old DVD player that is about to give out, etc? Any thoughts?
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Can you be more specific Leslie? What kind of glitch? Is it also on the Vegas timeline, or the Mpeg 2, or just on the authored DVD?
Is it an audio "flatline" that you can zoom in on the timeline for example?

John
LeslieD wrote on 6/22/2006, 4:48 PM
Can you be more specific Leslie? What kind of glitch? Is it also on the Vegas timeline, or the Mpeg 2, or just on the authored DVD?
Is it an audio "flatline" that you can zoom in on the timeline for example?
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I am going to have to look into that. I want to say that it is only on the authored DVD because I have never noticed much of a problem when I am working on it in Vegas. Also, it is never in the same place...and it only "glitches" on certain DVD players. In fact, I have about decided that one of these players is just too old and it doesn't like burned DVD's because even my best DVD's that seem to work on perfectly on other players and computers, doesn't work correctly on that player.

Back to if there are any glitches when I am in Vegas...when I am playing a prerendered vegas project that I am working on, the preview is VERY glitchy. By these glitches I am talking about people's voices going on while the picture freezes, people's mouth's don't move with the words, etc. But I have always assumed, this is normal (Although, it seems a little odd for a project as small as the one I am doing (4 min, 252MB, 13 track Vegas project). But once I render the project, if I try to view it in Vegas these glitches are completely gone.

When previewing before writing the DVD in DVD A., I see a few glitches (flickering in people's faces, smooth lines are replaced with jagged but that happens pretty rarely)

But the kind of glitches I am seeing on this DVD player and a few others is: audio stoping for a few seconds, flickering in people's faces a few so bad that they make smooth lines in people's faces turn into jagged, and sometimes the video just stops and says that it cannot be read. If the DVD stops and you restart it, it will play some of the time.

I have run the NERO DVD Speed tests on all these DVD's and they are all getting a quality score of 95-97.

I hope this helps! Thanks for helping me.

Leslie

This specific project is for my own business and I am just about ready to send it in to be duplicated...I just want to feel confident that it will work, and since I am pretty new at video editing I guess I don't know what to expect. THANKS AGAIN for your help.
farss wrote on 6/22/2006, 5:55 PM
In very general terms the biggest cause of these problems are dying DVD players, sometimes running a cleaning disk in them will extract a little more life out of the player.

Second issue to watch out for is extreme jumps in the bitrate, I've been badly caught by this one. Make certain your minimum bitrate is no less the 1/3 your maximum. Also watch the maximum bitrate, encoders tend to treat the setting the way most drivers respect the speed limit, the odd burst over the limit is Ok, right? So I tend to keep it no more than 7.5Mb/sec with PCM audio, with ac3 you can afford to go a bit higher but for safety I still keep it to 8Mb/sec.

Bob.
craftech wrote on 6/22/2006, 6:37 PM
Also, it is never in the same place...and it only "glitches" on certain DVD players............But the kind of glitches I am seeing on this DVD player and a few others is: audio stoping for a few seconds, flickering in people's faces a few so bad that they make smooth lines in people's faces turn into jagged, and sometimes the video just stops and says that it cannot be read. If the DVD stops and you restart it, it will play some of the time.
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It wouldn't be in the same place all the time necessarily if the disc isn't being read properly by the players.
If you said it was only one of the players I would say that maybe it is the player, but because you said it was on several players I think it is the disc. If this is a promotional DVD I wouldn't send it out for duplication in that condition.

With a CBR of 8,000,000 and a DC Coefficient of 10 your Mpeg 2 should be as good as it gets. If you are also saying that there are no glitches in the rendered Mpeg 2 video when you play it back then I would suspect the problem is happening in DVDA , but I am not 100% sure.

List the players that won't play it properly and I'll look them up to be on the safe side.

AND

Try rendering to an avi file first instead of rendering directly to Mpeg 2 from the timeline. Then put the rendered avi up on the timeline and render to Mpeg 2 using the same settings as above, and author it again in DVDA.
If the quality doesn't look good enough (but it ends up really really compatible) render it to Huffyuv. Post back if you don't know how, but only if the video quality is noticeably reduced by the two-step process.

John
rs170a wrote on 6/22/2006, 6:44 PM
...and a DC Coefficient of 10...

John, I read the (very brief) blurb on this but it's still somewhat confusing.
Can you go into a bit more detail as to why 10 is better than 9? Should this increase always be part of a new template? Thanks.

Mike
craftech wrote on 6/22/2006, 7:00 PM
...and a DC Coefficient of 10...

John, I read the (very brief) blurb on this but it's still somewhat confusing.
Can you go into a bit more detail as to why 10 is better than 9? Should this increase always be part of a new template? Thanks.
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I always use 10 and Yes it is part of several templates I have created and use. The DC Coefficient regulates the discrete cosine values used in the video image compression. The program will then eliminate the visually irrelevant frequencies. The same thing is used in the compression of Jpeg images. The higher the value the better the quality.

John
rs170a wrote on 6/22/2006, 7:09 PM
The DC Coefficient regulates the discrete cosine values used in the video image compression. The program will then eliminate the visually irrelevant frequencies.

Say what?? Sounds like what I hear at some of my SMPTE meetings :-)

The higher the value the better the quality.

That I understand. Thanks.

Mike
farss wrote on 6/22/2006, 7:15 PM
Interesting and kind of getting off topic however this might involve a tradeoff.
Wouldn't that consume more bandwidth which would be fine for static / low noise / smooth footage but run the risk of introducing more motion artifacts otherwise.

If that's the case it'd be really cool if we could dynamically control this setting.

Or else I'm really wide of the mark.

Bob.
craftech wrote on 6/22/2006, 7:58 PM
Interesting and kind of getting off topic however this might involve a tradeoff.
Wouldn't that consume more bandwidth which would be fine for static / low noise / smooth footage but run the risk of introducing more motion artifacts otherwise.

If that's the case it'd be really cool if we could dynamically control this setting.

Or else I'm really wide of the mark.

Bob.
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Bob,
I tried to find an answer to that question, but couldn't find an instance where the problem was raised anywhere that I looked. I can tell you that using that setting I don't get motion artifacts at all, just the usuall slight blurring that is normal.

John
farss wrote on 6/23/2006, 2:31 AM
I'm assuming that the DC offset has the same effect as the 'quality' setting for JPEG compression. Higher quality = bigger file size. To test if it has an impact on motion artifacts / macroblocking the test would be to encode something that was causing macroblocking at say 9 and then compare it to encoding at 10. If I get a chance I'll try it on something like pure video noise.

This is quite interesting as my understanding is that this is part of the magic of wavelet compression, if things get too complex to encode losslessly then reduce the resolution.

So in theory for very low bitrates it might be better to lower this qualty slider, yes?

Bob.
LeslieD wrote on 6/23/2006, 9:29 AM
List the players that won't play it properly and I'll look them up to be on the safe side.

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Actually we aready did this. The main player that I am having a problem with is the one you looked up for me earlier on this thread. Below is what you found.
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Sony CD DVD Player DVP S300

Here is a media compatibility list for that unit. It's not that bad at all. If you get this all straightened out you should have no problems playing your DVDs on that unit.
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I have had some problems with my DVD's playing at all on other players...when I send them home with friends that want to see it, but don't have the information at my fingertips what kind of DVD player those are. Also, that was a few discs ago....I seem to learn a little each time and they work a little better each time.

I burned a few more last night at a slower speed (2X, Quality 97) and they all worked perfectly...one DVD had one glitch, but it wasn't bad. Maybe I stumbled upon something here....I don't know. Would it be a bad decision to send these in for duplication?

I am leaning toward thinking that it is just that player...On this thread, many people have said that the first thing to go is the players ability to play DVD R discs. Also, I remember somebody mentioning that they have had a hard time with players that were purchased when DVD technology was newer and were the more expensive players....This player is 8 years old, and I think it might fit in that category....But I am not sure.

Thanks for the help!
Leslie

craftech wrote on 6/23/2006, 1:04 PM
I burned a few more last night at a slower speed (2X, Quality 97) and they all worked perfectly...one DVD had one glitch, but it wasn't bad. Maybe I stumbled upon something here....I don't know. Would it be a bad decision to send these in for duplication?
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Let them give you a sample of YOUR video to test first and then a guarantee that those discs that follow will play as well as the test sample.

You also may want to consider burning them all yourself at 2x if that works for the disc.

How many discs are we talking about here and how much are they going to charge you? It may be cheaper to build your own duplicator as some of us have done.

Despite those that claim burn speed is irrelevant I have not found that to be the case in my experience. You have also seen that for yourself. My discs also seem to play in most players including an 7 year old Toshiba SD-1600. It is old enough not to play re-writeable discs, but it plays the DVD-Rs I make flawlessly.

In terms of some of the other glitches you described when using your PC to preview that disappear after you render, I suspect that you have too many processes running at the same time on your computer. Many of us use a separate computer for video editing and another one for the other stuff. One of the things I hate about Windows XP is that it is an unnessary resource hog.

John
LeslieD wrote on 6/23/2006, 1:41 PM
Let them give you a sample of YOUR video to test first and then a guarantee that those discs that follow will play as well as the test sample.
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For sure, I will request a sample so that I can check and make sure that they work prior to getting the whole batch done. That would be a pretty expensive mistake if they didn't work correctly.
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How many discs are we talking about here and how much are they going to charge you? It may be cheaper to build your own duplicator as some of us have done.
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Before the promo video that I created, we had a different one that was put together by a videographer in my town. But then he moved and we needed our promotional DVD to be updated, so I began learning vegas and updating the video. We've been getting our promotional dvd's replicated by cdromtogo.com for $1.99/100 DVD's or $179/250 DVD's with full termal printing on the outside. Of course, the price continues to go down the more DVD's you order at once, but this is the amount we need at this time. Because we need these new DVD's soon, I don't think building my oun DVD duplicator is an option for this batch of DVD's. But my company's promotional DVD's are becoming more in demand, so I will definitely think about building my own duplicator for my future batches.

Questions: How are you guys building your own duplicators? What kind of equipment do you need? Approximately how much do you think it costs to build you own duplicator (just a range)? After building the duplicator, how much do you think I could duplicate my DVD's in house for? I am really interested...

Thanks for the insight!
Leslie

In terms of some of the other glitches you described when using your PC to preview that gp away after you render, I suspect that you have too many processes running at the same time on your computer. Many of us use a separate computer for video editing and another one for the other stuff. One of the things I hate about Windows XP is that it is an unnessary resource hog.
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I was pretty sure that was the case, which is why I haven't mentioned it before. But then again, you never know until you ask the experts, right?
craftech wrote on 6/23/2006, 2:03 PM
We've been getting our promotional dvd's replicated by cdromtogo.com for $1.99/100 DVD's or $179/250 DVD's with full termal printing on the outside.
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That isn't a bad price for printed ones. It also isn't that many to duplicate one at a time if you need them right away, BUT if you don't have a disc printer it is probably better just to let them go ahead and do them.

The duplicator costs several hundred to assemble. I use mine for orders all the time. It consists of 8 NEC 3520A burners.
For information check the following threads:

Here and Here and Here
John