Survey: What min/max levels does your cam shoot?

NickHope schrieb am 17.06.2011 um 11:24 Uhr

I'm keen to build up a list of what black and white levels various cameras are shooting by default, in order to reduce the guesswork when giving guidance about manipulating levels in post production.

I'm hoping to get results for a range of video cameras, dSLRs, Go Pro, phones, etc. etc.. The more devices we get results for, the better.

I am aware that minimum and maximum luminance levels can be adjusted on some cameras, so please set them to default settings as far as possible.

Black footage method: Cover the lens with the lens cap or whatever, close the iris, set gain to zero, set the shutter as fast as possible.

White footage method: Open the iris as wide as possible, set gain to max, set the shutter as slow as possible, remove any ND filters, point camera at sky.

Get the footage on the Vegas timeline, match the project settings to the footage, set pixel format to 8-bit and set preview quality to "Best (full)". Note the levels in the histogram video scope. If you put the cursor over the histogram, you can see the luminance value in yellow at the top right of the video scopes pane. Let's limit the results to the overall luminance (the white histogram) unless there is any wild difference between the R/G/B channels.

Here's the black histogram for my Sony Z1P HDV camera. This shows the minimum black at 17 and the black "peak" at 20:

White histogram for Z1P. White peak at 254. Maximum white at 255. (I have no idea what the secondary peaks are):

Black histogram for my Sony VX2000 DV camera. Minimum black at 13 and the black peak at 17. (Not sure why it's giving me the secondary peak):

White histogram for VX2000. White peak at 253. Maximum white at 254:

Please post the camera make and model, approx year of purchase, video format, minimum black level, black peak level, white peak level, and maximum white level in the following format. Feel free to post screenshots of the histogram too if you have the time and inclination.

Sony VX2000, 2003, DV, min black 17, black peak 20, white peak 254, max white 255.

Sony Z1P, 2006, HDV, min black 13, black peak 17, white peak 253, max white 254.

EDIT: I will maintain the results below as we go along.
EDIT: Note that many hybrid stills/video cameras shoot 0-255 for stills, but a more limited range for video. Please test the video mode.
EDIT: Please add what format your footage was shot in. This is especially important if, for example, it shoots both AVCHD and .mov. If possible, please test both formats since they may well be handled differently in Vegas (see Laurence's posts of 4/28/2014).

Cameras that shoot nominally 16-255

Apple iPhone 5 (JN-)(black actually a bit lower)
Canon XA10 (MikeLV)
Canon Legria HF S100 (Pete Ferg)
Canon Vixia HG21 (amendegw)
Canon Vixia HF G20 (aka Legria HF G25 in Europe)(Lou van Wijhe)
Canon Vixia HF G30 (OldSmoke)
Canon Vixia HF M40 (DaveT2)
Canon Vixia HF M52 (_Lenny_)
JVC GY-HM750 (Tech Diver) -(adjustable pedestal (min black level))
Panasonic AG-AC130 (amendegw)
Panasonic HC-X920 (fifonik)
Panasonic HDC-TM700 (amendegw)
Sony α6600 with Cine1 gamma (RogerS)
Sony α7R III (JN-)(16-255 with picture profile off)
Sony DCR-VX2000 (Nick Hope)
Sony DSC-RX10 IV (john_dennis)
Sony DSC-RX100 III (JN-)(Based on footage. Cam not available)
Sony DSC-TX55 (ritsmer)
Sony FDR-AX53 (frmax)
Sony FDR-AX100 (Rich Parry)
Sony HDR-HC3 (riredale)
Sony HDR-XR520 (PeterDuke)
Sony HVR-A1 (LoTN)
Sony HVR-FX1 (johnmeyer, riredale)
Sony HVR-Z1 (Nick Hope)
Sony HXR-NX70 (Stephen Crye)
Sony NEX-EA50 (malowz)
Sony NEX-FS100 (paul_w)
Sony NEX-FS700 (essami)
Sony SLT-A77 (Udi) - (actually a little darker - see post below)

Cameras that shoot nominally 0-255

Apple iPhone 4 (Grazie)
Canon EOS 5D MkII (farss)
Canon EOS 5D MkIII (JN-)
Canon EOS 70D* (malowz)(other settings can be created with Canon Picture Style Editor)
Canon EOS 80D (john_dennis)
Canon IXUS 510 HS (JN-)
Canon IXUS 900 Ti (JN-)
Canon IXUS V3 (JN-)
Canon Powershot G9 (john_dennis)
Canon Powershot G15 (john_dennis)
Canon Powershot S90 (JN-)
Dell Streak tablet/phone (Marco.)
GoPro HERO5 Black (Nick Hope)
Kodak PlayTouch (musicvid)
LG Optimus One P500 Android phone (Nick Hope)
Nikon D5100 .mov (Laurence)
Nokia N97 phone (JN-)
Panasonic HC-X1500E (diverG)
Panasonic HC-X2000E (diverG)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 .mov (musicvid)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX80 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ100 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZX7 (JN-)
Samsung Galaxy II (megabit)
Samsung Galaxy S10 phone (JN-)
SN9C01 webcam (farss)
Sony DSC-RX100 IV (JN-)(Based on footage. Cam not available)
Sony DSC-RX100 V (JN-)(black at 7, not 0)

Cameras that shoot nominally 16-235

Apple iPhone 7 HEVC (Nick Hope)
Apple iPhone 8 HEVC (Nick Hope)
DJI OSMO (Nick Hope)
Huawei Mate 9 phone (Nick Hope)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 AVCHD (.mts) (Marco.)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 AVCHD (Laurence)
Sony α6500 with Cine3/4 gamma (RogerS)
Sony α6600 with Cine2/3/4 gamma (RogerS)
Sony DSC-RX100 (ritsmer) (Nick Hope's shoots 16-240)

Cameras with selectable levels range

Z-Cam E2 series (limited range recommended)(Howard-Vigorita)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ2500 (wwjd, Nick Hope)(16-235, 16-255 or 0-255)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 (wwjd, Nick Hope)(16-235, 16-255 or 0-255)
Sony PMW-EX1 (farss)

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Kommentare

_Lenny_ schrieb am 29.04.2014 um 19:46 Uhr

It probably won't come as much of a surprise, but the Canon M52 shoots 16-254.

The black I shot was imperfect as I had left the gain up resulting in a fair amount of noise, and it extended a little below 16, but only on the blue channel. Green and red were spot on 16.

Peak white was NOT at 255, but 254.

Laurence schrieb am 03.05.2014 um 15:22 Uhr

>It probably won't come as much of a surprise, but the Canon M52 shoots 16-254.

... At least on a Vegas timeline that's what they appear to be....

musicvid10 schrieb am 03.05.2014 um 17:32 Uhr

Some cameras do 15-254 deliberately, I think, to accommodate the legacy 1-bit rendering shift.

Laurence schrieb am 04.05.2014 um 23:45 Uhr

I still think (know) that the levels on these cameras are mostly 16-235 and Vegas is just stretching them.

Marco. schrieb am 04.05.2014 um 23:56 Uhr

I doubt. We did similar tests at our broadcasting station with different equipment and the conclusion also was most cameras record 16-255 (or 16-254 as 255 is prohibited by BT. 709 for HD-SDI transfer). Also I tested cameras like the Sony Z100 both via Vegas and broadcast equipment and the results about the luma range were identical. Also if a luma range is stretched from 16-235 to 0-255 you can easily proof this via histogram analysis. Also this is the way a camera should work. But where the footroom most often is left for noise processing only, the headroom also is available for overshooting, light sources, specular highlights. To ensure correct reference white reproduction there is a zebra.
By the way – even studio cameras carry luma up to 109 % and its up to the OCP operator which peak level will enter the video switcher and then the transmitter.

GlennChan schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 03:44 Uhr

Yes, the Nikon D5100 is MOV format.

Laurence, what's happening is that the codec used to decode the footage affects the levels. If you right click the clip and go into properties, Vegas will tell you what codec is being used.
Some codecs decode to 16-235 RGB.
Some codecs decode to 0-255 RGB.

This is what I was talking about 3 years ago on 6/27/2011 9:25:04 PM:

It may be more useful to say what default codec Vegas uses to decode footage from that camera.

wwjd schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 04:08 Uhr

Panasonic GH4: 0-255

also selectable: 16-255, 16-235

TeetimeNC schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 11:56 Uhr

>If you right click the clip and go into properties, Vegas will tell you what codec is being used.

Glenn, do we have any control over what codec Vegas is using to decode?

/jerry

musicvid10 schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 14:51 Uhr

The decoder for MOV/h264 changed 'long about Vegas 10.
It's now supposed to be handled with the Vegas AVC codec.
I tested Pro 8 vs. Pro 10 with Nick under essentially identical conditions and we got different levels.
This was obviously some time back.

There is enough chatter on this topic that I think something else may have changed with Vegas 13.

Andy_L schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 18:08 Uhr

"There is enough chatter on this topic that I think something else may have changed with Vegas 13"

Yeah, people's patience! :)

GlennChan schrieb am 22.10.2014 um 18:44 Uhr

Glenn, do we have any control over what codec Vegas is using to decode?

For DV, yes. It's deep in the setting somewhere... you can tell Vegas to use the Microsoft DV AVI codec. (I would not recommend doing this.)

For other formats, you can convert the files outside of Vegas or whatnot.

In practice, I don't think that it would be particularly useful. Life would be so much simpler if Vegas behaved like other NLEs and converted all of the levels for you. (And fading to black will fade to legal black rather than an illegal black, etc. etc.)

The decoder for MOV/h264 changed 'long about Vegas 10.
Very interesting.

That's... unintuitive.

Lou van Wijhe schrieb am 21.04.2015 um 22:49 Uhr

Just to keep this interesting topic alive:

You can add the Canon Vixia HF G20 (AKA Legria HF G25 in Europe) to the 16-255 variety.

Lou

NickHope schrieb am 22.04.2015 um 06:36 Uhr

Done. Thanks Lou.

Rich Parry schrieb am 26.04.2015 um 22:18 Uhr

@Nick,

Below are my results for the Sony AX100 using the 3 codecs the camera supports. The AX100 falls into the 16-255 category of cameras. Note that the XAVC S HD and 4K codecs were identical, but the AVCHD codec had 2 secondary white peaks.

I placed the original video files for this test in my public dropbox if you wish to verify my results. I will keep files available a few days.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ccac5fyxg34v43o/AADKMCw75i2VwzGDvT09R1saa?dl=0

Sony AX100, 2014, AVCHD, min black 17, black peak 17, white peak 255, max white 255 (secondary peaks at 222 and 238)

Sony AX100, 2014, XAVC S HD, min black 17, black peak 17, white peak 255, max white 255

Sony AX100, 2014, XAVC S 4K, min black 17, black peak 17, white peak 255, max white 255

Rich

malowz schrieb am 13.09.2015 um 17:13 Uhr

just got a Canon 70D for photo and some video takes.

by default, the camera is 0-255, like all EOS cameras i believe.

but as we have now the Picture Style Editor, we can make presets to the levels we want.

as it have 3 extra presets, i have the "CineStyle", a "Studio 16-235" and "Studio 16-255".

easy as pie to match the other cameras.

NickHope schrieb am 14.09.2015 um 05:27 Uhr

Thank you Rich and malowz. Results added. Rich, sorry I didn't notice your reply until now.

Tech Diver schrieb am 14.09.2015 um 15:07 Uhr

@Nick,

For your database: My JVC GY-HM750 has an adjustable pedestal (min black level) that ranges from 0 to some higher value (I have not yet measured it). By default, it is set to 16. Max level is 255.

Peter

NickHope schrieb am 06.03.2017 um 19:08 Uhr

Added to first post:

GoPro Hero 5 Black: 0-255
DJI OSMO: 16-235
Huawei Mate 9 phone: 16-233

john_dennis schrieb am 26.03.2017 um 03:21 Uhr

Canon 80D 000-255

Media Info:

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Canon 80D\MVI_8755.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42/avc1/CAEP)
File size                                : 502 MiB
Duration                                 : 1 min 9 s
Overall bit rate                         : 60.2 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L5.1
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames                : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=30
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 1 min 9 s
Bit rate                                 : 59.8 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.481
Stream size                              : 499 MiB (99%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15
Color range                              : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile                           : LC
Codec ID                                 : 40
Duration                                 : 1 min 9 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 256 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 spf)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 2.13 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2016-08-22 19:42:15

john_dennis schrieb am 30.04.2020 um 03:58 Uhr

@NickHope

Add the Sony DSC RX10-IV

16, 255

Black

White

I realize the number of users here that have cameras has declined of late, but Hey!

fifonik schrieb am 30.04.2020 um 05:02 Uhr

Panasonic X920: AVCHD, 16-255

wwaag schrieb am 30.04.2020 um 05:25 Uhr

Panasonic FZ2500

Selectable: 0-255; 16-255; 16-235 I always use full-range.

NickHope schrieb am 30.04.2020 um 10:23 Uhr

Thanks guys. Added those last 3 and restructured the post a bit.

JN- schrieb am 30.04.2020 um 13:21 Uhr

@NickHope Is it really necessary to do the testing the way you suggest?

Since there are basically only 3 discrete categories, plus one that encompasses all 3, even viewing shot video from cameras that you may no longer have access to would broaden the range of contributions.

I have video from some old P&S cameras etc and I dare say it would be possible to figure out which of the 3 categories the video falls into. They would always be shot at default, same for dslrs, as there usually was no other option.

Other users probably have access to video clips, but not the cameras, and so this could broaden the mix.