Survey: What min/max levels does your cam shoot?

NickHope wrote on 6/17/2011, 4:24 AM

I'm keen to build up a list of what black and white levels various cameras are shooting by default, in order to reduce the guesswork when giving guidance about manipulating levels in post production.

I'm hoping to get results for a range of video cameras, dSLRs, Go Pro, phones, etc. etc.. The more devices we get results for, the better.

I am aware that minimum and maximum luminance levels can be adjusted on some cameras, so please set them to default settings as far as possible.

Black footage method: Cover the lens with the lens cap or whatever, close the iris, set gain to zero, set the shutter as fast as possible.

White footage method: Open the iris as wide as possible, set gain to max, set the shutter as slow as possible, remove any ND filters, point camera at sky.

Get the footage on the Vegas timeline, match the project settings to the footage, set pixel format to 8-bit and set preview quality to "Best (full)". Note the levels in the histogram video scope. If you put the cursor over the histogram, you can see the luminance value in yellow at the top right of the video scopes pane. Let's limit the results to the overall luminance (the white histogram) unless there is any wild difference between the R/G/B channels.

Here's the black histogram for my Sony Z1P HDV camera. This shows the minimum black at 17 and the black "peak" at 20:

White histogram for Z1P. White peak at 254. Maximum white at 255. (I have no idea what the secondary peaks are):

Black histogram for my Sony VX2000 DV camera. Minimum black at 13 and the black peak at 17. (Not sure why it's giving me the secondary peak):

White histogram for VX2000. White peak at 253. Maximum white at 254:

Please post the camera make and model, approx year of purchase, video format, minimum black level, black peak level, white peak level, and maximum white level in the following format. Feel free to post screenshots of the histogram too if you have the time and inclination.

Sony VX2000, 2003, DV, min black 17, black peak 20, white peak 254, max white 255.

Sony Z1P, 2006, HDV, min black 13, black peak 17, white peak 253, max white 254.

EDIT: I will maintain the results below as we go along.
EDIT: Note that many hybrid stills/video cameras shoot 0-255 for stills, but a more limited range for video. Please test the video mode.
EDIT: Please add what format your footage was shot in. This is especially important if, for example, it shoots both AVCHD and .mov. If possible, please test both formats since they may well be handled differently in Vegas (see Laurence's posts of 4/28/2014).

Cameras that shoot nominally 16-255

Apple iPhone 5 (JN-)(black actually a bit lower)
Canon XA10 (MikeLV)
Canon Legria HF S100 (Pete Ferg)
Canon Vixia HG21 (amendegw)
Canon Vixia HF G20 (aka Legria HF G25 in Europe)(Lou van Wijhe)
Canon Vixia HF G30 (OldSmoke)
Canon Vixia HF M40 (DaveT2)
Canon Vixia HF M52 (_Lenny_)
JVC GY-HM750 (Tech Diver) -(adjustable pedestal (min black level))
Panasonic AG-AC130 (amendegw)
Panasonic HC-X920 (fifonik)
Panasonic HDC-TM700 (amendegw)
Sony α6600 with Cine1 gamma (RogerS)
Sony α7R III (JN-)(16-255 with picture profile off)
Sony DCR-VX2000 (Nick Hope)
Sony DSC-RX10 IV (john_dennis)
Sony DSC-RX100 III (JN-)(Based on footage. Cam not available)
Sony DSC-TX55 (ritsmer)
Sony FDR-AX53 (frmax)
Sony FDR-AX100 (Rich Parry)
Sony HDR-HC3 (riredale)
Sony HDR-XR520 (PeterDuke)
Sony HVR-A1 (LoTN)
Sony HVR-FX1 (johnmeyer, riredale)
Sony HVR-Z1 (Nick Hope)
Sony HXR-NX70 (Stephen Crye)
Sony NEX-EA50 (malowz)
Sony NEX-FS100 (paul_w)
Sony NEX-FS700 (essami)
Sony SLT-A77 (Udi) - (actually a little darker - see post below)

Cameras that shoot nominally 0-255

Apple iPhone 4 (Grazie)
Canon EOS 5D MkII (farss)
Canon EOS 5D MkIII (JN-)
Canon EOS 70D* (malowz)(other settings can be created with Canon Picture Style Editor)
Canon EOS 80D (john_dennis)
Canon IXUS 510 HS (JN-)
Canon IXUS 900 Ti (JN-)
Canon IXUS V3 (JN-)
Canon Powershot G9 (john_dennis)
Canon Powershot G15 (john_dennis)
Canon Powershot S90 (JN-)
Dell Streak tablet/phone (Marco.)
GoPro HERO5 Black (Nick Hope)
Kodak PlayTouch (musicvid)
LG Optimus One P500 Android phone (Nick Hope)
Nikon D5100 .mov (Laurence)
Nokia N97 phone (JN-)
Panasonic HC-X1500E (diverG)
Panasonic HC-X2000E (diverG)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 .mov (musicvid)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX80 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ100 (JN-)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZX7 (JN-)
Samsung Galaxy II (megabit)
Samsung Galaxy S10 phone (JN-)
SN9C01 webcam (farss)
Sony DSC-RX100 IV (JN-)(Based on footage. Cam not available)
Sony DSC-RX100 V (JN-)(black at 7, not 0)

Cameras that shoot nominally 16-235

Apple iPhone 7 HEVC (Nick Hope)
Apple iPhone 8 HEVC (Nick Hope)
DJI OSMO (Nick Hope)
Huawei Mate 9 phone (Nick Hope)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 AVCHD (.mts) (Marco.)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 AVCHD (Laurence)
Sony α6500 with Cine3/4 gamma (RogerS)
Sony α6600 with Cine2/3/4 gamma (RogerS)
Sony DSC-RX100 (ritsmer) (Nick Hope's shoots 16-240)

Cameras with selectable levels range

Z-Cam E2 series (limited range recommended)(Howard-Vigorita)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ2500 (wwjd, Nick Hope)(16-235, 16-255 or 0-255)
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 (wwjd, Nick Hope)(16-235, 16-255 or 0-255)
Sony PMW-EX1 (farss)

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Comments

JN- wrote on 4/30/2020, 6:33 AM

Example, I no longer have my Canon 5D3 but checking several clips, all show full range 0-255.

Rx 100 M3 = 16-255 Not Available

Rx 100 M4 = 0-255 NA

Canon Ixus 510 HS = 0-255

If that type of entry was acceptable i.e. camera not available, you can add a ~ say to denote such.

NickHope wrote on 4/30/2020, 9:35 AM

@JN- I'm sure many of the results were not done the "strict" way. I've added yours.

Your 2 Canon results are no surprise.

I've put a caveat next to your 2 Sony RX100 results. Those results mean that the nominal levels changed between versions 1, 3 and 4 of that camera. And also, the mk4 would be the only Sony camera listed that shoots 0-255. My mk1 shoots 16-240.

JN- wrote on 4/30/2020, 10:30 AM

@NickHope Ok, I accept that there may be some doubt re: the mk4. So given that we can go with it this way also, I have gone through a few P&S pocket cameras and others over time, i’ll post results when I get the time. I have the Sony RX 100 mk5, so will be interesting to see that also.

JN- wrote on 4/30/2020, 10:54 AM

@NickHope As best I can make out the Sony RX100 MK. 5 is full range 0-255. The black showed at 7.

With point and shoots etc its not possible to do the comprehensive methology.

JN- wrote on 4/30/2020, 11:12 AM

The Panasonic GX80 appears to be 0-255.

JN- wrote on 4/30/2020, 2:46 PM

Panasonic GF1 = full range

Panasonic TZ100 = full range

Canon S90 = full range

Canon iXus v3 = full range

Nokia N97 phone = full range

Samsung S10 phone = full range

iPhone 5 = 16 - 235 ?

Panasonic ZS7 = full range .. Modified entry from ZX7.

Canon Ixus 900 Ti = full range

Sony A7R III = 16-255 with Picture Profile OFF.

NickHope wrote on 5/2/2020, 1:49 AM

@JN- Thanks. I have added those.

Why the question mark after the iPhone 5? Note that Grazie found the iPhone 4 to shoot 0-255.

Also, I can't find the Panasonic ZX7. Are you sure you don't mean ZS7 or LX7?

JN- wrote on 5/2/2020, 3:26 AM

@NickHope My bad, should be Panasonic DMC-ZS7.

? is because I'm unsure, you decide, 3 small video temporarily available for download.

As with some other devices, I have only got media, no device, iPhone5 in this case.

NickHope wrote on 5/2/2020, 5:29 AM

@JN- In the first clip, the sky stays at 255 for a good few seconds. The blacks are around 12-15, and don't look like they would settle below about 9. It's tricky but I would categorize it as 16-255 and will change it to that.

I have a few clips from other iPhones on file (4S, 6S, 6S Plus) and they all look like they are "trying" to be 16-255. HEVC clips I have from the iPhone 7 and 8 is clearly 16-235. I'll add those too.

JN- wrote on 5/2/2020, 5:44 AM

@NickHope Yes, some are not that clear cut, better in this case that you eyeballed and decided.

RogerS wrote on 5/4/2020, 7:50 AM

Sony a6600 (2020), XAVC-S, Cine 2.

Black minimum 13, black peak 20.

I'm a little confused by the whites- is the Vegas histogram tool accurate? In the waveform and RGB parade I see clear plateaus (peaks) at around 92% which is consistent with 235/255. However the histogram has a peak white at 235 and then values beyond that to 245. Blue channel goes to 255 on the histogram tool only. Blacks also start around 16 in the RGB parade.

In Resolve I also see peaks in the low 90% range (don't see an exact #). Blacks look like around 16 in Resolve.

(In Cine 1 I'm getting different white results, up to 255/100%, and in theory it goes to 109% vs 100% for Cine 2, so I think the profile matters for these Sonys.)

Cine 2 left, Cine 1 right

NickHope wrote on 5/5/2020, 12:14 AM

...I'm a little confused by the whites- is the Vegas histogram tool accurate? In the waveform and RGB parade I see clear plateaus (peaks) at around 92% which is consistent with 235/255. However the histogram has a peak white at 235 and then values beyond that to 245. Blue channel goes to 255 on the histogram tool only. Blacks also start around 16 in the RGB parade...

@RogerS The histograms can make a little look like a lot. The values between 235 and 245 are probably just noise. Those value should also be there on the waveform, but less visible.

...(In Cine 1 I'm getting different white results, up to 255/100%, and in theory it goes to 109% vs 100% for Cine 2, so I think the profile matters for these Sonys.)...

Yes, the situation was more "clear cut" in 2011 when this thread started. In those days it was much more rare to be able to switch range or gamma on cameras. This help guide for your camera sheds some light on the settings. Maybe Cine3/Cine4 are 0-255??

I have added your results in the 16-235 (Cine2) and 16-255 (Cine1) categories. I hope I've got that right.

RogerS wrote on 5/5/2020, 1:05 AM

Thanks Nick. Yes, maybe those values are just noise. The amounts fall off a lot after 235.

I haven't experimented with the Cine 3 and 4 (why would I want a Cine with higher contrast curve?) but are probably 16-255 based on Sony's help file.

Okay, I decided to test it with the a6500:

Cine 4
Black minimum 14, black peak 19 (in RGB parade looks like 16)
White: 255

Cine 3
Black minimum 15, black peak 20 (in RGB parade looks like 16)
White: 255

RogerS wrote on 5/5/2020, 1:21 AM

More Sonys

RX100 IV

(shot at 1/4000 with ND filter on and F13- should be black!)

Cine 1
Black minimum 13, black peak 20
White: 255

Cine 2
Black minimum 14, black peak 20
White: 235

I think the user discrepancies with these cameras may be due to different and undisclosed profile settings.

NickHope wrote on 5/5/2020, 2:05 AM

@RogerS Have added your Sony α6500 results.

Your Sony DSC-RX100 IV results differ from what JN- reckoned based on his footage. Perhaps the black in your test is lifted just a little, despite the very low exposure. The truth may be that recent RX100 models may all have black levels somewhere between 0 and 16, and not fit neatly into either category.

You're right that it's all very dependent on profile settings. This old thread is somewhat in danger of outlasting its usefulness.

RogerS wrote on 5/5/2020, 2:45 AM

Hi Nick,
For test settings I'm supposed to just have Vegas in stock mode, so no SEMW PC settings or other adjustments, right?

I remembered I actually have a filter adapter for the RX100 IV. I stacked another x16 nd filter on the front with internal ND enabled, and then put a lens cap over it. The result- the same as before (min 13; peak @ 19/20).

So as for how JN got to zero, I don't know. I have Dynamic Range Optimization off. I switched PP to off, which leaves you with Creative Style Standard. That gives you a little darker black: min. 11, peak ~16. (If you have SEMW PC preview levels on you get blacks in a range from 0-9 for Standard or 0-14 for Cine 2.)

Looking at the a6500, a6600 and RX100IV blacks side by side on the timeline, I think we can say that at least for Sonys within the past few generations that the gamma range is the same if the same picture profile is used. That makes sense as the footage is almost indistinguishable (A7iii generation just have slightly less red saturation).

a6500 Cine 2
Rx100 IV Cine 2
a6500 Creative Style Standard
Rx100 IV Creative Style Standard

The median peak is the same but the a6500/6600 are a bit slimmer with lower deviation; my guess is because they are larger and lower noise sensors.

RogerS wrote on 5/6/2020, 12:20 AM

I just tested RX100 IV with S-LOG 2/S Gamut and it's a bit higher. Min 12, peak ~24.

diverG wrote on 7/18/2020, 3:06 PM

Panasonic HC-X1500E & HC-X2000E 16 - 255

Edit 2020/08/08:

A tad hasty with new toy, Black level with lens cap is 0 > 10. 255 is correct.

frmax wrote on 8/7/2020, 11:07 AM

Sony FDR AX53

Black min. 14, Peak 17

White max 255, Peak 251

from that (some test inaccurancies?) I would suggest 16-255 Range

MH7 wrote on 4/2/2021, 1:16 AM

Does anybody know what the Sony FDR-AX700 is. It’s what I use. I suspect similar to the Sony FDR-AX100. And I didn’t know the iPhone 7 is 16-235 (IIRC from reading this forum thread) because I have an iPhone 7 Plus.

RogerS wrote on 4/2/2021, 1:36 AM

@MH7 Sony cameras depend on the settings used when there are picture profiles or creative styles available.

So as not to guess, just perform the same test that the rest of us did recording in an all black environment with the lens cap, then pointed at a light source to find white. Use an 8-bit video project to see the levels for yourself.

RogerS wrote on 4/2/2021, 3:21 AM

"Legacy 8-bit (video levels)"

MH7 wrote on 4/2/2021, 5:01 AM

@MH7 Sony cameras depend on the settings used when there are picture profiles or creative styles available.

So as not to guess, just perform the same test that the rest of us did recording in an all black environment with the lens cap, then pointed at a light source to find white. Use an 8-bit video project to see the levels for yourself.

I usually have mine set to the default profile. It usually gives a clean result. I was actually quite surprised of how clean the results are in dark areas. As I think I’ve indicated on here before, my last camera was a Canon Legria HF G10 and, whilst not a bad camera by any means (it was quite an upgrade from the Sony DCR-DVD810E), it wasn’t so great in low light. But, yeah, I will look into performing the same test as the rest of you did and will report back with my findings.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 4/2/2021, 12:39 PM

@NickHope Min/Max levels can be selected on the Z-Cam E2 series cameras but limited range is recommended. It is reported in clip metadata as "Color range: Limited" which Vegas does not seem to pick up on.

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