Comments

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/17/2019, 4:26 PM

It is not true that you need the BM hardware to edit BRAW in an NLE. That is possible in tools like Edius where it is implemented by now, but will be possible in Vegas too.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/17/2019, 4:52 PM

Will be is in the future. I need to work today.

Former user wrote on 9/17/2019, 6:14 PM

. and BRAW isn't actually RAW at all, users have found it compresses into YUV and creates artifacts when doing things like green screen as a result. I can't speak for prores RAW, I haven't dug into its technical side yet.

Where is that information, can they be trusted, what profile were they using?

This is BM's explanation of their raw format using compression

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/17/2019, 7:15 PM

I know it isn't true raw but it is 12bit 4:4:4. The latitude of the color grading is a lot better than prores 10 bit 4:2:2. And braw uses a lot less system resources when editing. Braw is a dream to work with.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/17/2019, 7:17 PM

What other camera has 12bit 4:4:4 for under $8000 USD? Oh the bmpcc 6k. BRAW is a great codec.

fr0sty wrote on 9/17/2019, 8:04 PM

The Panasonic S1H with an Atmos recorder attached, which has far more dynamic range than a BMPCC. It's also full frame, has better lenses, better battery, and more recording features (like 180fps slomo and 4K 60 with no record time limits).

If 6k is as worthless to you as it is to me, the S1 has the same dynamic range and is far cheaper. It too can record 4K RAW using the Atmos.

https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/s/s1h/firmware_atomos.html

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:00 PM

The Panasonic S1H with the atmos external recorder cost $5000 USD. It is full frame but a lower bit rate. Its 10 bit. The bmpcc 6k is 12 bit. Quality for the dollar the bmpcc 6k is a better buy.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:01 PM

The bmpcc 6k is half the price and weight than the Panasonic s1h. And the bmpcc 6k records raw internal. The Panasonic doesn't.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:05 PM

Bmpcc 6k is a better and cheaper package to achieve raw video acquisition. And let's not forget my bmpcc has similar video quality at a $1295 usd price point. Vegas simply needs support braw sooner than later to keep customers happy. And magix currently isn't.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:10 PM

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:11 PM

Kinvermark wrote on 9/18/2019, 6:49 PM

@Cleven-Brown

Should we assume you REALLY, REALLY like the camera then? :) Point made, point taken.

But look, you already said you had to leave Vegas for Resolve anyway, so the point is academic - You are already out the door.

BTW, do any of the BM cameras include IBIS yet?

fr0sty wrote on 9/18/2019, 9:43 PM

There's no need to make 70 posts back to back... press that edit button.

"And let's not forget my bmpcc has similar video quality at a $1295 usd price point."

Using BRAW, it only gets 10.0 stops of dynamic range. The S1H hits over 14 stops.

BMPCC is a great camera for the price, but your question is if there were other cameras that could do all that for under 8k, and the S1H does 12 bit ProRes RAW (with the upcoming firmware update and an atmos recorder) with much higher dynamic range (so it is able to take more advantage of those 12 bits, unlike the BMPCC which can do 12 bit but its sensor is not sensitive enough to max out 10 bit's capabilities), and it does it at 4k 60p as well, or 1080 180p.

The S1H costs $4000, and the atmos ninja v 4k recorder costs $700. Also, the camera currently outputs 4:2:2 10 bit over its HDMI, but the new update allows it to ouput the native 12 bit signal from its sensor to the atmos recorder to record in what is said to be prores raw. So, you can pay $1300 for the BMPCC for 6k 10 stop raw and a small form factor, or if you really want good image quality, you can get 14+ stops at 4k for under $5000

Comparing the two cameras is apples to oranges.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/19/2019, 4:44 AM

I know it isn't true raw but it is 12bit 4:4:4. The latitude of the color grading is a lot better than prores 10 bit 4:2:2. And braw uses a lot less system resources when editing. Braw is a dream to work with.


Agree with you! And the Color Management of a simple Pocket 6K is great too. I have the Pocket 6K here, and I love it really. I do not care really if there is stated again and again that the BRAW is not RAW really - the same is true for ProRes RAW.

And I have here also the EVA1 and an FS7 - and also an Shogun Inferno. With the resul that I do not use ProRes RAW really, since during the last year that would have forced my to invest in an MAC and start to user FCPX.

I hope that Vegas will learn to edit BRAW in the future. The market for users that may tend to purchase cheaper BM cameras may be more compatible with Vegas users anyway, compared to PRR-Users.

The S1H is a great camera. Beside the fact that you Need again an external recorder, otherwise you end up with high compressed footage. I really do not like HEVC 420 as an acquisition Format. The Color Management is great too. And as far as I know the Pocket 6K has 12 stops - what is not soo bad.

fr0sty wrote on 9/19/2019, 11:08 AM

S1 uses H264 at 4:2:2 up to 400mbps all I frame in 4k, which is fine for me as I have no need to shoot 6k (I really don't like digital zooming, and never need to stabilize).

The pocket 6k is supposed to have 12 stops, but it doesn't... tests show that when recording braw 6k, it drops to 10, which is actually lower than the previous BMPCC camera.

https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/

 

Former user wrote on 9/19/2019, 12:01 PM

I know it isn't true raw but it is 12bit 4:4:4. The latitude of the color grading is a lot better than prores 10 bit 4:2:2. And braw uses a lot less system resources when editing. Braw is a dream to work with.


Agree with you! And the Color Management of a simple Pocket 6K is great too. I have the Pocket 6K here, and I love it really. I do not care really if there is stated again and again that the BRAW is not RAW really - the same is true for ProRes RAW.

Braw and codecs like it are the future and those that can't adapt will become extinct.

I hope that Vegas will learn to edit BRAW in the future. The market for users that may tend to purchase cheaper BM cameras may be more compatible with Vegas users anyway, compared to PRR-Users.

Yes exactly. Vegaspro needs braw to sustain relevance. It is my fear given the aging video engine in vp that it may not be possible to use gpu for decoding braw but codec is light enough it can still work at 4k without gpu support. Premiere plugin not yet using gpu

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/19/2019, 1:20 PM

S1 uses H264 at 4:2:2 up to 400mbps all I frame in 4k, which is fine for me as I have no need to shoot 6k (I really don't like digital zooming, and never need to stabilize).

The pocket 6k is supposed to have 12 stops, but it doesn't... tests show that when recording braw 6k, it drops to 10, which is actually lower than the previous BMPCC camera.

https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/

 

With ISO 400 I read something about 12 stops. What is similar to the FS7 compared with those tests.

It does not change anything. There will be more and more users that will shoot to ProRes RAW or BRAW. Simply because it can be done and offers more latitude in the post. And the investment in the new grading features makes sense especially for raw. So I do not doubt that grading those formats will take more and more share in the market. That is why Vegas should adopt that. And they plan to do so anyway.

If you or I decide to use that - well that is up to everone. But there is a trend to do so.

fr0sty wrote on 9/19/2019, 6:11 PM

"Yes exactly. Vegaspro needs braw to sustain relevance. It is my fear given the aging video engine in vp that it may not be possible to use gpu for decoding braw but codec is light enough it can still work at 4k without gpu support. Premiere plugin not yet using gpu"

Or perhaps, rather than rush out support now and it work terribly like it does in some NLE's currently, maybe Magix is taking the time to do it right the first time.

As for the cameras and codecs, everything is moving towards RAW, as I think we're hitting an upper limit with pixel counts, after 8k we're probably going to move on to less compression and more dynamic range to improve quality, so yes, Vegas needs to jump on the RAW bandwagon at the earliest possible moment, but I'd also rather it work right out of the box how it should, not be some buggy, slow implementation that got tacked on in a hurry.

 

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 9/21/2019, 5:13 AM

At IBC, even 16K compatibility has been mentioned by a lens manufacturer and I'm sure we'll hit 64K before I die.
In my case (CGI and VFX) I prefer higher frame rates, ditching the chroma sub-sampling, and a very good AF system that accepts manual guidance.

Reading the specs of the Lumix DC-S1H, do note that it doesn't seem to have a global shutter (and no technique to reduce rolling shutter artifacts - if you do CGI compositing, you should be worried), and be convinced that you want to invest in L-mount lenses.

About BMD Resolve. It looks promising but on my machine(s) it still crashes on inconvenient moments, BMD is introducing a new version (so I need to pay again and pray for bug fixes and feature requests), and media event editing on the timeline is not as flexible, convenient and obvious as in Vegas Pro.
Simple things that I use a lot, like Zoom In/Out into events on the timeline for instance, or Copy/Paste color filter properties. However, I do like their DNR for video - so, please Magix, we could use that in VP!

Compliments for the new Storyboard feature in VP.
I'd like to see that feature (and the timeline events) paired with project files from external video/audio applications so I can quickly switch to that application, update it, re-render the output, close the application, and watch/hear the updated result in its context on the Vegas Pro timeline.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/22/2019, 9:01 AM

Black magic stayes true to their camers and Davinci. Numerous updates almost every week for Davinci. And updates every other month or so for their cameras. I wish magix would do the same for vegas.

fr0sty wrote on 9/22/2019, 8:49 PM

"At IBC, even 16K compatibility has been mentioned by a lens manufacturer and I'm sure we'll hit 64K before I die."

I could see 8k+ resolutions used for VR 3D, but that's about the only home use I can think of that it wouldn't be a complete waste.

"Reading the specs of the Lumix DC-S1H, do note that it doesn't seem to have a global shutter "

No camera in its price range does, but I have never had issues even with my GH5. Vegas has rolling shutter correction as well.

" I wish magix would do the same for vegas."

Two things...

1. Magix is a software-only company. BlackMagic is a much larger company that also sells hardware and can afford to put larger resources behind the development of software it can afford to almost give away for free in order to promote its hardware. The problem there is, Resolve is slowly transforming into something that works best with BlackMagic's gear, rather than being a industry standard NLE regardless of what you use.

2. It is better for Vegas to release bi-tri monthly updates that are well tested than to crank out a new update every few weeks that breaks more than it fixes, especially when new features get introduced by these updates.

Cleven-Brown wrote on 9/23/2019, 10:59 AM

Bottom line is I'm able to edit today with resolve. That means I'm able to make money today with resolve. Time waits for no man. And I can't afford to wait for magix to provide support for braw. I wish they would but they don't.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/23/2019, 2:13 PM

Unfortunately, nobody will care about the fact that Magix does not sell cameras too. And I test my BM Pocket 6K at the moment at Montenegro. Sure, there are some issues with the camera too, but the only way to edit that Pocket 6K footage is to use Resolve at the moment. I hope that Vegas will learn that too.

Editor_101 wrote on 9/26/2019, 6:26 PM

Black magic raw came out in 2019. Vegas 16 was released in 2018. So its impossible for vegas to support black magic raw from many versions ago. The most current version Vegas 16 pro does not support black raw from my BMPCC 4K. I'm asking again when will Vegas start supporting black magic raw?


What? ...

Hasn't BMRAW been a thing since Resolve 15 was released in 2018 - and announced... The SDK released several months prior, because BMD time all of those major announcements and BETA releases for NAB, which is usually in … April? So, in reality, more like 18 months ago... when VEGAS Pro 15 (IIRC) was current.

Blackmagic Design releases the BMRAW SDK for free. Anyone can implement it, without licensing. It's similar to the Cineform CODEC, which VEGAS Pro still hasn't implemented native support for (but did waste resources on Nvidia-dependent intermediate CODECs... even Pinnacle Studio natively supports Cineform, now, FWIW).

It's totally possible for VEGAS Pro to start supporting it, even in a previous version, but that would require MAGIX to actually support VEGAS Pro versions for more than one release cycle (as is common with professional software).

And that's not going to happen. So the best thing you could ever hope for, is for it to be added in a patch to VP17 - but since people are asking so much about it, it's the perfect type of feature for them to hold off and use the sell upgrade licenses, next year.