I realise 10-bit HEVC 422 is challenging, but either way I can’t see any evidence of GPU hardware acceleration for HEVC 10-bit 420 for timeline playback.

It's not just challenging- it's not available for older processors.

Here's evidence of XT 3 and a7SIII files working with hardware decoding using Intel integrated GPU. (clips I downloaded from users here). MediaInfo confirms they are 10 bit 4:2:0.

A7sIII
 1
Format                         : HEVC
Format/Info                    : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                 : Main 10@L5.1@High
Codec ID                       : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                  : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                       : 24 s 0 ms
Bit rate                       : 150 Mb/s
Width                          : 3 840 pixels
Height                         : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 50.000 FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.362
Stream size                    : 429 MiB (96%)
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-11-07 22:10:22
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-11-07 22:10:22
Color range                    : Full
Codec configuration box        : hvcC

XT3
Video
ID                             : 1
Format                         : HEVC
Format/Info                    : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                 : Main 10@L5.2@High
Codec ID                       : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                  : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                       : 35 s 35 ms
Bit rate                       : 203 Mb/s
Width                          : 3 840 pixels
Height                         : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.408
Stream size                    : 846 MiB (98%)
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-26 16:50:25
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-26 16:50:25
Color range                    : Full
Color primaries                : BT.709
Transfer characteristics       : BT.601
Matrix coefficients            : BT.601
Codec configuration box        : hvcC

Yes iGPU may be, but i was turning mine off in BIOS as it was causing too much instability in previous VP versions. I run all my 2 screens (4k + FHD preview) on a 1060/6 which is faster and better than any iGPU and see no utilization on that. Can you?

ps I use the A7S3 myself so I’ve been chasing this for quite a while now..

@AVsupport You were talking about Resolve which is leveraging new Intel iGPUs to provide hardware acceleration (not NVIDIA or AMD). Now you are talking about disabling the iGPU, so you actually don't care if 4:2:2 decoding were implemented via the iGPU? Anyway, evidence of it working with 4:2:0 is above. If you just want to throw CPU cycles at it, you can.

The Intel decoder is the most compatible, most stable, and depending on footage type, most stable one around at the moment. Feel free to search for 4:2:2 decoding re: Premiere, Resolve and Final Cut and you'll see similar discussions. QuickSync is better than it has any right to be!

I read Quick Sync decoding of HEVC 4:2:2 is only supported by the newest Intel processors so if you want something to help with your Coffee Lake system, you are out of luck. For Resolve you also need DaVinci Resolve Studio to use this.

I'm pretty sure Vegas has 10-bit 4:2:0 HEVC with Intel hardware acceleration already, so consider that as an alternative.

@RogerS

QSV ...

Are you sure. It’s difficult to follow, but the following extract from Wiki shows 10 bit decoding. Maybe its not 422?

Version 6 (Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake, Whiskey Lake, Comet Lake)

The Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake and Comet Lake microarchitecture adds full fixed-function H.265/HEVC Main10/10-bit encoding and decoding acceleration and full fixed-function VP9 8-bit and 10-bit decoding acceleration and 8-bit encoding acceleration.[12][13]

Ok, so it appears that this generation below is what’s required to support hevc 10 bit 422 decode ...

“Version 7 (Ice Lake)

The Ice Lake (microprocessor) adds VP9 4:4:4 decoding, VP9 encoding (up to 10-bit and 4:4:4), HEVC 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 decoding and encoding,[14] HDR10 Tone Mapping[15] and Open Source Media Shaders.[16] HEVC hardware encoding quality has also been improved.[17]”

I agree this is confusing. I checked a few sites before sharing this link- I do not believe that's 4:2:2 or it would say so. The updates here only state what is new compared to the previous version.

So in 3 generations it goes from 10 bit 4:2:0 to 10 bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 and then to 12 bit 4:2:0, 4:2:2 and 4:4:4.

Version 6 (Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake, Whiskey Lake, Comet Lake)

The Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake and Comet Lake microarchitecture adds full fixed-function H.265/HEVC Main10/10-bit encoding and decoding acceleration and full fixed-function VP9 8-bit and 10-bit decoding acceleration and 8-bit encoding acceleration.[12][13]

Version 7 (Ice Lake)

The Ice Lake (microprocessor) adds VP9 4:4:4 decoding, VP9 encoding (up to 10-bit and 4:4:4), HEVC 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 decoding and encoding,[14] HDR10 Tone Mapping[15] and Open Source Media Shaders.[16] HEVC hardware encoding quality has also been improved.[17]

Version 8 (Tiger Lake, Rocket Lake)

The Tiger Lake (microprocessor) & Rocket Lake adds VP9 12-bit & 12-bit 4:4:4 hardware decoding and HEVC 12-bit 4:2:0, 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 hardware decoding.[18] Gen12 Xe will also support native AV1 decode, which includes 10-bit 4:2:0 16K stills and 10-bit 4:2:0 8K, 4K and 2K video.[19] Hardware encoding for VP8 was dropped and hardware decoding is only available on Tiger Lake.[20]

Also, for NVIDIA hardware decoding doesn't support 4:2:2 HEVC on any card link

 

 

Ok, so it appears that this generation below is what’s required to support hevc 10 bit 422 decode ...

“Version 7 (Ice Lake)

The Ice Lake (microprocessor) adds VP9 4:4:4 decoding, VP9 encoding (up to 10-bit and 4:4:4), HEVC 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 decoding and encoding,[14] HDR10 Tone Mapping[15] and Open Source Media Shaders.[16] HEVC hardware encoding quality has also been improved.[17]”

Mac M1 and new intel CPU's are the only ones that do hardware decode of 422. There may be expensive commercial cards that do so, but nothing in the consumer market until now

Yes I am aware there's been a lack of HW support for 422. Point of this thread and the other one here https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/hevc-10-bit-422-and-420-howsit-going-magix-434-update-below--125821/ was to raise the awareness that other NLEs are making good progress with HEVC support. VPs So4 got blacklisted not fixed so no more nVidia GPU support but burning CPU instead or lacklustre iGPU.

@lenard @RogerS

I'm still confused, It appears to me that QSV, which is used in the Intel iGpu, thus HW, supports 422 10 bit decode from version 7 of QSV onwards?

I'm still confused, It appears to me that QSV, which is used in the Intel iGpu, thus HW, supports 422 10 bit decode from version 7 of QSV onwards?

Yes, that is my understanding. Unfortunately I don't have a processor that recent so I can't say if hardware decoding of 4:2:2 works in Vegas (I would guess not yet, but don't know). JN and AV appear to be Coffee Lake, so you can't test either.

@RogerS Thanks Roger. This previous post of yours shows that the previous to 7th. gen. ones don’t support it ... Although it might have been complicated by being log?

I was able to confirm that the HEVC 4:2:2 file does not open or play with a system that has an Intel iGPU decoder either. It didn't work normally or when legacy HEVC was checked. It didn't work with hardware decoding off. "The application does not support this file type"

My curiosity in this is just to know what HW has the capability of decoding 10 bit 422, so Intel QSV is it, since Amd and Nvidia GPU cards don’t. Having VP implementation is part 2🤪

Yes I am aware there's been a lack of HW support for 422. Point of this thread and the other one here https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/hevc-10-bit-422-and-420-howsit-going-magix-434-update-below--125821/ was to raise the awareness that other NLEs are making good progress with HEVC support. VPs So4 got blacklisted not fixed so no more nVidia GPU support but burning CPU instead or lacklustre iGPU.

I don't get what the point is to either thread.

Rival NLEs are also using QuickSync (do a search), with newer Intel iGPUs which you don't have and even if you did, you disabled the iGPU so it wouldn't work anyway.

Your NVIDIA does not support 4:2:2 so that's not an option and has nothing to do with So4. Is the complaint that you want NVIDIA decoding in Vegas for 4:2:0 10-bit?

So re-enable the iGPU, update the drivers, disable legacy decoding and see if you can get Vegas to at least give good performance with QuickSync video.

@lenard @RogerS

I'm still confused, It appears to me that QSV, which is used in the Intel iGpu, thus HW, supports 422 10 bit decode from version 7 of QSV onwards?

Version 7 is Ice Lake, that was never a desktop cpu, it existed in mobile laptops and tablets. Desktop CPU's with IGPU capable of HEVC 422 decode will exist with rocketlake when released in about a week

Is the complaint that you want NVIDIA decoding in Vegas for 4:2:0 10-bit?

RogerS is that not reasonable? Nvidia GPU's are capable of 420 10 bit HEVC decode, but vegas isn't

Yes the complaint is that I want better HEVC support, starting with nVidia and 420 because my iGPU is too lame in comparison; Alternatively I have been playing with the thought to upgrade my CPU but I am not convinced I will see the Bang for the Buck..

The above QSV, 6th gen. is a valid solution for the A7SIII codecs which supports 10 bit 420.

The Canon R5, which is not a problem for AVSupport, however doesn’t support that codec, its 420 8 bit, is ok, or 422 10 bit. So in a sense the 10 bit 420 Sony codec is a get out of jail free card at the moment, compared to the R5.

“Version 7 is Ice Lake, that was never a desktop cpu, it existed in mobile laptops and tablets. Desktop CPU's with IGPU capable of HEVC 422 decode will exist with rocketlake when released in about a week”

Yes, I know that, thanks, just looking for solutions.

Yes Ice Lake will decode 4K 10bit HEVC 422. https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/product-briefs/10th-gen-core-mobile-processors-brief.pdf would be interesting to hear from anyone who has such a laptop if that's indeed the case with VP and if that brings any performance enhancement over UHD630. 11th gen should to the trick alright, but that's also a complete system overhaul.

I guess @RogerS you are right in your assessment that my best option currently is QSV until this problem "Nvidia GPU's are capable of 420 10 bit HEVC decode, but vegas isn't" is resolved (pun intended)

/add:

I guess my frustration lies within the fact that I still cannot import HEVC 422, even if it was CPU decode only, without VP crashing. There's still no 'Vegas Prepare' which I was expecting as a sugar candy dangling when VP18 came out, of which I would have hoped I could use for importing / transcoding 'difficult' codecs. I'd like to be able to shoot/edit 422 when there's green screen work. And HEVC seems to be the 'no brainer' aqcuisition format for this purpose as there's little movement, and effective compression.

My second part of my frustrations is that I also cannot effectively use HEVC 420 without decent nVidia hardware acceleration, because if I go iGPU, with 2 tracks 10-bit SLOG3, if you want to grade and see what you are doing without the poxy proxies in near 'finishing quality', the system crawls. And I don't think that my hardware is underpowered. The software just isn't making effective use of the resources at hand.

My choice now is using iGPU UHD630 @403 GFLOPS vs not being able to use my nVidia 1060/6 @3855 GFLOPS. exciting.

I think the Intel Ice Lake igpu being referred to is the Iris and its strictly for laptops at the moment... they seem to be designed more for low power than performance. There was supposed to be a pci board version released but it hasn't happened yet. I've also heard talk of a server/pci version but I'm not sure that's been released yet either. Then there are rumors going round of a new Nuc that may feature an Iris along with an nVidia 3060 mini. Something like the current 2060 mini version. I think that's the one most likely to materialize the soonest.

Isn't Rocket Lake about to be released​?​​​​​​

see if there *was* a VP Prepare that *could* uprez a HEVC10/422 into a 444 then all the current capable nVidia GPUs could decode at full speed and full quality without the need for a complete system rebuild worth mega$$. That solution is already there ready to tap into, no rocket needed!

see if there *was* a VP Prepare that *could* uprez a HEVC10/422 into a 444 then all the current capable nVidia GPUs could decode at full speed and full quality without the need for a complete system rebuild worth mega$$. That solution is already there ready to tap into, no rocket needed!

 

@AVsupport Well, I haven’t checked it out in HOS, but maybe @wwaag's tools, R+ can do that.

Handbrake I'm sure will do that also, plus varoudouker.

I don’t really have a need for it, but, out of curiosity I did a small temporary change to my VFR2CFR util, see my signature. I tested, using CPU encode only, on a few seconds of R5 hevc 10 bit 422 clog, closest test footage I have to A7S III'S.

I then converted it to 10 bit 444 h264. As its a hevc source file it would be a very slow process, best done overnight in batch. On my PC, see signature, it took about 7.7 times source duration. On my laptop, just under 20x.

Meant to say, in my test I converted the hevc to h264 as my util only outputs x264.

The ImportAssist tool supports transcoding to 444 but not for HEVC--not because it can't be done as @JN- has shown, but because it is NOT (IMHO) a recommended practice. HEVC is simply not a good editing format, especially for those with limited system resources, due to the high demands it places on your system for decoding. If transcoding becomes necessary, it should be to a format designed for editing such as ProRes or a lossless format such as MagicYUV. Once transcoded, editing in Vegas will be much smoother than use of HEVC. Moreover, transcoding from HEVC to HEVC will result in some quality loss since both formats are lossy.

Moreover, transcoding from HEVC to HEVC will result in some quality loss since both formats are lossy.

The idea behind this would have been similar to putting an 8-bit file into a 10bit or 32float environment, or uprezzing 1080 into 4K, which would only make sense of course without another decode/encode process, through a ‘shortcut’ conversion; And this only makes sense if you then have HEVC 10/444 editing support in VP which we don’t have at the mo.