[bug] Help me out 2#2 - Vegas records extreme many "undo's" (crash)

Peterson wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:52 AM

Vegas records hundreds of "undo" states when using 3rd party plugins.

Please see this other thread with more details and how other software acts with this issue;

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-help-me-out-very-slow-performance-vst-plugins--140921/

The main problem has two issues;

  1. The interface of the affected plugin become very slow (build 370) and even unworkable (build 403).

    You can see more about this (confirmed by others) in the link above.

    In 370 the workaround was to "not enable undo for 3rd party FX", but in 403 this doesn't work anylonger.

    So in 403 the undo-states are always fetched / recorded, resulting in tearing of the mouse and crashing of the program.
    Β 
  2. There are so many useless undo-states it causes crash and lag.

    Basically that is it, it is all shown in the thread I linked above.

    But to keep focus, this thread is about the undo-event only (I thing it results in tearing of the mouse, but I am not 100% sure).

    I have mentioned this months ago, and created lot's of tickets to it - no one simple answers and in 403 it is now unworkable.

    I have created / compiled my own Vegas20.exe for build 360 so I can still use it, because 403 is extreme bad in performance.

So there are many useless undo-states; that is the main problem I describe here (it causes crash of Vegas and lag in plugins).

See this recording, the issue is with all 3rd party plugins.

  • In the beginning I have one undo-state.
  • Than I change a parameter for a internal plugin.
  • This results in another undo-state (which is okay).
  • Than I change a paramater for a third party plugin.
  • This results in hundreds of undo's (and tearing / lagging the plugin interface).
  • Than I try to change another 3rd party and show the amount of undo's.
  • Vegas crashes (it also crashes when not showing, but "undoing".

The system has 128GB of ram, that should be enough and the crashes are random, but always connected to "undo".

In Vegas 20 / 370 "do not save FX undo" was a workaround.

But in Vegas 20 / 403 this option doesn't act how it should be and the tearing becomes more bad than ever (see link above).

Β 

Comments

RogerS wrote on 5/10/2023, 9:34 AM

Here's a .wav file with Loudmax 64 VST 2 applied. I changed the values a few times like the video and toggled it on and off while playing. No excessive undo states or freeze.

For Izotope RX9 De-ESS I created a new project, added the same wav again and just moved the cut-off frequency up and down, and then settled on a single value. Instead of a single undo state it made many:

These tests are on my laptop (signature).

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with 31.0.101.4091 driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (driver 31.0.101.2115), dual internal SSD (256GB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

Vegas 19.648
Vegas 20.270

VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Peterson wrote on 5/10/2023, 10:34 AM

Here's a .wav file with Loudmax 64 VST 2 applied.

For Izotope RX9 De-ESS I created a new project,

I did the same in the video below (LoudMax 64 / VST 2 and Izotope RX9 De-Ess / VST 2).

As you can see both did trigger many (hundreds) of undo's where only four of five should be set.

This happens with all 3rd party plugins (the native ones from Vegas act like they should).

To make things clear; the problem (for me) is notΒ the insane amount of "undo's" and notΒ the (possible) crash / freeze of Vegas (sometimes that happens, sometimes not).

But the problem isΒ that in Vegas 20 / 403 the plugins become unresponsive (when you change a parameter with a slider, knob or mouse-movement than Vegas "struggles" to keep in synch with what you are trying to change).

I think the many undo's have to do something with this.

See this post that is (somehow) linked to the "undo" issue (I think);

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-help-me-out-1-2-very-slow-performance-vst-plugins-tearing--140921/

In Vegas 20 / 370 the GUI of 3rd party plugins became "sluggish" (tearing) when "undo FX for 3rd party plugins" was active (and became fluid, when turned off).

In Vegas 20 / 403 the GUI is always sluggish (the same effect as 370 with the option turned on) even when you bypass the undo's.

So it looks like there is a link between the many "undo's" and the "tearing" in 3rd party plugins (since Vegas 20 and even worse in the latest build).

- edit - there was no automation or anything active. I just made plain changes which results in many undo's.

The issue started with the first build of Vegas 20, became worse in 370 and is breaking (for me) the workflow in 403.

Turning the option "record undo's for FX" off, doesn't work in 403 (it was in 370) because the GUI of affected plugins is extreme slow now (in 403).

It spoke to the devs of DeEss by Airwindows and Lisp / Spitfish (all de-essers) and they all stated that their plugins did not even "record" their own undo's; this is done by the client (Vegas).

I also tried those plugins in Audacity, Sound Forge and RX 10 Pro without any issue.

Petersson wrote on 5/15/2023, 9:56 AM

I asked the mods how to report this bugs, since no one really answers (from Vegas / Magix / the dev-team).

Best way to make this bug show up it so create a ticket and enter that ticket number here, the mods said.

So here it is, the ticket attached to this bug - 2023051517002593

Once I have an answer to this ticket, I will also make it visible in this thread.

vegasdimitar wrote on 5/16/2023, 7:15 AM

Hi @Peterson and thank you for your feedback!
A fix for this will come with the next update for VEGAS 20

RogerS wrote on 5/16/2023, 7:24 AM

That's great to hear!

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with 31.0.101.4091 driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (driver 31.0.101.2115), dual internal SSD (256GB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

Vegas 19.648
Vegas 20.270

VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

pierre-k wrote on 5/16/2023, 8:15 AM

Hi @vegasdimitar​​​​​​

And this, please?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-three-problems-with-waves-plugins-only-in-vp20--140944/

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-three-problems-with-waves-plugins-only-in-vp20--140944/

Petersson wrote on 5/16/2023, 8:18 AM

Hi @Peterson and thank you for your feedback!
A fix for this will come with the next update for VEGAS 20

Wow, I got a response from the Vegas team itself... #proud πŸ˜‰

On a more serious note : I really like Vegas for it's audio editing, but those two bugs are really spoiling the party.

So I hope they will be fixed.

I also think those "undo's" have impact on another (related) issue, I described here (ticket : 2023051517002441);

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-help-me-out-1-2-very-slow-performance-vst-plugins-tearing--140921/

In the previous build, when "disable undo for FX" this issue was gone (so it had something to do with "undo").

But in build 403 this option doesn't solve the issue (the lag) any longer (and the lag / slow down of Vegas is much more terrible).

If I can test or investigate anything, please let me know.

vegasdimitar wrote on 5/16/2023, 8:26 AM

Hi @Petersson. Yes, I saw that bug as well, I believe that my fix solves both problems, but we are still about to test the performance issue further to ensure that it will be resolved with the next patch. Thank you again for your feedback!

Petersson wrote on 5/16/2023, 8:31 AM

Thanks for answering personally.

The bug appeared in Vegas 20 (I think), in Vegas 19 is was okay.

In Vegas 20 / build 370 you were able to "do not keep undo's for FX" in the options.

This skipped all undo's and kept the plugin GUI interacting smooth and fluid.

Most dedicated plugins (for 3rd parties) have there own undo-mechanisme (like RX suite and Melda suite), so the workaround was not a big issue.

But in build 403 the option to "discard undo's" did not work (it didn't show the undo's, but the undo's were still captured, because the GUI of the plugins became unstable and very slow).

So I think indeed the issues (all those undo's and all those slowdowns) are somehow "linked" to eachother.

Once again, thank you for answering; I really had the feeling I was alone in the dark here.

pierre-k wrote on 5/16/2023, 9:00 AM

@vegasdimitar

Please also look into this audio issue. There are sounds in the audio that don't belong there, or I'm playing somewhere else.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-program-adds-new-audio-to-clips--137169/#ca858292

Petersson wrote on 5/17/2023, 8:02 AM

Update from helpdesk.

"This is a known issue which will be resolved in a future application update. Thank you for reporting this issue."

So they are working on it.

pierre-k wrote on 5/17/2023, 8:13 AM

It is probably faster to contact the helpdesk directly than to solve problems here and hope that other users will join us. Hopefully the case with plugins and also the problem with wav (which I reported) will finally be closed for the next version of Vegas.

mark-y wrote on 5/17/2023, 9:13 AM

Back when computer systems had less memory, and sluggishness and stalls from large undo buffers were a real problem, not just when using third party plugins, the standard advice was to close Vegas and restart one's editing session every two hours. I still do this out of habit.

RogerS wrote on 5/17/2023, 9:47 AM

It is probably faster to contact the helpdesk directly than to solve problems here and hope that other users will join us. Hopefully the case with plugins and also the problem with wav (which I reported) will finally be closed for the next version of Vegas.

It's not either or, I'd do both. If we can isolate and replicate issues here it increases the likelihood of them getting solved. I've seen that happen so many times.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with 31.0.101.4091 driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (driver 31.0.101.2115), dual internal SSD (256GB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

Vegas 19.648
Vegas 20.270

VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Petersson wrote on 5/17/2023, 10:48 AM

Back when computer systems had less memory, and sluggishness and stalls from large undo buffers were a real problem, not just when using third party plugins, the standard advice was to close Vegas and restart one's editing session every two hours. I still do this out of habit.

This bug is not triggered by lack of memory.

I have a system with 128GB of ram and even on that machine the plugins slows down.

Every time you move your mouse 1 pixel (e.g. when changing a slider or knob) hundreds of undo's are recorded, fetched and stacked in the undo-stack.

This makes it impossible to drag a slider in real time (it lags / tears) and you have to undo that particular action also hundreds of time before it is really undone.

Petersson wrote on 5/17/2023, 10:49 AM

It is probably faster to contact the helpdesk directly than to solve problems here and hope that other users will join us. Hopefully the case with plugins and also the problem with wav (which I reported) will finally be closed for the next version of Vegas.

They said this was the best way to report an issue.

  1. Write it down here in the forum
  2. Contact support about it and mention the thread
  3. Update the thread (in the title) with the ticket number they attach to it
pierre-k wrote on 6/20/2023, 3:17 AM

@vegasdimitar

For me in VP20 b411 some bugs are fixed. Thank You!

Excessive undo with 3rd party plugins - FIXED

3rd party plugin settings tearing - FIXED

Jerking when FX Automation is active - NOT FIXED

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-vst-becomes-slow-if-attached-to-envelope-vegas-20-401-411--141369/

Playhead tearing with 3rd party plugins - NOT FIXED.

pierre-k wrote on 6/20/2023, 3:33 AM

@vegasdimitar

In the case of an error with Wav, when it sometimes plays what it doesn't have, I probably figured out the cause of the problem. If the HDD is in dynamic mode, these problems arise.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-program-adds-new-audio-to-clips--137169/#ca858292

Petersson wrote on 6/20/2023, 9:59 AM

@vegasdimitar

In the case of an error with Wav, when it sometimes plays what it doesn't have, I probably figured out the cause of the problem. If the HDD is in dynamic mode, these problems arise.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-program-adds-new-audio-to-clips--137169/#ca858292

I only work with SSD, but also only with audio (not video).

The slow VST-plugin GUI (change parameters by mouse) when attached to an enveloppe still exist.

I will link it here, so any dev can see the full thread when needed.