Confirming cropping into 4K for 1080 render with no quality loss

Comments

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 3/25/2023, 10:26 PM

@RedRob-CandlelightProdctns It's a different workflow if you want voukoder to do the scaling. You feed it your source resolution, so 4K for you, then in voukoder it scales the image. It's in the filter settings

 

Hmm.. yeah, don't think that would work for me then, since my source is mixed resolutions; I can't just choose 4K and have it represent all the project content.

My typical theatre setup is 6-8 cameras, with my wide and a POV action-cam being 4K to allow for clean pushing into the image as needed ("safety" in the case of wide). My other cams I usually film 1080p, even my 4K cameras, and in-camera enable digital zoom so it pushes into the 4K sensor when needed so the camera op can get tighter. They're already shooting tight and I trust them.

Vegas 21.300

My PC (for finishing):

Cyperpower PC Intel Core i7-7700K CPU @ 4.2GHz, 64GB mem @ 2133MHz RAM, AMD Radeon RX470 (4GB dedicated) with driver recommended by Vegas Updater (reports as 30.0.15021.11005 dated 4/28/22), and Intel HD Graphics 630 driver version 31.0.101.2112 dated 7/21/22 w/16GB shared memory. Windows 10 Pro 64bit version 10.0.19045 Build 19045.

My main editing laptop:

Dell G15 Special Edition 5521, Bios 1.12 9/13/22, Windows 11 22H2 (10.0.22621)

12th Gen Intel Core i7-12700H (14 cores, 20 logical processors), 32 GB DDR5 4800MHz RAM, Intel Iris Xe Graphics, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti Laptop GPU w/8GB GDDR6 RAM, Realtek Audio

 

 

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 3/25/2023, 10:27 PM

Try applying the general recommended preset in Voukoder. You can also change the CRF from 23 to 20 or 17 etc for better quality and higher file size.

That's exactly what I did.. the default one (which I presumed was the same as the "general recommended" one -- the "use this if you're not sure which to use" one)

 

Vegas 21.300

My PC (for finishing):

Cyperpower PC Intel Core i7-7700K CPU @ 4.2GHz, 64GB mem @ 2133MHz RAM, AMD Radeon RX470 (4GB dedicated) with driver recommended by Vegas Updater (reports as 30.0.15021.11005 dated 4/28/22), and Intel HD Graphics 630 driver version 31.0.101.2112 dated 7/21/22 w/16GB shared memory. Windows 10 Pro 64bit version 10.0.19045 Build 19045.

My main editing laptop:

Dell G15 Special Edition 5521, Bios 1.12 9/13/22, Windows 11 22H2 (10.0.22621)

12th Gen Intel Core i7-12700H (14 cores, 20 logical processors), 32 GB DDR5 4800MHz RAM, Intel Iris Xe Graphics, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti Laptop GPU w/8GB GDDR6 RAM, Realtek Audio

 

 

3POINT wrote on 3/25/2023, 11:58 PM

You can also change the CRF from 23 to 20 or 17 etc for better quality and higher file size.

Don't do that when you plan to show your renders on a (U)HDTV. Since Voukoder bitrate is strongly depending on complexity of your Video, lowering the CRF setting can cause peak bitrates which are beyond the max bitrate of your TV, resulting in shocking playback. A common issue for max quality seekers.

My advice use CRF 23 for 1080p and CRF25 for 2160p.

RogerS wrote on 3/26/2023, 12:40 AM

Try applying the general recommended preset in Voukoder. You can also change the CRF from 23 to 20 or 17 etc for better quality and higher file size.

That's exactly what I did.. the default one (which I presumed was the same as the "general recommended" one -- the "use this if you're not sure which to use" one)

 

I think the real default is not selecting any presets and that's what I assumed you used.

Personally I use renders for uploads to the internet and directly played back from computers hooked to a TV via HDMI or on tablets, so give it high peak bitrates.

3point's warning is a good one as how you intend to use the render also impacts the settings you choose.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 3/26/2023, 12:51 AM

You can also change the CRF from 23 to 20 or 17 etc for better quality and higher file size.

<...snip...> Since Voukoder bitrate is strongly depending on complexity of your Video, lowering the CRF setting can cause peak bitrates which are beyond the max bitrate of your TV, resulting in shocking playback.

What playback method would have this problem.. I mean.. TV's aren't natively playing these video files (unless on a thumb-drive maybe??).. so it'll either be a streaming service (Vimeo, YouTube, whatever) via Chromecast or a directly connected computer, and then those playback devices would deal with ABR, VBR, etc. to get it playable, ya?

Vegas 21.300

My PC (for finishing):

Cyperpower PC Intel Core i7-7700K CPU @ 4.2GHz, 64GB mem @ 2133MHz RAM, AMD Radeon RX470 (4GB dedicated) with driver recommended by Vegas Updater (reports as 30.0.15021.11005 dated 4/28/22), and Intel HD Graphics 630 driver version 31.0.101.2112 dated 7/21/22 w/16GB shared memory. Windows 10 Pro 64bit version 10.0.19045 Build 19045.

My main editing laptop:

Dell G15 Special Edition 5521, Bios 1.12 9/13/22, Windows 11 22H2 (10.0.22621)

12th Gen Intel Core i7-12700H (14 cores, 20 logical processors), 32 GB DDR5 4800MHz RAM, Intel Iris Xe Graphics, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti Laptop GPU w/8GB GDDR6 RAM, Realtek Audio

 

 

RogerS wrote on 3/26/2023, 12:56 AM

Pretty sure he is referring to playing it directly on a thumb drive or NAS.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

3POINT wrote on 3/26/2023, 2:35 AM

AFAIK, (U)HDTV have a limitation of 100 Mbps. Voukoder renders can easily peak this when CRF setting is too low. Voukoder CRF has no max bitrate setting, it just tries to maintain the quality of the CRF setting.

john_dennis wrote on 3/26/2023, 3:23 PM

@RedRob-CandlelightProdctns said:

"Also -- gotta admit -- I don't know how to interpret your quality/loss results (or how they are measured)... they look scientific and all, I just don't know what they mean!"

Without knowing what all the measurements mean, here is an example of a perfectly lossless render.

Date: 2023/03/26  11:44:23  
Description: Crop Test Legacy 8 bit UHD to UHD Uncompressed
Frames Processed: 330
Mean Squared Error: 0
Peak Signal to Noise Ratio: 99
Structural Similarity Metric: 1

Compare that to any render to AVC/AAC...

Date: 2023/03/25  09:06:47  
Description: Crop Test Legacy 8 bit UHD to UHD Magix AVC/AAC
Frames Processed: 330
Mean Squared Error: 5.104
Peak Signal to Noise Ratio: 41.137
Structural Similarity Metric: 0.7519

... and you'll start to see what you're losing.

The output file is a very impractical uncompressed avi. Some loss of quality from the original is the price of living in a world with limits.

General
Complete name                            : Crop Test Legacy 8 bit UHD to UHD Uncompressed.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 7.65 GiB
Duration                                 : 11 s 11 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 5 968 Mb/s
Encoded by                               : John Dennis
Copyright                                : 2023
TCOD                                     : 0
TCDO                                     : 110110000

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : RGB
Codec ID                                 : 0x00000000
Codec ID/Info                            : Basic Windows bitmap format. 1, 4 and 8 bpp versions 
                                                   are palettised. 16, 24 and 32bpp contain raw RGB samples
Duration                                 : 11 s 11 ms
Bit rate                                 : 5 966 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : RGB
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 24.000
Stream size                              : 7.65 GiB (100%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 11 s 11 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 2.02 MiB (0%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 245  ms (7.33 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration             : 250  ms