Help Martin to spend his dime well!

Martin L wrote on 8/28/2019, 3:42 AM

Let me post this here in a new thread.

I need to get a new machine. My old is 8 years old and it is time to change, of several reasons. The new should work for the next 8 years, or so I hope.

Anyways, this is what I and my PC guy have come up with. It is based on Grazies dosh thread recently and some benchmark tests, as well as the PC-guy's experience. My budget is not huge so I know I can't get the fastest monsta on earth, but it should work well with VP17 and 4 K footage. I welcome all thoughts and suggestions before I go ahead and spend my dimes.

Corsair 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 2666Mhz CL16 Vengeance LPX (RAM)

Powercolor Radeon VII 16GB (GPU)

Intel Core i9 9900K 3.6 GHz 16MB (CPU)

MSI Z390-A PRO (Motherboard)

Kingston A2000 500GB M.2 NVMe SSD (system drive to only have the OS, Vegas and other necessary software in)

Samsung 860 QVO 2TB (work storage/where all video footage and projects are stored until project is finished and delivered)

(I have another big storage/backup where I stow away finished projects and delete them from the work storage)

be quiet! Straight Power 11 850W (Power)

be quiet! Shadow Rock 2 (CPU cooler)

Fractal Design Define C (box)

And of course Win 10 Professional

What do you think guys? Grateful for any thoughts.

Comments

Grazie wrote on 8/28/2019, 4:04 AM

@Martin L - All sounds great! You’re going to enjoy the power of that GPU working in VP17. Stunning. Could you spring to 64gb RAM or a 1Kw PS? As to my Budget, I too had to tailor the expenditure. The Builders gave me several options and I came back here to check it out. Is your Builder a VP User? Has he built for NLEs before? I’m guessing yes!

Martin L wrote on 8/28/2019, 4:17 AM

Thanks Grazie! The PC guy has built NLE's but is not a VP user. More a general good and knowledgable PC guy.

Actually we talked about 64 GB RAM instead of 32, but someone said 32 is good enough by far. I see you got 64 though. We haven't decided on that yet. Would 64 make a big difference you think?

The 850 W PS should also be more than enough according to stated requirements.

What we came up with is kind of on the limit of my budget. But some changes/upgrades can be done if needed.

Grazie wrote on 8/28/2019, 5:20 AM

@Martin L - Very wise. I mention the 64gb as the difference in price was a come and getyah price! Maybe your guy hasn’t the buying power/option I have been able to lock into.

Martin L wrote on 8/28/2019, 5:37 AM

@Martin L - Very wise. I mention the 64gb as the difference in price was a come and getyah price! Maybe your guy hasn’t the buying power/option I have been able to lock into.

That's possible yes.

Something I have suffered with a long time with my present PC is that I can never open up another Vegas instance when one is already open and loaded with a project. Vegas always crashes if I try. To succed I always need to close the open project first so that Vegas is open without a project, then try to open another instance of Vegas. That usually crashes Vegas anyway a few times until finally two instances are open. After that I can load a project in one instance and when it is done I load another project in the other. Once up and going it usually continues to work. So it seems to me there is some bottleneck in my present system that is sensitive. I don't want that in the new one.

I have 24 GB RAM in the present one, which to me seems quite a lot...

Can it be a RAM issue?

Dexcon wrote on 8/28/2019, 6:04 AM

Can it be a RAM issue?

Unlikely IMO. My computer has 32GB RAM and there's been no problems having more than 1 instance of VP open. Even my older computer with 12GB RAM could handle multiple VPs open without a problem years ago (VP13 days).

Edit: And my laptop with 12GB RAM can open 3 instances of VP16 without a problem though, to be fair, they are all blank with no projects.

Martin L wrote on 8/28/2019, 6:57 AM

Can it be a RAM issue?

Unlikely IMO. My computer has 32GB RAM and there's been no problems having more than 1 instance of VP open. Even my older computer with 12GB RAM could handle multiple VPs open without a problem years ago (VP13 days).

Edit: And my laptop with 12GB RAM can open 3 instances of VP16 without a problem though, to be fair, they are all blank with no projects.

Thanks, interesting. I might just go with the 32 GB (2x16) because if it later turns out not to be enough I can easily add another 32. There are 4 slots so two will still be available for a future upgrade.

So, if it isn't a RAM issue, what could it be?

Grazie wrote on 8/28/2019, 7:01 AM

So, if it isn't a RAM issue, what could it be?

@Martin L - For me, as I said, the extra cost was relatively low in terms of the whole build.

zdogg wrote on 8/28/2019, 10:48 AM

Samsung QVO is there cheaper brand, I'd research that, not as robust, shorter life, etc....

You might want to water cool ...especially with the vid card, which run hot as I understand....Water cooled Vega 64 is a hawt item right now....

Don't worry about multiple instances of Vegas, that sounds like a glitch in your present system.

The only other idea is why not AMD CPU? Those are screamers for less$$...

But all in all, a truly Boffo system you've proposed.

 

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/28/2019, 7:45 PM

Looks very similar to a system I built myself a few months back, except for some brand substitution. I like the Fractal Design C-case, btw. Managed to find one with a steel lid instead of glass which has a little more acoustic padding under it. Regarding the memory, leaving room for expansion is a double edged sword because the 8gb units run a little quicker and cooler than the 16gb ones... but they'll max you out if you only have 4 memory slots. Although I did the same thing with G.skill 16gb units, I think maxing might have been a wiser choice. Unless you think you might want to run some other apps, like virtualization, that might use more than 32gb. Another issue is that usually matched sets are called for. So adding 2 more 16gb simms down the road may or may not even work. Here's some photos I doc'd to facebook of my own build.

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

Martin L wrote on 8/29/2019, 7:08 AM

Samsung QVO is there cheaper brand, I'd research that, not as robust, shorter life, etc....

You might want to water cool ...especially with the vid card, which run hot as I understand....Water cooled Vega 64 is a hawt item right now....

Don't worry about multiple instances of Vegas, that sounds like a glitch in your present system.

The only other idea is why not AMD CPU? Those are screamers for less$$...

But all in all, a truly Boffo system you've proposed.

Thanks, I'll look into those things.

Looks very similar to a system I built myself a few months back, except for some brand substitution. I like the Fractal Design C-case, btw. Managed to find one with a steel lid instead of glass which has a little more acoustic padding under it. Regarding the memory, leaving room for expansion is a double edged sword because the 8gb units run a little quicker and cooler than the 16gb ones... but they'll max you out if you only have 4 memory slots. Although I did the same thing with G.skill 16gb units, I think maxing might have been a wiser choice. Unless you think you might want to run some other apps, like virtualization, that might use more than 32gb. Another issue is that usually matched sets are called for. So adding 2 more 16gb simms down the road may or may not even work. Here's some photos I doc'd to facebook of my own build.

Interesting. I'll think that over too. Thank you.

Martin L wrote on 8/30/2019, 7:59 AM

Had discussions with the PC guy and he too really appreciated all your comments. We all learn. So thanks! Looks like we basically will go for the list we had. The i9 CPU seems proven. Possibly we get another, newer, version of it though.

TheRhino wrote on 9/2/2019, 9:25 AM

@Martin L
I chose the Asus Z390 WS Pro workstation-class motherboard because it has a PLX chip which manages the Z390 & 9900K's limited 16-lane architecture.  It allows me to fill ALL of the PCIe slots with a M.2 adapter, Blackmagic capture card, 10G network card, hardware RAID controller, etc. and then prioritizes/manages resources to maximize throughput.  Real world speeds are fast because the PLX chip allows the system to fully saturate 16-lanes to the CPU regardless of which onboard PCIe lanes the data is coming from...

I then filled the (2) motherboard M.2 slots with 2TB M.2's setup as a 4TB RAID0 SOURCE video drive.  I also installed a U.2 to M.2 adapter to utilize the U2 slot for another 2TB M.2 & paired it with a PCIe M.2 for another 4TB  RAID0 SOURCE video drive.  (4) SATA drives are connected to a RAID0 PCIe hardware controller and I run a 500GB SSD (OS) & hot swap tray off of the motherboard's internal SATA connectors...  Unfortunately the other onboard SATA connectors are disabled when the M.2 is enabled, so I have (2) Blu-ray burners connected to USB 3.0 ports via adapters. It sounds a little crazy, but it all works perfectly. All RAID0 files are saved elsewhere across the speedy 10G network.

Not including the price of the 2TB M.2 drives, case, etc. I already had, in April I spent $1,350 (US) to upgrade from an old Xeon to a 9900K, (open box) Asus Z390 WS, 32GB DDR4 (2x16), Corsair H150i CPU cooler, and (refurbished) liquid-cooled VEGA 64.  IMO this 9900K (@ 4.9ghz) system is one of the best bang/bucks available until the 16-core AMD 3950X becomes available (albeit at a higher price...)  Currently the 12-core AMD 3900X is not that much faster than a 9900K & requires faster/pricier DDR4 to overclock well.  Meanwhile the 9900K also has QSV which provides a boost for H.264 renders, etc. To enable BOTH QSV & Vega64 I connect monitors to both the onboard VGA & VEGA64... BOTH GPUs are active during QSV renders allowing this system to complete the "RedCarTest" noted on these forums in just 14 seconds @ 4.9 ghz and 13 seconds if I overclock it to 5.0 ghz.

Last changed by TheRhino on 9/2/2019, 10:35 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Workstation D with $1,350 USD of upgrades in April, 2019
--$500 9900K @ 5.0ghz
--$140 Corsair H150i liquid cooling with 360mm radiator (3 fans)
--$200 open box Asus Z390 WS (PLX chip manages 4/5 PCIe slots)
--$160 32GB of G.Skill DDR4 3000
--$350 refurbished, but like-new Radeon Vega 64 LQ (liquid cooled)

Renders Vegas11 "Red Car Test" (AMD VCE) in 13s when clocked at 4.9 ghz
(note: BOTH onboard Intel & Vega64 show utilization during QSV & VCE renders...)

Source Video1 = 4TB RAID0--(2) 2TB M.2 on motherboard in RAID0
Source Video2 = 4TB RAID0--(2) 2TB M.2 (1) via U.2 adapter & (1) on separate PCIe card
Target Video1 = 16TB RAID10--(4) 8TB SATA hot-swap drives on PCIe RAID10 card

10G Network using used $30 Mellanox2 Adapters & new $135 10G Switch
Copy of Work Files, Source & Output Video, OS Images on QNAP 653b NAS
Blackmagic Decklink PCie card for capturing from tape, etc.
(2) internal BR Burners connected via USB 3.0 to SATA adapters
Old Cooler Master CM Stacker ATX case with (13) 5.25" front drive-bays holds & cools everything.

Workstations A, B & C are older 6-core 4.0ghz Xeon 5660 or I7 980x on Asus P6T6 motherboards.

$999 Walmart Evoo 17 Laptop with I7-9750H 6-core CPU, RTX 2060, (2) M.2 bays & (1) SSD bay...

Martin L wrote on 9/4/2019, 2:42 AM

Interesting. Thanks!

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/4/2019, 12:45 PM

But then again... all the testing I've done myself indicates that pcie lane counts have little to no impact on rendering performance. I tested on my 9900k system when I was building it by letting the gpu run at x16 vrs limiting it to x8 in bios. When I did that it had no effect on Vegas rendering or play performance. I tested this with a view towards implementing an m.2 riser card to boost my mobo support from 2 to 4 m.2's with the ability to raid0 them all, at the cost of dropping the gpu pcie slot to x8. But when I benched raising the m.2 performance that way it also showed zero effect on any aspect of Vegas performance... so I ended up just keeping it simple with 2 non-raided m.2 drives and leaving well enough alone. Here's a good published test report suggesting that all the hoopla on cpu pcie lane counts might be a non-issue for video rendering.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Core-i7-7820X-vs-Core-i9-7900X-Do-PCI-E-Lanes-Matter-For-GPU-Rendering-1030/

Cameras: Canon XF305, JVC GV-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line. (Mar 2020: testing Zcam E2)
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (integrated Intel UHD-630 & Nvidia GTX-1050Ti)
Road: Intel NUC i7 8809g 32gb (integrated AMD VegaM 4gb graphics and Intel HD630)
Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics and integrated Intel UHD630)
Workstation2: e5 1650v4 128 gb (Sapphire Nitro+ Vega64 8gb graphics)
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX5700xt Navi 8gb graphics)
currently Vegas 17.452

Chief24 wrote on 9/4/2019, 2:02 PM

O.K., about those PCI-e lanes. That article specifically is testing for the limiting factor of a GPU, from using a total of 16 PCI-e lanes compared to using 8 PCI-e lanes, for the Graphics Processor only. This same sort of test was done when the Industry moved from using PCI-e Version 2.x to the current 3.x variant, and 1.x to 2.x as well, with what I am sure AMD did testing from 3.x to 4.x. The test is utilized for seeing if the newer version and/or number of lanes effects the components, typically a GPU, Capture Card, RAID card, or something like the nVidia Tesla cards. The overall number (16, 20, 24, 28, 40, 44, 48, 60, 64, etc.) is usually designating the number of lanes available from the CPU to the different PCI-e slots on the motherboard, and how many lanes are available to the motherboard chipset from the CPU.

So, an Intel X99 platform will be dependent on the type of CPU that is utilized. I currently have an i7-6800K Broadwell-E on a MSI X99A Gaming 7 motherboard. This particular CPU (and the Haswell-E i7-5820K) only have a total of 28 lanes of PCI-e 3.0; and depending on the motherboard manufacturer, can be allocated in various amounts to the PCI-e slots, with a total of 4 of the 28 (called DMI for Intel) connecting between CPU and the X99 chipset. The chipset has its own amount of PCI-e lanes, in different combinations, which all combined, still only connect via the DMI.

Other boards/chipsets/CPUs', have different amounts of lanes, or versions. The post from @TheRhino for his most recent build, shows what a manufacturer can do with lane allocation, including additional connectivity. What is this for? Simple. So we can add more High-Speed Interface devices such as NVME M.2 drives, more capture cards, more GPU's, more RAID cards, etc. To include newer versions of these devices, at the version inherent within the CPU. Though, the new Ryzen 2 3xxx series have a newer version 4.x of PCI-e, it is only available when using the newer X570 Motherboards/chipset. If you place one of the new CPU's in an older X370/X470 and B-equivalents, the PCI-e version drops to 3.x. Will it hurt GPU, or other devices? Probably not, since most of the devices that are added into a typical "Consumer" computer, does not come close to "saturating" those lanes, especially if the CPU/Motherboard is at PCI-e Version 3.x.

Now, my signature rig, is a ThreadRipper 1950x system, and probably the best thing I like about it is how I can use the PCI-e lanes as I need. Got an Sapphire AMD Radeon VII in one slot at 16x, a SoundBlaster ZX sound card in one of the x1 slots, and have an ASUS Quad M.2 card in another x16 slot, which within the BIOS/UEFI is set at x4, x4, x4, x4; meaning I can have a total of FOUR (4) NVME PCI-e 3.0x4 M.2 drives on that card, for extra storage (don't have it in RAID) - of which I currently occupy two of the connections. But, the drives operate at full speed and seen within the system just as if I had put in a 4TB spinning Hard Drive or SSD. Remember, still need the power of the CPU to perform the necessary tasks given it. Doesn't matter if you have 4 M.2 PCI-e 3.0x4 drives in a RAID 0 configuration using enterprise class drives, if the CPU can't keep up, you are looking at errors or possible throttling/shutdowns.

That is what having those lanes are for. So, looking at what @Martin L has listed for his future small Grazie 4k Monsta', looks pretty good. And based on what Martin said initially about his current and possible future work flow/requirement, the specs seem pretty good to me. Only thing I might change is a slightly larger case, like the Fractal Design R6, with some good Positive Pressure fans in the front/rear, and also changing the CPU cooler to the slightly higher Dark Rock 4 at least, since that i9-9900K is known to get a little "toasty", even with no over-clocking due to its high Boost Clocks natively.

Can't wait to hear how this "baby Monsta'" performs for you!

Self Build: Asus ROG Strix X399-e Gaming with 2950X (be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro TR4) @ stock; 64GB Corsair 2666 Mhz; OS-Intel 750 800GB, Project Media-Samsung 960 EVO 1TB & 970 EVO 1TB; Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD for various (Magix Xara Photo & Graphics Designer Pro 17), Render, Other Assets; XFX AMD Radeon VII; Samsung 32 Inch UHD 3840x2160; Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit (1909 18363.900); (2) Intel 660p 2TB PCI-e on Asus Quad M.2x16; Magix Vegas Pro 17 Edit (452), Magix Movie Studio Platinum 16 Suite (175); DaVinci Resolve 16.2.3; HitFilm Express 14.3; Canon EOS 80D; GoPro Hero 5+ & 6 Black & (2) 7 Black; Sony FDR AX-53 & AX-33 HandyCams; Sound Forge Audio Studio 12.6; SonicFire Pro 6.4.3 (with Vegas Pro/Movie Studio Plug-in); Creative SoundBlaster Zx sound card; Magix Music Maker Premium 2019

Barry W. Hull wrote on 9/4/2019, 3:48 PM

Martin, curious, how much is that fancy new machine going to cost? I'm sort of in the market myself, wondering what I'm getting myself in to. Thanks.

Martin L wrote on 9/6/2019, 1:47 AM

So, looking at what @Martin L has listed for his future small Grazie 4k Monsta', looks pretty good. And based on what Martin said initially about his current and possible future work flow/requirement, the specs seem pretty good to me. Only thing I might change is a slightly larger case, like the Fractal Design R6, with some good Positive Pressure fans in the front/rear, and also changing the CPU cooler to the slightly higher Dark Rock 4 at least, since that i9-9900K is known to get a little "toasty", even with no over-clocking due to its high Boost Clocks natively.

Can't wait to hear how this "baby Monsta'" performs for you!

Thanks. I already ordered the parts and the PC guy is currently building the new machine, soo too late to change box and fans. Let's just hope it will be fine anyway. I'll let you know how it works when it's up and going.

Martin, curious, how much is that fancy new machine going to cost? I'm sort of in the market myself, wondering what I'm getting myself in to. Thanks.

I haven't received the bill yet, but it will be somewhere around US$2000, perhaps a few bucks more.

Martin L wrote on 9/6/2019, 1:51 AM

Another thing, I haven't ordered any screen yet, nor keyboard/mouse. I have an existing LG Flatron ips 23.1' that I will keep and use with the new machine. But I need one or two more. Any thoughts on good screens and keyboard for a decent price?

Up til now I've used two screens beside each other, stretching oout Vegas to cover both. Does anyone of you guys use three screen? If so, what is your setup? And what connections, DVI, HDMI, VGA....?

I will also continue to use my ShuttlePro v2 control, if it will work with V17.

Grazie wrote on 9/6/2019, 2:15 AM
I will also continue to use my ShuttlePro v2 control, if it will work with V17.

@Martin L - Hi Martin! Yes it does. Using every day.

Martin L wrote on 9/6/2019, 2:25 AM
I will also continue to use my ShuttlePro v2 control, if it will work with V17.

@Martin L - Hi Martin! Yes it does. Using every day.

Great!

Martin L wrote on 9/12/2019, 3:51 AM

My new monsta arrived yesterday. The final specs are on my profile.

Installed VP 17 and it runs flawlessly. It opens very quickly and has super fast and smooth playback as I can see so far. For the first time I can playback full HD in Best (full) in 25 fps without a hickup. NB Titler Pro 6 installed and is working. Contour Shuttle Pro v2 as well. BCC 2019 and Mocha Pro 2019 seem to work fine too.

Sonicfire Pro 6.4 installed and after finally realizing that it should now be used through Vegas Extensions menu (not the Script menu anymore) it works perfectly. No more stuttering like it did the last couple of years on my old machine.

Didn't install all the other old plugins yet, like Sapphire, Hitfilm, iZotope, ProDad etc. Didn't install Microsoft Office yet either, nor my old workhorse Adobe photoshop CS5.5. Nor did I install Sonar Producer or any other audio software yet. Will try to keep it as clean as possible.

I haven't done anything really heavy yet but it sure feels way way better than the old machine.

I still use two screens only. My swedish kronor ran out. Perhaps later on I'll add a third display, for preview in 4K with HDR, on a separate stand that can be turned towards the customer. And another set of speakers for that - with a sub base box. Of course I will also need a comfy leather sofa, a table and mini fridge for drinks to the customer. Perhaps a foot bath too. And a massage chair for him after the preview of his film, in case he is not happy with it yet. :)

Thus far - I am totally happy with the new machine. Hope it lasts another 8 years or so.

Now, since my Adobe Production Premium CS5.5 is old and outdated but I need Photoshop, and I don't like to get an Adobe subscription, what could be a good alternative to Photoshop? Does Magix have anything of the sort that can somehow match PS? It needs to handle RAW images from modern cameras like my Canon EOS R.

Cheers

Martin

Marco. wrote on 9/12/2019, 4:05 AM

"what could be a good alternative to Photoshop?"

I use Affinity Photo instead of Photoshop.

Martin L wrote on 9/12/2019, 4:12 AM

"what could be a good alternative to Photoshop?"

I use Affinity Photo instead of Photoshop.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Martin L wrote on 9/12/2019, 4:45 AM

Checked it. Affinity Photo doesn't support EOS R Raw files yet (CR3 format). So for now not an option.