Missing bt709 tags rendering "limited" from 32 bit full

Mindmatter wrote on 9/26/2025, 2:00 PM

I just uploaded a studio RGB version as i remembered it was recommended for youtube, but it just doesn't look quite right. The blacks and general contrast and saturation don't look as they should compared to my full range version here on my PC..
EDIT: I just uploaded a full range version to test, but that doesn't look right either. Some scenes ( not all ) are oversaturated and the blacks aren't totally crushed but way too contrasted.The DJI drone footage also becomes too contrasted.

So what's the solution and current consensus for YT?

Thanks!
EDIT: I just saw that all the XAVCI 422 clips from my FX3 as well as the DJI footage reads as "undefined" in the color range proporties. Could that be the problem?

Last changed by RogerS

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Comments

Mindmatter wrote on 9/26/2025, 3:39 PM

so how do I set the render to "Rec709/limitedRange"? The only option I know of to limit the range level to 16-235 is the studio level filter. I just read that YT misinterprets footage if there is no BT709 tag. I can't see any such tag in Media Info my Vegas renders, and I just read I need to use ffmpeg to actually add that tag.
Is that so?

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Mindmatter wrote on 9/26/2025, 5:34 PM

I don't think that is entirely true.There is nothing confusing about it, and the undefined color space is an issue you can research on this forum.
I just solved the problem after some in depth research by actually using ffmpeg to add the right 709 tag to the Vegas render. Not being that tech savvy, it took me quite some work and help of Grok AI.
Fact is, the new tag in the new upload now finally gets Youtube to display my video correctly.
Media Info fails to show the right tags, I had to use ffmpeg command prompts again to see the missing meta data.
Now, as far as Vegas goes, this seems to be a real problem. It should add those tags right away to avoid YT interpretation conflicts. I'm surprised this has never been adressed.
These are missing and also not dhown in Media Info:

colorspace=bt709

primaries=bt709

transfer=bt709

range=tv
And btw, I definitely had to render with studio levels, coming out of a 10bit 422 32 full range project with ACES on.

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/26/2025, 5:51 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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RogerS wrote on 9/26/2025, 7:37 PM

Yes you render to studio/video/limited range for YouTube still.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/26/2025, 10:07 PM

@Mindmatter You don't want to upload rgb to YouTube... it should be limited range yuv. Which is the Vegas default. You don't need to set anything. If you want to preview the render outside of Vegas to see what it will look like on YouTube, you need to do a limited to full view transform in the viewer. How you do that is different for different viewers... I know mpc-be and mpc-hc have ways to do it but I'm not sure about vlc.

The YouTube upload might not match your Vegas preview, however, unless the project is set to full range. Because YouTube applies a limited to full range transform to all uploads.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 2:28 AM

Well obviously in this case, Vegas didn‘t apply its default and tagged the render wrong, as there was a significant level issue on YT because it wasn’t expanded to full range.The meta data did read YUV limited though on the first renders, but ffmeg clearly showed the missng 709 tags..

I never had this issue with YT before, but I didn‘t use to work in ACES, so I think Vegas doesn‘t add the 709 tags when rendering from a 32 bit ACES project? Levels used to be correct when rendering from an 8 bit full range without a levels filter.

Unfortunately I saw the problem too late and I cannot change the original upload anymore as the link had been sent to too many people already, but I now uploaded the correct version too.

In case you want to see for yourself and confirm the issue, heres the 2 to compare: first link is the usual render with the missing tags and the wrong levels, second link is the one with correct levels with 709 tags added with ffmpeg.

1:

2:

If I had known what I know now when I wrote the post, I‘d have changed the title mentioning the 32 bit ACES issue.

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/27/2025, 2:40 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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RogerS wrote on 9/27/2025, 2:57 AM

Can you share a screenshot of the render template and project properties? There are a lot of variables here.

RogerS wrote on 9/27/2025, 2:58 AM

What would you like to change the title to? Moderators can edit posts

Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 3:35 AM

What would you like to change the title to? Moderators can edit posts

Thanks!
If I understood all of this correctly, it's specific to rendering from a 32bit full range ACES project, as I had never seen the issue when exporting from 8 bit full range projects.
So I think the title should be:
Missing bt709 tags when rendering "limited" from ACES 32 bit video levels
Unless I formulated that wrong, but that's my conclusion from this whole thing.

Can you share a screenshot of the render template and project properties? There are a lot of variables here.

I'm not on my main PC right now, will do asap.

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/27/2025, 3:37 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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EricLNZ wrote on 9/27/2025, 5:44 AM

So I think the title should be:
Missing bt709 tags when rendering "limited" from ACES 32 bit video levels

@Mindmatter Unfortunately it won't fit as titles are limited to 70 characters. Yours is 73, just over. How would you like it?

Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 5:48 AM

thanks!
so how about
Missing bt709 tags rendering "limited" from ACES 32 bit full

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EricLNZ wrote on 9/27/2025, 5:52 AM

@Mindmatter Title change done.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 7:30 AM

thanks a bunch!

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Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 8:31 AM

Can you share a screenshot of the render template and project properties? There are a lot of variables here.


@RogerS here you go:

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/27/2025, 8:32 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/27/2025, 4:21 PM

Well obviously in this case, Vegas didn‘t apply its default and tagged the render wrong, as there was a significant level issue on YT because it wasn’t expanded to full range.

As an fyi, YouTube doesn't care what the metadata says, if anything, about range. It always does a limited to full range transform no matter what. If you were to go into the render template and change the default render to full range, YouTube would faithfully and without fail blow out all the highlights. Been there, done that. It might be strictly an Aces issue, however. Aces projects are always full range but the renders should still be limited range for YouTube.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/27/2025, 4:32 PM

well what happened to my video after I changed the meta data obviously proves you wrong.

Why do you insist on denying what I went to great length to show, explain and prove here??Did you even read my posts or look at the 2 videos? Why do you think ffmpeg even exists?

Fyi: The first version was rendered limited too by applying the levels filter but WAS NOT transformed to full range because of missing tags, my full range render got crushed, as expected ,as a test, and once I added the bt709 tags to my limited render, it finally looked right.

 

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/27/2025, 4:36 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/28/2025, 11:48 AM

well what happened to my video after I changed the meta data obviously proves you wrong.

Why do you insist on denying what I went to great length to show, explain and prove here??Did you even read my posts or look at the 2 videos? Why do you think ffmpeg even exists?

@Mindmatter Your most rececent settings screen shot shows the project set to 32bit video levels which is not consistent with YouTube processing or Aces. If you change the project from full to limited, I'd expect it to look different and need re-grading. You definitely proved to yourself that YouTube processing ruins full-range renders after upload. If you're also trying to prove that you can look at a Vegas preview of a limited-range project and get YouTube to do something different with a Vegas default limited range render, by embedding the tag you want in metadata, so it looks like the Vegas preview, and want Vegas developers to spend their time embedding the metadata you think does that, you might just want to adjust your project setting while you wait for that to happen.

I get the inference that you used ffmpeg to embed the tag you want into the metadata. If you post the ffmpeg command line you used... I'd be happy to confirm that for you. And post my own screen shots of the Vegas preview next to the YouTube player after upload.

Btw, from related posts I've seen from others, I'm thinking there may be a difference with how vp23 is displaying limited-range projects compared to older Vegas versions which I'm also curious to explore. My own workflow, setting my projects to full-range, is in fact consistent with YouTube processing default renders from vp23 and all prior versions of Vegas.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/28/2025, 12:15 PM

Regarding Aces, I don't use it myself. But I wonder if Aces is compatible with upload to YouTube. Not so much because of color-space metadata, but the difference in gamma. When I change my projects from 8bit full to 32bit full, I also have to change the gamma from 1.0 to 2.222 so the color and everything does not change in Vegas or YouTube. But that makes the project incompatible with Aces. If I was using Aces and was unable to do that, I wonder if YouTube would show it correctly. I think Aces users here should know the answer to that.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/28/2025, 4:26 PM
 

@Mindmatter Your most rececent settings screen shot shows the project set to 32bit video levels which is not consistent with YouTube processing or Aces. If you change the project from full to limited, I'd expect it to look different and need re-grading. You definitely proved to yourself that YouTube processing ruins full-range renders after upload. If you're also trying to prove that you can look at a Vegas preview of a limited-range project and get YouTube to do something different with a Vegas default limited range render, by embedding the tag you want in metadata, so it looks like the Vegas preview, and want Vegas developers to spend their time embedding the metadata you think does that, you might just want to adjust your project setting while you wait for that to happen.

I get the inference that you used ffmpeg to embed the tag you want into the metadata. If you post the ffmpeg command line you used... I'd be happy to confirm that for you. And post my own screen shots of the Vegas preview next to the YouTube player after upload.

 

What do you mean not consistent with ACES? I was 32 bit ACES with view transform off, as I was using LUTs for my S log 3 project..

Here's your command line:

ffmpeg -i output.mp4 -c:v copy -c:a copy -metadata:s:v:0 color_space=bt709 -metadata:s:v:0 color_primaries=bt709 -metadata:s:v:0 color_trc=bt709 -metadata:s:v:0 color_range=tv output_tagged.mp4

As it seems that you still don't take seriously what I'm trying to tell you or read my upper explanation or looked at the 2 videos I linked, one last time for you:

I had first made a usual render without any level filter, as I usually do in 8 bit full. It turned out crushed on YT, which surprised me. I then remembered a discussion here about 32 bit full projects possibly needing a level transform when rendering.

So I made a new render, this time with the Studio RGB filter on. It looked washed out, as usual, BUT surprisingly, Youtube didn't expand it to full range. I had thought to understand that YT automatically expands limited renders to full range, so I thought I made some mistake along the way and actually needed to upload a full range version after all, which, again, turned out wrong, as expected.

All that didn't make any sense, so I researched the issue and reason online. Grok AI explained it might be the missing tags, showed me how to use ffmpeg. All this was new to me, as my usual 8 bit renders never had that problem, as Vegas usually automatically renders the needed values. when working in 8 bit video levels.

I then ran THAT SAME LIMITED render through FFmpeg to add the bt709 tags., checked the metadata again, now they were added.

I uploaded the now tagged version to YT, and now YT displays the blacks and colors correctly.

So what, I ask you, is the logical conclusion here? It is that the TAGS changed and solved the issue!

What else can I possibly tell you? What is it you don't seem to want to understand? Why should I "want to adjust my project settings" after everything I repeatedly explained to you about my project settings, about which nothing was either unusual or wrong? Fact is that for some whatever reason, those tags were missing, whatever my "project settings".

 

 

 

Last changed by Mindmatter on 9/28/2025, 4:37 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

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RogerS wrote on 9/29/2025, 12:31 AM

I'm finding there is what looks like a levels mismatch between the output file (MagixAVC with NVENC) and the original ACES project.

This example is slog3 footage.

MPC Black and VP 23 look the same with the rendered footage (as far as I can tell, doing a quick check on my laptop screen). However the metadata does show a limited range flag. VEGAS is also reading it correctly as limited, not undefined.

So I'm confused as to what's going on and want to do more testing.

Was your project gamma 2.2?

(Note 32-bit full with view transform off is not ACES. 32 bit video is also not ACES but requires you to manually keep highlight levels no greater than 235. I'll redo tests later with a LUT instead).

 

Last changed by RogerS on 9/29/2025, 1:59 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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VEGAS Pro 21.208
VEGAS Pro 22.250
VEGAS Pro 23.278

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark (works with VP 16+): https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

RogerS wrote on 9/29/2025, 12:35 AM

With 32 bit full view transform/ ACES off the rendered file and the source with a LUT applied are a perfect match. VEGAS 32-bit full metadata includes correct levels metadata (tested with MagixAVC with NVIDIA NVENC on my RTX 4060 laptop).

Video
ID                             : 1
Format                         : AVC
Format/Info                    : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                 : High@L4
Format settings                : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC         : Yes
Format settings, Reference fra : 4 frames
Codec ID                       : avc1
Codec ID/Info                  : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                       : 8 s 509 ms
Bit rate                       : 12.5 Mb/s
Width                          : 1 920 pixels
Height                         : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 8 bits
Scan type                      : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.252
Stream size                    : 12.7 MiB (98%)
Writing library                : AVC Coding
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : 2025-09-29 05:34:17 UTC
Tagged date                    : 2025-09-29 05:34:17 UTC
Color range                    : Limited
Codec configuration box        : avcC

Last changed by RogerS on 9/29/2025, 1:59 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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VEGAS Pro 21.208
VEGAS Pro 22.250
VEGAS Pro 23.278

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark (works with VP 16+): https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Mindmatter wrote on 9/29/2025, 4:44 AM

@RogerS thank you for doing all the testing!

Yes my gamma was 2.2. I didn't really see an issue with the highlights on YT, but rather with the blacks, which were definitely not true black, and the saturation being somewhat washed out.

This issue admittedly still confuses me.Why do I have to limit the highlights when working in video levels? Why was the YT display correct after adding the tags then?

Sorry, I'm really not well versed in all the maths behind this

I started to get confused when the limited version remained limited on YT but the full version got crushed in the shadows. So neither was right, which didn't make sense.

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/29/2025, 9:49 AM

@Mindmatter Thanks for providing the better detail on what you did including the ffmpeg script which I'll try out. Btw, setting your project to full-range is different from using FX to change the video itself... In my workflow I set my project to full-range, do not use the Vegas Levels-FX to alter levels, and render with Vegas standard presets which are by default set to limited-range on the preset's project-tab. The only Vegas complication is going from 8bit full to 32bit full in Vegas which turns on Aces gamma and view transforms by default and needs to be undone. My simple workflow causes my YouTube uploads to exactly match my Vegas preview. There is one other complication, which is getting an external viewer to match the YouTube limited-to-full conversion that it always does to uploads. But it's easy to configure MPC viewers to do the view-transform... then Vegas, MPC, and YouTube all match. What I'm really most curious about is whether I can go back to limited-range projects in Vegas and adapt your ffmpeg script to control what YouTube does to the upload so the Vegas preview matches it.

Btw, been thinking about Aces even though I can't use it in Vegas thanks to it's proprietary implementation. Aces seems joined at the hip with HDR. Are you able to turn on HDR in Windows? That requires that you have an HDR monitor. I think that would then activate HDR render presets in Vegas which might put the metadata you want into Aces renders. I think YouTube has some sort of HDR compatibility which might facilitate Aces/YouTube compatibility. The only HDR capable display I have is my Zenbook laptop, so I can't explore it too deeply on the workhorse desktops I use in my workflow.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/29/2025, 9:58 AM

@Howard-Vigorita

thanks for the explanations.

As I mentioned, I still need to get my head around some of it, as I only recently started to work in 10bit or 32 bit projects respectively, mainly to avoid banding and do more precise gradings.

I apologize for getting a bit uptight in my replies, I spent too many late night hours troubleshooting and sittting behind screens.

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RogerS wrote on 9/29/2025, 11:35 PM

Take a look at the footage you rendered with VEGAS in 8 bit or 32 bit video levels in 22 or older to see exactly what the file is. See the histogram scope and waveform. Is any significant data above 235 or below 16? If so for your purpose it's a defective file and metadata won't save it.