【OFX Keyframe curve bug 】

Comments

NickHope wrote on 4/23/2018, 2:02 AM

Which FX is that? Which parameter has the problem? Which version and build of Vegas Pro?

lan-mLMC wrote on 4/23/2018, 9:58 PM

Which FX is that? Which parameter has the problem? Which version and build of Vegas Pro?

WIN10 1709 ,VEGAS 15 build321, Piccture in Picture ' parameter——position,

 

Actually all vegas and all OFX has the problem, I think it's a Design flaw. The OFX's Keyframe curve can't accurately control parameter.

Former user wrote on 4/23/2018, 10:02 PM

Did you try adjusting the curves on the nodes? (the link shows one active, but not the other)

lan-mLMC wrote on 4/23/2018, 10:14 PM

Did you try adjusting the curves on the nodes? (the link shows one active, but not the other)

Two pictures are the same. Node is normal, I want to use curve to control smoothly, but it seems vegas' this function is defective. I can't get a more fast effect than the preset "fast fade".

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 1:47 AM

Your first image link is broken for me. Please post images directly to this forum using this icon:

matthias-krutz wrote on 4/24/2018, 2:00 AM

I can confirm this problem. When switching from lanes to curves, manual control is possible. This hand-drawn curve will only be applied correctly if there is no direction reversal. Overshoots are not interpreted correctly.

Just checked for VP15, VM14 and SMS12.

Edit: It seems that the values from the drawn curve are always ignored. The ProType Titler shows how it should work.

Last changed by matthias-krutz on 4/24/2018, 4:50 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

Desktop: Ryzen R7 2700, RAM 32 GB, X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, Radeon RX 5700 8GB, Win10 2004

Laptop: T420, W10, i5-2520M 4GB, SSD, HD Graphics 3000

VEGAS Pro 14-18, Movie Studio 12 Platinum, Vegasaur, HOS, HitfilmPro

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 2:09 AM

Anyone care to post a simple step-by-step walkthrough or a project using generated media to illustrate the problem?

matthias-krutz wrote on 4/24/2018, 2:41 AM

Last changed by NickHope on 9/17/2019, 12:57 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Reason: Trying to get video working

Desktop: Ryzen R7 2700, RAM 32 GB, X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, Radeon RX 5700 8GB, Win10 2004

Laptop: T420, W10, i5-2520M 4GB, SSD, HD Graphics 3000

VEGAS Pro 14-18, Movie Studio 12 Platinum, Vegasaur, HOS, HitfilmPro

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 5:17 AM

It's more serious for me. Manual curve animation just doesn't work at all. Whatever shape the curve is, the result is just the same as a "Smooth Fade".

I tested by eyeballing it in the Gaussian Blur FX. Then I tried it with the Pixelate FX, a) because it's the one that's shown in the VEGAS Help (so it should work), and b) because it's quantifiable, by counting the number of pixels. However it is a bit tricky to test because you don't really get any countable pixels until value 0.9.

This happens for me in VP12 as well as VP15, so it's a bug that appears to go back a long time.

Can anyone show that the outcome of any manual curve animation is any different from a "Smooth Fade" in any FX in any Vegas version?

matthias-krutz wrote on 4/24/2018, 5:45 AM

I think that is the same with all FX. I have not yet seen where it works. In ProType Titler it works correctly, but there it is part of the generated media, not an FX.

If you set a new keyframe on the curve, the current numeric value is taken over and you can see the deviation.

Last changed by matthias-krutz on 4/24/2018, 6:16 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Desktop: Ryzen R7 2700, RAM 32 GB, X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, Radeon RX 5700 8GB, Win10 2004

Laptop: T420, W10, i5-2520M 4GB, SSD, HD Graphics 3000

VEGAS Pro 14-18, Movie Studio 12 Platinum, Vegasaur, HOS, HitfilmPro

Wolfgang S. wrote on 4/24/2018, 7:16 AM

What seems to happen to me is that the spline curves are adjusted in a way where you end up with overswinging.

If you enable the curve mode and then the "manual split" mode for a keyframe, and move the endpoints up a lot, then you will end higher then the next keyframe. It is up to the user to adjust in the Manual split the spline function in a way how it makes sense to him.

See for example this Picture, where such a function is used in a drawing to some extrem extrend.

http://www.corel.com/img/content/products/cdgsx5/tutorials/curve_tools/CDGSX5_Tut07_Drawing_lines3.jpg

But that is what this function is for!

So I think there is nothing wrong here. But one has to adjust that with care.

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matthias-krutz wrote on 4/24/2018, 8:25 AM

The problem is that the numeric value does not correspond to the curve. This is clearly visible when overshooting. You can also see it when a new keyframe is added to a drawn graph. Then the point jumps to the right place.

Desktop: Ryzen R7 2700, RAM 32 GB, X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, Radeon RX 5700 8GB, Win10 2004

Laptop: T420, W10, i5-2520M 4GB, SSD, HD Graphics 3000

VEGAS Pro 14-18, Movie Studio 12 Platinum, Vegasaur, HOS, HitfilmPro

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 8:32 AM

Demonstrating the issue with Brightness and Contrast:

Link to demo project

Marco. wrote on 4/24/2018, 9:25 AM

I think the misunderstanding is that the curve itself would represent virtual keyframe positions (and so parameter values), but the curve only visualize the speed of change between the given keyframes, it's not the visualization of the parameter values. It's temporal interpolation and the curve only shows how fast or slow parameter change between the keyframes.

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 9:44 AM

I think the misunderstanding is that the curve itself would represent virtual keyframe positions (and so parameter values), but the curve only visualize the speed of change between the given keyframes, it's not the visualization of the parameter values.

But wouldn't the net result of that be that the curve would approximate a series of virtual keyframes anyway? To my mind they're much the same thing.

Unless I've completely missed the point, there is no way that the brightness at 3.5 secs in my demo above should be equal for each track, or that moving the curve's tangency handles around should not significantly adjust the brightness.

Former user wrote on 4/24/2018, 9:47 AM

Nick, you are right in that is how it should work. But it appears that it doesn't.

 

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 9:56 AM

Quite surprising that this bug doesn't seem to have been mentioned before. I guess most users are happy with the standard curve shapes. I've never used a manual curve.

I just want adjust parameter by  Keyframe curve to get the very smooth motion effects.

just like what after effects 's keyframe curve can do.

@lan-mLMC If it worked correctly, the curve shape in your 2nd picture link would give an "overshoot" in motion and the picture-in-picture would "bounce back" to the final position at the end of the animation. Is that really what you want?

Marco. wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:00 AM

"But wouldn't the net result of that be that the curve would approximate a series of virtual keyframes anyway?"

Virtual keyframes would almost always be there when animating FX parameters. Changing the interpolation curve now would only change the distance of those virtual keyframes.

Here is another screenshot to demo:

There are three keyframes which represent same luma value of the HSL FX. Now you may think the highest and the lowest peaks of the curve would represent different luma values, the lowest to represent lower luma values and the highest to represent higher luma values.
But because the three keyframes represent same luma values and curve just represent the speed of animation between (same values), there will be no change at all along that whole curve.
Expected behaviour.

NickHope wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:09 AM

"But wouldn't the net result of that be that the curve would approximate a series of virtual keyframes anyway?"

Virtual keyframes would almost always be there when animating FX parameters. Changing the interpolation curve now would only change the distance of those virtual keyframes.

Here is another screenshot to demo:

There are three keyframes which represent same luma value of the HSL FX. Now you may think the highest and the lowest peaks of the curve would represent different luma values, the lowest to represent lower luma values and the highest to represent higher luma values.
But because the three keyframes represent same luma values and curve just represent the speed of animation between (same values), there will be no change at all along that whole curve.
Expected behaviour.

I agree with all of that.

But when the 3 keyframes represent different luma values, the behaviour of the manual curves is totally bugged.

Marco. wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:14 AM

Could you share a sample project?

The only buggy result (in a user sense) I could repro was when pushing the curve interpolation that hard it peaks go to infinite. That would kind of reset the parameter to one of its scale end.

Marco. wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:28 AM

Another thing one should take care of when using Pan/Crop or Track Animation, there are two different types of interpolations. The temporal interpolation which is available via the keyframes' context options, and the spatial interpolation which is available via the smoothness slider of the editing area only. There is no such a thing like spatial interpolation for the OFX and no kind of interpolation which would cause parameter swings exceeding a keyframe defintion of OFX.

So dependend on which interplation type is modified, it is hard or even impossible to compare Track Animation or Pan/Crop animations with any of the OFX animations.

matthias-krutz wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:28 AM

In ProType Titler we can see how it should work, I think.

Quite surprising that this bug doesn't seem to have been mentioned before. I guess most users are happy with the standard curve shapes. I've never used a manual curve.

The faulty behavior was the reason why I did not take it.

Former user wrote on 4/24/2018, 10:32 AM

I have worked with curves a lot in motion (not in vegas but other NLEs) and what Nick describes is normal. The curve represents the actual "path" the motion would take, which sometimes causes it to overshoot the keyframe positions. I would think that if Vegas curves were working correctly, then the same thing would happen in colors or any other effects. The speed between keyframes is determined by the timeline, not the curve.The curve can't represent the speed or else the timeline would be useless.For example, if the keyframes are spaced 10 frames apart, they will always be ten frames apart regardless of how wide the curve curves.