"What is that?..Final Couch Potato"

Wow, aren't you the clever one.

THIS is why PC'ers are looked down on as uninspired, jealous little runts.

thanks

and......The last thing I want to do is piss off a MAC FCP deity

".The last thing I want to do is piss off a MAC FCP deity " ;-) ha ha.... the new Sony's PA with VEGAS probably has cause an increased in extra Epresso shots '-) . Regardless of a claims of computer greatness, Apple still is very much iPOD and itunes company.... must add the iPhone . The iPhone and iPod Touch are strong products with WiFi that are help driving the WiFi market.

"Apple still is very much iPOD and itunes company.... must add the iPhone . "

Yup.
Built specifically for the high school preppies and the ill-informed. You know.... the type that like to run around comparing label names as opposed to actual products.

Primarily why I hate Apple so much... the great land of yuppies. Funny... when I think about Apple I get this picture in my head of some spoiled brat driving around in Daddy's sports car wearing one of those silly white driving scarfs and driving gloves. It's everything I absolutely detest.

In fact I would hazzard to guess that that's how FCP really gained its popularity.... the great land of Hollywood Yuppies.

"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door."

In all sincerity, if the above is indeed true, then why hasn't the world beat a path to Apple's door?

And...

If Microsoft is so horrible, then why hasn't someone built a better system?

when I think about Apple I get this picture in my head of some spoiled brat driving around in Daddy's sports car wearing one of those silly white driving scarfs and driving gloves

...gee blink I credited you with a better imagination than that. lol

Don't quite understand your particular bias though.

The hardware is essentially the same these days, the choice of operating system means you can choose to work in OSX or one of the versions of Windows or, as I do, both.

Never owned a sports car, left my only white scarf in a cafe in Paris in 1976 and driving gloves are for whimps, or those who live in colder climates than we generally experience here in Oz.

Bought my first Apple IIe in 1984, my first PC in 1990 and loaded Windows 95 off 14 x 3.5" floppies when it was released, god that was painful!

Today I've been building and selling PCs as a sideline to my multimedia business for over 12 years because I found very early on the best way of getting a PC to function correctly as a video editing system is to select the components and build the thing yourself.

Apple users on the other hand pay somewhat more, except at the server level of a Mac Pro, than your average PC user for a known set of hardware which makes it easier for Apple and third party developers to determine the function of their applications. They know the range of hardware that it will be expected to work on. FCP for instance will only install and run on the MacBook Pro and Mac Pro range... not the iMacs and MacBooks.

PC software developers have to trust that the end user has chosen a configuration that will work with their software. In the field of video editing this can be a tricky thing. It got simpler for a while when DV was the standard for your average Vegas user but has become much more complicated with the advent of HD and more recently AVCHD.

I don't hate PCs, I own and run Apple computers as well as PCs because I interface my video and audio broadcast work with large broadcasters who also run Apples and FCP.

They made the change from AVID on HP PCs because of the cost factor... it was cheaper to go Mac. They changed over ABC TV here over the period of two weeks from around 20 offline edit suites and four online suites all AVID based to FCP and retrained their editors to keep the production flow happening. They retained their 5 ICON based ProTools HD audio suites on PCs and can easily move audio to them via fibrechannel using OMFs for audio and Quicktime vision.

In the end whether it's a PC or a Mac, AVID, FCP, Vegas or Premiere it's just a tool and the only real difference is the 'tool' operating it.

As I posted in another thread on this forum if SCS wants to compete with either of the main players in the film and broadcast industry for video editing, and I don't include Adobe Premiere in those ranks, they need to offer in Vegas some of the functionality that programs like AVID and FCP offer in media serving with their optional software and hardware like AVID Unity and Final Cut Server.

Vegas is a great standalone product but falls down in the lack of these services to large facilities.

By the way I miss my scarf... too many bottles of red wine followed by an early flight to London.

"The hardware is essentially the same these days, "
They couldn't find enough yuppies to stand on their own... they had to steal a bit of the PC world.

"Never owned a sports car, left my only white scarf in a cafe in Paris in 1976 and driving gloves are for whimps, or those who live in colder climates than we generally experience here in Oz."
No.... you're just one of those poor soles that swallowed the hook. It happens... sort of like a cult moving in and preying on you at your weakest time. We do feel for you and we're here should you one day see the light.

"Bought my first Apple IIe in 1984, my first PC in 1990 and loaded Windows 95 off 14 x 3.5" floppies when it was released, god that was painful!"
Bought mine about that time too. Then PC came along and graciously pointed out the err of my ways. Pretty fortunate too... otherwise I'd be one of those "i" this and "i" that kind of nerds.

"Apple users on the other hand pay somewhat more, "
They pay more SOLELY for the shiny little apple on the front of the machine.... unfortunately they're so caught up in the cult that they can't see it.

"I don't hate PCs, I own and run Apple computers as well as PCs"
Well I HATE apple and there is sweet dick-all nothing that you can say or do to change that.

"They made the change from AVID on HP PCs because of the cost factor... it was cheaper to go Mac."
There's a real wake-up call if I ever saw one.... Avid has no friggin idea in the world what they're doing They bought Pinnacle... need I say more?

"As I posted in another thread on this forum if SCS wants to compete with either of the main players in the film and broadcast industry for video editing, and I don't include Adobe Premiere in those ranks,"
Vegas usage has done NOTHING but INCREASE over the last little while and SCS has done it thus far in its own unique style and way. Now whether the trend continues that way is anybody's guess but they sure aren't having to ...... "re-structure" like Avid is, and they aren't up for sale like grass valley is.

Well - I have my own cherished opinions on Steve Jobs and Apple, which echo many of the sentiments expressed here (except perhaps without as much vitriol). But I think what's more important here is to focus on the long-term strategy of Microsoft and the astonishing variety of developers and hardware manufacturers that they support.

The guys at Sonic Foundry/Sony are a great example of that. It's definitely a double-edged sword, to have the kind of flexibility that the PC platform provides also means that those users more often than not need to have some tech savvy. I'm a geek - always have been - and that suits my nature. People that have an aversion to that side of technology can pay the premium that Apple demands - I don't have any qualms with that.

There was a time when I would allow myself to get caught up in the endless debate over platforms/business models and whatnot, but these days I'd rather just "pick a side" and do the creative stuff I was put on the planet to do...

I unfortunately don't get to use Vegas as often as I used to, but I still enjoy reading the forum and enjoy these bizarre exchanges.

I understand that some people have some serious issues they deal with personally and use this forum as an outlet to vent. (I'm glad they do it here and not in real life, btw.) Anyway, in order to earn a living as an editor, I was more or less forced to switch to Final Cut Pro and had to buy a Mac. In college, about 10-12 years ago, I was forced to use a Mac and Media 100--it sucked and I really really hated it. The dragging the floppy to the trash bin, etc. and one mouse button stuff drove me nuts.

Anyway, that is all gone now with the newer Mac OS releases. Coming from a prior IT background as a system administrator that dealt day in and day out with Windows, I can say that I love using OSX . No way is it perfect and the Finder is a love/hate relationship at best, but the stuff just works and it's laid out well and very intuitive. I also don’t care if the OSX is based on a Unix kernel or not, that is for the developers to worry about nor do I care about who's first to 64 bit desktop computing. Hardware wise, the Mac Pro desktops/workstations/silver box with Apple logo/cult Kool-aid dispensing Towers are nothing short of server-grade solid and only cost a few hundred more than similarly spec'd Dells and HP workstations 2.5 years ago when I bought mine. Only the newest Dell Poweredge servers best the Mac Pros in terms of layout and solid heft in all of my years playing with computers. When it comes to using a machine to earn a living on, the purchase cost doesn't matter much over the course of, say, 3 or 4 years. Sure, I paid about $3500 for a Mac Pro w/ FCP and I could have paid half that for a great Windows machine and Vegas (which I did, btw) and would have been just as happy editing my little fingers off on Vegas. Maybe my Mac ends up costing me a $100 a month over 3 years and my PC costs me $50 a month over the same period, ok so $50 a month isn't going to make or break me, but having a Mac has allowed me to get paying jobs...which is nice. I don't own a convertible, my parents haven't paid nor could afford to pay for jack sh*t, and if next year the paying jobs use Linux or an OS from Fiser Price, I'll use it because I like editing and the way life works is that you have to do stuff for money and sometime people want you to use their stuff (or their approved stuff so you can swap files and projects back and forth) and sometimes you can use your own stuff. Some of the better places to work use Avid and so I might need to learn that. It sucks….I’ve used Avid a few years back and hated it more than Media 100, but if you want to get paid you use the tools the customer wants.

I feel like I can talk about this stuff because I’ve been on both sides, I originally swore that I’d never buy a Mac because for a 1/3 of the price I could build a much better Windows box. As time went on I realized that I liked editing better than building and tweaking computers (installing new drivers then uninstalling new drivers because they stepped all over something else, checking to see if Vegas works with XYZ brand video card, etc). I don’t worry about that stuff anymore, everything on the Mac is pretty much a lock in terms of compatibility when buying a new system. I also realize why many businesses use Macs and FCP, to them it is much much much cheaper than the comparable Avid solution would be. Let’s say you are in charge of building out a bunch of edit bays to produce educational videos and you plan to use freelancers as the work load increases/decreases. First, you won’t pick Vegas or Premiere because a quick search on Monster or Career Builder would show you that there aren’t many people looking for people with those skills (unfortunately). That leaves you with Final Cut and Avid. With budgets being tight, you choose Final Cut on Mac since you can find editors as needed and the price per seat won’t break the bank. That’s just the reality of it. I used to wish with all my heart that Vegas would be adopted by the “pro community” and by in large it’s not. Vegas is a faster editor, but Final Cut has plenty of strengths and in most cases it’s not the raw speed in which you cut and join clips that counts, it’s the day-to-day stuff like sharing projects between different editors, and “round tripping” to and from graphics, titling, and sound programs (i.e. sending those jobs to the graphics person who is designing complex animations in Motion while I’m editing). Now for one-man band stuff, Vegas is nice because it packs so many features you don’t need to jump out to After Effects and other graphics programs as often. I think Sony identified the market for this app and they are not interested in trying to win over businesses with Vegas. They are going after the serious hobbyist and the rest of us that use it on pro gigs are just icing on the cake. I’m not saying they design this program for the hobbyist, I’m saying that they market it to the readers of Videomaker Magazine and other such serious hobbyists.

Also, I do understand that some people might be rubbed the wrong way from the Mac vs. PC spots, but I think you need to realize the tongue and check nature of it all and realize that in a world where 90% of the computer run Windows, you sort have to go for the jugular to get people’s attention. As far the new Yuppie Mac users, or the douche black shirt wearing artsy users, and the dumb rich kid users, I think it is safe to say that both camps have those and it isn’t far to pre-judge all Mac users as such.

In fact I would hazzard to guess that that's how FCP really gained its popularity....


Hey, I resemble that remark......

Mike Hazzard

First, you won’t pick Vegas or Premiere because a quick search on Monster or Career Builder would show you that there aren’t many people looking for people with those skills (unfortunately). That leaves you with Final Cut and Avid. With budgets being tight, you choose Final Cut on Mac since you can find editors as needed and the price per seat won’t break the bank. That’s just the reality of it.

Here's another bit of reality - a *MAJOR* studio here in LA LA Land bought 20 seats of FCP - and shortly thereafter replaced it with Avid Nitris systems.

The reason? Support... they just couldn't get the support they demanded with FCP. So, they paid the premium for Nitris to have a body in the room when an editor couldn't figure out where the comezouta points to the goezinta...

Everyone's needs, wants, and budget are different... I'm content with my choices (including a solid assortment of Mac-friendly tools so I can play well with others)

Support is the name of the game in bigger more mission critical places to be sure. I think I sometimes forget how geeky I am with tech crap. Many very smart individuals haven't the foggiest clue when it comes to making these editing machines work, so they pay.

I'll add even with Avid support person on-site, the costs are still a fraction of what they were just 10 years ago or so when everything was tape and mixer based.

A guy I work with once and awhile used to own a big shop and was the first to get Digi-beta in the area. They literally paid a few hundred thousand dollars for 2 playback decks, consoles, edit controllers, monitors, and record deck. Now he points at his Mac Book Pro and says "This does everything better and cost 100 times less". So when we argue about paying double for a Mac vs. a PC we are only talking at best a thousand dollars or so, you know?

Well I HATE apple and there is sweet dick-all nothing that you can say or do to change that.

blink I just love it when I find a subject that really gets you ticking....keep it coming buddy it's so entertaining.

we're here should you one day see the light

I did... I edited on PCs, most of which I built myself, from 1998 to 2006 and then bought a Mac Pro, initially to run Vegas because it was cheaper than buying the equivalent HP and about the same as purchasing the components and building it myself

I'm glad I did because a major source of my professional income now comes from a broadcaster who has since changed over as well. But then I was always using professional audio software with them that could do AAF and OMF ... obviously not Vegas unfortunately.. but cross platform meaning I can run it in Windows and Mac OSX .

I'm also glad I still work with PCs because I also make a good deal of money fixing them for others when they crash, get virus infections or die during a Microsoft Update... how's Conficker affecting the Windows community at present?

SOLELY for the shiny little apple on the front of the machine

blink you've got to be a little more up to date, only the iMacs have that, it's on the back on the MacBooks and the side of the Mac Pro, but not shiny ... I feel let down about that lol!!!

Looking forward to your next post... at least this thread is staying on track!!!!

I loved the PC/Mac commercial where PC was getting a camera taped to his head. It was so funny I almost peed myself.

I have both now because of the reasons stated above, and here's just more opportunities for Final Cut editors.

I still prefer Vegas and work with it when I have a choice.

But then, I learned to fly in a Cessna, so I think they're better airplanes than Pipers.

It truly amazes me to no end that this debate still continues on this forum (fueled by the same people each time) - Love PC's, Hate Macs or Hate PC's and Love Macs or Hate Both (you're probably not here much) or Love Both -

There are instances where neither platform does everything that you need it to. Plain and simple. To each his own.

cheno

>>>>it was cheaper than buying the equivalent HP and about the same as purchasing the components and building it myself <<<<<

That is just nonsense. Nobody's forcing you to buy a HP, or Dell, or whatever. As mentioned many times before, on the PC side you have choices, and that is the most important difference.

You can ALWAYS find the equivalent hardware for almost $1000 ( depending on the time/market situation ) less on the PC side, and I've posted links right here on this forum.

Apple will always be more expensive for equal hardware configuration and will always give you far less choices. The rest may be debatable, but that is definitely not.

For example notebook market: Sager ( Clevo ) vs. Mac book pro is a joke. The only thing mac may have over it is battery life, but Sager will cost less and will give you options that make Mac look like trash.

You can already ( or very soon ) buy Clevo ( that is what Sager uses ) models with i7 chips in them
if you know where to look.

New:

"blink I just love it when I find a subject that really gets you ticking....keep it coming buddy it's so entertaining."
On the contrary. My statement was not one of emotion but rather one designed to emphasize the rigidity of my position

"I did... I edited on PCs, most of which I built myself, from 1998 to 2006 and then bought a Mac Pro,"
You see... that's the problem with a cult.... those involved in it can't see the damage that they're doing to themselves.

"I'm also glad I still work with PCs because I also make a good deal of money fixing them for others when they crash, get virus infections or die during a Microsoft Update."
Yup... I knew it. Get one of you guys talking about this stuff long enough and the bullsh*it starts flowing.

Macs Crashing

Mac viruses

Now please don't start telling me how macs can fly, babysit, wash dishes..... yadda yadda



"blink you've got to be a little more up to date"
New.... I want to be up-to-date with things that are actually important in my life. Let me assure you that Steve Jobs and Apple are NOT of those things, and furthermore.... never will be.

I'm sure Apple's warning to use anti-virus software came from their legal department wanting to avoid law suits when the first in-the-wild OS X virus appears in 2011 (or later).

"I'm sure Apple's warning to use anti-virus software came from their legal department "

Oh yes.... of course ;) [snicker, snicker]

>> They pay more SOLELY for the shiny little apple on the front of the machine

Being a PC user (Vegas and work demands it) and a casual Mac user, I have to totally disagree with this one. Apple always had one thing better than the PC crowd, that was the OS. Pre OSX the Apple OS was crappy by today's standard, but it was competing mostly against Win95/98 which was significantly worse.

OSX is in a lot of areas, software development, stability and general enterprise usage, still at least 3 years ahead of Microsoft. This might change with Windows 7 comes out, but even in Vista Microsoft still doesn't "get" enterprise computing. Not even close. Amazingly Apple does, even though they are not big in that area.

The fact that OSX at heart is Unix helps a lot too. Now they only have to get rid of HFS.

>> Well I HATE apple

If that is the case I truly feel sorry for you, it would seem you have a particularly sad life.

It's insulting to know there are so many sniveling, jealous babies in this forum.

It's insulting to know there are so many sniveling, jealous babies in this forum.

In blink's defense I don't think that's a fair comment. I'm sure he doesn't snivel and his typing skills are much better than my 6 month old grandson's ability on my computer....

zxew4563awrt341v3v5 567br4$^%QA$^$%^QBtwegt.... see....lol

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