OT: blueray vs HD-DVD

Comments

fwtep wrote on 8/17/2007, 12:33 PM
Well.... My Mommy is stronger than your Mommy is! :)

Ya know, I know you're just kidding there, but you might want to notice that I keep posting specific facts and verifiable statistics, and all you keep saying is "the war hasn't even started yet" without any facts or evidence of any kind to back it up. Strange, that.
blink3times wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:26 PM
"I keep posting specific facts and verifiable statistics,..."
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What the heck are you talking about???

Your last "fact"....."but I think the release of these titles will have a far greater impact on the war than the news that Onkyo is releasing an HD-DVD player that costs more than double what you can get a Toshiba for"...... was IN FACT, not fact but pure 120% opinion as is most of what else you have offered.... "HD DVD will die"

Nobody here can ACTUALLY attest to the idea that "2.2million vs 1.5Million" is ACTUALLY a fact.

The ONLY facts that we know for sure are that blu ray has pulled out SOMEWHERE in front, HD DVD has had some setbacks, and overall, Hi def has not bitten into the general population yet. ANYTHING above this is complete speculation and crystal ball reading by you, me, apit, the "good researchers" and anybody else that wants to throw their hat in the ring.

Look FW... I'll say it again... I think this is FAR from over. Let me say that twice just in case you missed it the last few times.... I think this is FAR from over. Yes, HD DVD has had a few setbacks, no question about it. Blu ray has gained some... At this time HD DVD needs to be very careful because at some point the 'run away train' effect takes over if blu ray eeks out far enough ahead.

But given the rather incredible size of the as of yet untapped market... it's still very much anybodies game. HD DVD does however need to start getting creative... and that's ENTIRELY possible.

You can scream "good researcher" numbers at me all you want and it won't change my mind. One of the big problems with yelling these numbers out is that they always tend to get stretched a little with every person that yells them. Case in point... The figures quoted are if I remember correctly 2.2mil BD and 1.5mil HD DVD... well 2.2M - 1.5M is 700,000. This IS NOT a 2 to 1 ratio. Yet you look above and see how many times it has been sited as such.

700,000 disks is not a big number (relatively speaking). You look at the vhs article I presented above and you will see big numbers... Pirates selling 5mil in 24 hours on dvd.

Does it look good for blu ray right now? Sure it does... but then it looked good for HD DVD prior to the PS3... we'll see what happens in a few months.
fwtep wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:45 AM
Blink, come on, I didn't say that EVERYTHING I posted was a fact. And I've been clear when I'm giving just an opinion, as the line you quoted from me shows.

Then you said...
but then it looked good for HD DVD prior to the PS3... we'll see what happens in a few months.

It looked good for HD DVD when Blu-Ray was delayed, and then when the first Sony players had problems, and when Blu-Ray wasn't fully to market. So really, when both products were completely released, Blu-Ray took a commanding lead, despite HD's many months of head start. That says a lot about the two formats.

Still, fine, think that way about the PS3. What does HD have on the horizon that will have that kind of impact? What will attract the "12:00 blinking" VCR people to HD-DVD?

Like I said, the war is almost over-- another 7 months or so, tops. It's not going to be decided by the 300 million people of the US or the billions around the world. It's going to be decided by a handful of millions. This is not the VCR wars. Back then no one had video collections, so there was a strong desire to buy. With the high-def war people have very little desire to partake in a war because they already have so much. I'm a BIG movie fan and music fan. I bought CDs long before I ever had a player. I started buying VHS right away. But I didn't hop onto DVD right away, except for buying a couple of movies before I had a player (because they were titles that were limited production). But I haven't bought a high-def disc yet. I don't think you have either, whereas in the VHS days you probably would already have at least a few movies and a VCR (I don't know how old you are, of course).

So the great mases are sitting out this war, just like the porn industry says they themselves are. They're all waiting for a winner. And that winner will be decided some time after Christmas. And for families, which the U.S. has quite a lot of, they will be a lot more interested in Blu-Ray since it's the only way they'll be able to get Disney and Pixar titles.

Me, I like what's available (and soon to be available) for Blu-Ray, and if the players were as cheap as HD-DVD ones, I'd buy one. Not because I think Blu-Ray is a better format-- I don't know or really care what the differences are-- but because of the titles. I would like the winner to be one that allows for home burning too, so hopefully Blu-Ray will catch up to HD in this regard.
GregFlowers wrote on 8/18/2007, 10:53 AM
I don't think the format war will be over after Christmas - not by a long shot. Both sides simply offer titles that the public wants that are format exlusive. If anything, I think HD-DVD has a chance to improve its position around Christmas because it will likely have players available on sale in the low $200's while Blu-Ray players will likely be $100-150 more.

I personally welcome a long war because I think the competition is advantagous to the consumer, although I understand the argument that neither HD format will become mainstream until the other is defeated. I do not think Sony would have been as aggressive in fixing Blu-Ray's early release problems if HD-DVD hadn't been around. I have been very happy with the quality and quantity of HD releases and especially the support for releasing the HD versions day and date with thier SD DVD counterparts.

I still don't understand the furvor demonstrated by some here, especially those who don't even own either format. It would be like someone getting into a heated debate over the merits of Vegas vs Premiere while only owning and using Windows Movie Maker.
MozartMan wrote on 8/18/2007, 11:09 AM
Universal is deliberately prolonging the format war

Let me boil the interview down: “We know HD DVD is going to die, but if we admitted that now it would kill sales going into this holiday season. There isn’t enough time for Universal to realign itself and pump out BD, so our already terrible sales would be even worse. Instead, we’re going to prolong this war and see how many people we can sucker into buying a dead format walking. We’ll happily pocket their money, then next year we’ll announce that we’re adding Blu-ray support to our lineup. This will lead to the collapse of HD DVD, which will give us a graceful exit so we don’t lose too much face. The suckers who paid for HD DVD will be left high and dry, just like the suckers who bought DIVX instead of DVD 10 years ago.” Well, actually, most DIVX players could play DVD, so those weren’t a total loss. Maybe the suckers who paid for HD DVD players will be happy using them as upscaling DVD players.

I disagree with pretty much all of Kornblau’s arguments from the interview. He claims that only the format war has driven costs down - yet the PS3 is the best selling high-def capable player and still the lowest cost BD player (now tied with the Sony BDP-S300), and its pricing has nothing to do with the format war. At least not *this* one - it is all about competing with the Xbox 360. On top of that, as the interview points out, DVD player pricing dropped 20% in the first year and an additional 30% the second year - with no format war. Even without a format war there is competition between vendors that drives the price down, and there are strong incentives to bring the price down to increase market adoption. BD and HD DVD don’t just compete with each other, they also compete with DVD, VOD, etc.

He also argues that HD DVD’s interactive features are an important factor in Universal’s support. Yet Universal has done very little to *use* those features, so the argument is hollow. Warner and Paramount, who release both HD DVD and BD, have done more to use them than Universal has! If the features are so key - why aren’t you using them? And any advantage HD DVD has had is vanishing as updated BD profiles become mandatory with BD1.1 required for coming players and BD Live (connectivity) standard in many new players. On top of BD-J’s already superior capabilities compared to HDi.

And I simply think it is delusional to believe the format war is good for *anyone*, other than those invested in HD DVD.

The answer is simple: DO NOT BUY HD DVD.

http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/08/09/universal-is-deliberately-prolonging-the-format-war
DrLumen wrote on 8/18/2007, 11:26 AM
I haven't invested in either yet so I'm not a fanboy either way. I am aware of the the prices, availability, firmware upgrades, PS3, XB360, etc. However, if I were to buy one right now, it would be HD DVD. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth because of the redmond evil empire...

Does Sony (or anybody) offer a BD authoring solution for less that $50k? I know it's not Vegas or something like DVD Architect.

intel i-4790k / Asus Z97 Pro / 32GB Crucial RAM / Nvidia GTX 560Ti / 500GB Samsung SSD / 256 GB Samsung SSD / 2-WDC 4TB Black HDD's / 2-WDC 1TB HDD's / 2-HP 23" Monitors / Various MIDI gear, controllers and audio interfaces

Laurence wrote on 8/18/2007, 12:17 PM
"And I simply think it is delusional to believe the format war is good for *anyone*, other than those invested in HD DVD.

The answer is simple: DO NOT BUY HD DVD."
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You're missing a couple of things. Most importantly, that the discs are the same size and that in the long run, dual format players could be made for the same price as either format alone.

Also, both formats were poised to disable things like HD output over component (which would have been a real bummer to me since my older HDTV only has component ins) and only stopped short of doing this because they were competing for us consumers.

You're missing the fact that the competition between formats is what has pushed the price down so far. With the competition between formats, you can buy one of each for less than one format alone would have cost without this so called "format war".

You're sounding like a high definition consumer rather than a HD content producer. I can produce an HD DVD compatible disc for 30 cents. A Bluray disc costs me almost 20 dollars. As a consumer I can see someone being exclusively in the Bluray camp. As a producer, especially a small scale one, HD DVD is really the only option you can use. By the way, I seriously doubt that Toshiba would have even bothered including the new "3x DVD" (or HD DVD on DVD-R) format as part of it's specification if they weren't fighting tooth and nail for market share with Bluray.

I started another thread http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=541608&Replies=8here[/link] which points out that there is a new Sony stand alone DVD burner which is supposed to burn HD content onto regular DVDs. This looks to me like the Bluray format may be starting to allow HD content on regular DVDs just like HD DVD does. This would be wonderful for us small time producers, and yet, it could well be yet another thing inspired by the "format war".

I am firmly in the "I hope HD DVD holds out long enough until there are dual format players" camp. That may not be the best thing for your average consumer, but it certainly is the best thing for those of us burning and distributing our own HD content. Look at the + / - R thing with DVDs. At first it was a big deal and caused all sorts of confusion and consternation in the market. Now it is no big deal. Most readers and writers handle both formats and many people don't even bother checking anymore to see which they're buying.
Sidecar2 wrote on 8/18/2007, 12:56 PM
We bought a ridiculously expensive Blu-ray burner.
We bought many ridiculously expensive burnable BD-R and BD-RW disks.
We bought the expensive authoring software.
We bought a stupidly expensive ($450) Sony second generation Blu-Ray player.

The second generation Sony player cannot play BD-R or BD-RW disks.

Sigh.

I can buy a progressive scan SD DVD player that plays formats galore for $30.
Laurence wrote on 8/18/2007, 1:43 PM
Have you tried the latest firmware? http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=541134This post[/link] says that firmware has just been released that fixes this.

But yeah, that's what brought me into the HD DVD camp as well. I just bought the Ulead software and my first test on regular DVD-R worked perfectly right off the bat. Totally different experience than I had with authoring Bluray.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 4:02 PM
"Me, I like what's available (and soon to be available) for Blu-Ray, and if the players were as cheap as HD-DVD ones, I'd buy one. Not because I think Blu-Ray is a better format-- I don't know or really care what the differences are-- but because of the titles. I would like the winner to be one that allows for home burning too, so hopefully Blu-Ray will catch up to HD in this regard."
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Well FW... if this is what it comes down to for you, then maybe you should re think the team you're routing for here because you're not making much sense.

Regardless to who wins the format war ALL the titles will rest with that winner. You will not see a studio sitting on the sidelines sulking and not producing HD disks because the side they were routing for lost. If HD DVD wins then all the studios... even the ones that were producing strictly blu ray will start producing HD DVD. The titles will come under ANY condition so it really doesn't matter who wins from that point of view. Furthermore, it has been stated by many that own both formats is that there really isn't a difference in terms of quality, so it doesn't matter who wins from that point of view.

So what does it come down to? Well for me (and by your above statement.... you too) it's price and burning.... both of which Toshiba is handling better... and they don't even have a burner out yet. Blu ray burning is a mess right now, and has been since day one. They have bits and pieces of burning technology out all over the place and NONE of it fits together properly... and they have had PLENTY of time to get it together. Toshiba on the other hand has made their technology open and available to anyone that wants to use it and write programs for it. Burning Toshiba style (and I can tell you this personally) has been fast, easy and cheap... in short... a pleasure. And I predict that it will flow just as smoothly when the real HD DVD burners come out. But judging by Sony's performance to this point in the burning department, we'll all be in a sad state if HD DVD loses and dies as you so predict.

As far as a winner is concerned, you know my feelings and where I stand.... and your words have not changed my mind one tiny little bit... we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 4:14 PM
"I personally welcome a long war because I think the competition is advantagous to the consumer...."
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I completely agree. Prices are falling like a rock BECAUSE of this war, and I think we're going to see some incredible price drops on just about everything on both sides this Christmas.
apit34356 wrote on 8/18/2007, 4:20 PM
What is really misleading in these postings is that no-one is actually burning a HD-DVD disk or using a HD-DVD burner to burn a HD-DVD disk. Everyone is burning a DVD3 format on a standard DVD and playing it in the player. BR actually has a burner that burns BR disks, but not the "studio movie" layout. Sony BR players have the hardware to read HD-DVD and DVD3 disks, but do not want to pay royalties to MS and run XML for menu control. This is why many manufacturers are adopting the AVCHD format for burning to the standard DVD and avoiding DVD3&HD-DVD.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 4:53 PM
"What is really misleading in these postings is that no-one is actually burning a HD-DVD disk "
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For all intents and purposes they ARE real HD DVD disks... the only difference is time.


"Sony BR players have the hardware to read HD-DVD and DVD3 disks, but do not want to pay royalties to MS and run XML for menu control."
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Show me a link that can back this statement please, because the last time I heard... HD DVD and Blu Ray are NOT compatible.
MozartMan wrote on 8/18/2007, 5:09 PM
blink,

Would you please stop this bull shit? Those ARE NOT REAL HD DVD disks.
They ARE DVD disks.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 5:36 PM
"Would you please stop this bull shit? Those ARE NOT REAL HD DVD disks.
They ARE DVD disks"
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Well... if they were dvd disks then they would play in a dvd player wouldn't they!? :)

They are not dvd's
They are set up the same way as a dvd but instead of a video_ts folder it has a HVDVD_TS folder... and instead of VOB files, they have EVO files.... all else is the same... IFO, BUP...

They are not written in a normal fashion but rather as UDF2.6 so they will not play in a regular dvd player. You can SORT of play them back in your computer if you have the proper drivers installed (UDF drivers), but it by no means dependable.

The real name for them is 3xdvd and they are an official part of the HD DVD spec... so again I say for all intents and purposes... they ARE HD DVD's
MozartMan wrote on 8/18/2007, 5:49 PM
you are FUDing again. Structure of content is HD DVD.

PHYSICAL MEDIA is DVD5 or DVD9.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 6:05 PM
"PHYSICAL MEDIA is DVD5 or DVD9."
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So what's your point?
This is exactly why they are called 3x dvd. Toshiba has gone and done an EXCELLENT job at allowing real HD DVD content on standard media thereby allowing a person to save LOTS of money. I fail to see why anybody in our line of work would want to try and detract from this. Unless of course you're looking at all of this from a personal point of view as opposed to an objective one.

Once again, I say to you... for all intents and purposes they ARE HD DVD's. They are an official part of the spec and you will STILL be able to burn them, use them, and play them even after the real burners come out.
MozartMan wrote on 8/18/2007, 6:22 PM
So what's your point?

What's my point?

Four posts above you said:

For all intents and purposes they ARE real HD DVD disks... the only difference is time.

Point is: you spread lie, FUD, BS, etc, whichever you like best, because they ARE NOT real HD DVD disks

That's what HD DVD trolls do on AVS forum in Blu-ray section.
You also try to hijack every thread about Blu-ray with your HD DVD propaganda.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 6:38 PM
I can see that this is no longer an OBJECTIVE conversation... your anger is quite evident, and your hatred of Toshiba comes forth.

The AVS forum has very little to do with this one.... let's try and keep them separate shall we??

And as far as burning is concerned, there is no propaganda being spread.... Toshiba has done a great job at including 3x dvd in their spec.... and it works well. It plays real HD DVD in a HD DVD player, complete with detailed motion menus, dd5.1 sound, chapters... the whole shabbang.... for all intents and purposes it IS a HD DVD.
apit34356 wrote on 8/18/2007, 7:51 PM
blink3times, calling a DVD3 an HD-DVD is like calling a CD a DVD disk because it contains video files. HD-DVD disk are clearly defined as 15g/layer media, not DVD5 or DVD9 media. Toshiba failure to mass-produce a stable low/medium=$2k< burner has been spin into, "BR burners won't let burn movie media problem". DVD3 is a not a real solution for HD-DVD media burning needs and its a joke to suggest it is. If DVD3 works for your needs, thats great, but it not HD-DVD media.
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:00 PM
"If DVD3 works for your needs, thats great, but it not HD-DVD media"
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I need you to go back over all of these posts and show me where I referred to 3x dvd as HD DVD media, because I don't recall ever saying that.
What I said was "For all intents and purposes it is a real HD DVD"

"Toshiba failure to mass-produce a stable low/medium=$2k< burner has been spin into"
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I need you to show me a link where it states that Toshiba has tried and to produce a burner.

I am also STILL asking for a solid link to back your previous statement: "Sony BR players have the hardware to read HD-DVD and DVD3 disks, but do not want to pay royalties to MS and run XML for menu control... because I was always led to believe that these 2 formats are not compatible.

I can back up my statements... I can produce a 3x dvd that plays real hi def in any toshiba player complete with motion menus, chapters, dd5.1 sound... it's only fair that I ask the same in return.

As stated before, 3x dvd is an official part of the Toshiba spec, and it's not going anywhere even after the burners come out. If you prefer to look at it as a joke then it is certainly well within your right to do so and I will not fault you on it. But me.... I prefer to look at it as yet another viable and flexible option of HD DVD and Toshiba... an option that is always there if needed. I for one think a lot of people doing trailers for example would much prefer use dvd media as opposed to an expensive blue laser disk. I also think it would be great for burning test pieces of one sort or another so one doesn't have to create $15 coasters. That's the great part about flexibility... you can improvise. But if it's a joke to you... then okay... sorry you missed the boat!

GregFlowers wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:07 PM
Man, haven't you all decided on which is the once and always HD format yet? By the end of this weekend we still have to determine whether Republicans or Democrats are right and then, time permitting, the one true religion ;)
blink3times wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:19 PM
"Man, haven't you all decided on which is the once and always HD format yet? By the end of this weekend we still have to determine whether Republicans or Democrats are right and then, time permitting, the one true religion ;)"
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Well, to be perfectly frank, I can go on with the burning issue forever. I don't really give a rats rear end who wins the war from a Hollywood movie point of view. Both formats are equally good and will work fine in this area. It's the burning I'm interested in and Toshiba has come through.... blu ray has not.... and they even have real burners out there!

Toshiba has opened all the doors that they have available at present for burning while Sony has kept them closed. It's for this reason that I truly believe in not only the product (HD DVD), but the people behind it.
Laurence wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:22 PM
"blink3times, calling a DVD3 an HD-DVD is like calling a CD a DVD disk because it contains video files. HD-DVD disk are clearly defined as 15g/layer media, not DVD5 or DVD9 media. Toshiba failure to mass-produce a stable low/medium=$2k< burner has been spin into, "BR burners won't let burn movie media problem". DVD3 is a not a real solution for HD-DVD media burning needs and its a joke to suggest it is. If DVD3 works for your needs, thats great, but it not HD-DVD media."
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I have this really cool box. It's called a 3x DVD player. It's main feature is that it can play back HD content that I author on really cheap DVD+-R blanks. It also uprezzes my regular DVDs.

It also has this feature that I don't use very much. It can play feature films in a format called HD DVD. Kind of cool and I did buy one disc to check it out. It looked great but I wouldn't pay that much money for it if that was all it did. As an added freebee to a player that plays my own content however, it's kind of cool...