OT: blueray vs HD-DVD

Comments

GregFlowers wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:39 PM
Yeah, I own both formats and I tend to lean a little toward HD DVD myself. Mabey I tend to root for the underdog or that HD DVD got it right from the start or the ability to burn HD content onto regular DVD-Rs. Who knows.

If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I would bet that Blu Ray will likely win after a long drawn out war. I think this because of its superior studio support and marketing, and that Sony has far more to lose in Blu Ray's failure than Toshiba or Universal does if HD DVD folds. I hope the combo player eventually become the norm as it would solve a lot of problems.

There is nothing that makes me think that there will ultimately be one and only one HD format. In other tech areas like video games, home computers, processors, and even video cameras there has been many non-compatible formats thathave coexisted without completely destroying the competition.

My own personal philosophy, especially on boards like this one and the AVS forum, is to not take it so seriously as you will liikely not change the minds of those you are arguing with.
apit34356 wrote on 8/18/2007, 10:05 PM
blink3times, "Sony BR players have the hardware to read HD-DVD and DVD3 disks, but do not want to pay royalties to MS and run XML for menu control", I assume that your not an electrical engineer from your posting, so tech references concerning ics on the board would be not useful, so a simple example of manufactured product would be better; the Samsung’s Duo HD player (BD-UP5000). It's not a secret, but is not well know that Samsung and Sony became partners in a number of manufacturing adventures a couple of years ago, ranging from LCDs to circuit boards(players as a example), where Samsung does the actual manufacturing and Sony designs and tests the beta-products. Both companies actually label their parts for their products as "sony or samsung" while other OEMs products are internally label SY or SG. The design of the Samsung’s Duo HD player (BD-UP5000) is based on the Sony player, licensed from sony for BR. It is well known in engineering circles that a BR disk can not be read by a HD-DVD player because of media design, but a BR player can read the HD-DVD media because of simple "DVD like" structure( and BRs player do read DVDs). The recent redesign of the HD-DVD 3layer to 51G was wanting to address the BR media reading issue as well, plus both formats players are approaching a common manufacturing design, excluding menu software. This is a long discussion which covers a lot of designs, but in end, a dual player based on a BR is cheaper that based on a HD-DVD player at this time. But soon(I believe), the core hardware of the drive will be the same for most, if not all players.

apit34356 wrote on 8/18/2007, 10:21 PM
Laurence, I'm not down on blink3times for being a HD-DVD fan, as much as term HD-DVD. I did not want point this out on the forum, but I guess I should. My real concern is that one of our small but good group of forum members will be hit with a fraud claim by stating they can deliver HD-DVD media when its really DVD3. Some clients don't care, others look for angles, others analyze your marketing and contractile performance---- It could be embarrassing sitting at a corp.table and have a low level assistant point out to his superiors that your labeled product is not on the right media.
blink3times wrote on 8/19/2007, 5:27 AM
"blink3times, "Sony BR players have the hardware to read HD-DVD and DVD3 disks, but do not want to pay royalties to MS and run XML for menu control", I assume that your not an electrical engineer from your posting,...."
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Oh please!! If you can't post a link to back your 'sony players can play HD DVD' line, then it's little more than pie in the sky GARBAGE, and you have no business putting it on this board, let alone even suggesting it. If there was ANYBODY here that should worry about a lawsuit of one form or another... it's you with this line of crap. As for modifying things, I can take the windings out of a toaster and turn it into a usable resister for other purposes.... but then it's no longer a toaster...is it. This is a great example of how far the BD people are willing to step out on a limb to try and match HD DVD. Let's stay on track here with what's REAL shall we??

As for 3x dvd being a joke.... I get a lot of PM's and emails asking me the best method of doing it. As an example, I am tutoring some one on the production of 3x dvd on the Avid boards right now, here's a sample of our PM's:


Hi,



Now here we have a guy that's MAKING MONEY with HD DVD. It sure doesn't seem to me that he, or his client considers 3x DVD a joke.... but like I said.... sorry you missed the boat!

(And BTW...the PM's noted in bold are in fact real, do exist and proof can be issued upon demand)
fwtep wrote on 8/19/2007, 8:13 AM
Blink & Laurence,
If you guys don't care about watching Hollywood (i.e. "store-bought") movies on your HD-DVD players then you're hurting the HD-DVD cause. This war will be won based on disc sales. Maybe that's the problem HD-DVD is having-- people are buying it to play back their own discs. :-)
blink3times wrote on 8/19/2007, 8:32 AM
"Blink & Laurence,
If you guys don't care about watching Hollywood (i.e. "store-bought") movies on your HD-DVD players then you're hurting the HD-DVD cause. This war will be won based on disc sales. Maybe that's the problem HD-DVD is having-- people are buying it to play back their own discs. :-)"

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And you care that we may or may not be hurting HD DVD.... because.....????

But you do have a valid point... I still buy regular dvd's... I will from this point on stop and start buying HD DVD's

And yes... you are right... a lot of people are in fact buying Toshiba players because they CAN do 3x dvd. It's probably compared very much to non gamers buying the PS3 for AVCHD/blu ray playback. Either way, I fail to see the problem with it. If the machine (what ever your choice) works for your purposes then why is it wrong and why should people feel guilty??

I can't say this quite matter-of-factly, but I'm reasonable sure that both Sony and Toshiba would not object a bit if you bought one of their machines for use as a door stop.... just so long as they get their money.
blink3times wrote on 8/19/2007, 10:05 AM
Look.. FW, let's make this very clear. I look back over this thread and it's clear that I am about the only person here looking at this from any real OBJECTIVE angle. I have no "love" for Toshiba, or "hate" for Sony. I'm in this STRICTLY from a video editor's point of view. Toshiba just plain does that better and for that reason, I will support it with everything I can. But if Sony comes up with a faster, better, cheaper way of doing it tomorrow, then I'll drop Toshiba faster than you can say "shazzam".

Beyond video editing, I have no loyalty to either one of these formats. I am not in this for what I can do for them... I am instead into this for what they can do for me... it's that simple. At present Toshiba just plain does it better and THAT is the SOLE reason why I give them my support.

I feel sorry for those that get into this on a personal level, because in the grand scheme of things, neither one of these companies has YOUR best interests at heart... it's all about THEM and MONEY. Neither one of these operations will every pay you back for the support that you offer, the wars that you get into, or the efforts that you have made. So you had better make sure you are supporting what ever side you're on for YOUR reasons and what they can do for YOU, 'cause that's all you will ever get in return from either one of them.
4eyes wrote on 8/19/2007, 12:36 PM
I feel sorry for those that get into this on a personal level, because in the grand scheme of things, neither one of these companies has YOUR best interests at heart…The only exception to this is the PS3, which is really targeted for the home consumer & gamer. So the best of both worlds.
I actually use my PS3 as a tool along with my other video equipment. It's just fast & simple to preview hd, check bit-rates, quality etc. I viewed all the PS3's spec's way before release, waited about 5 months after it's release before buying one to survey feedback. The majority of feedback was BD versus hd-dvd which wasn't my interest. I was more interested in stability, overheating, mechanical or electrical/electronic problems. Most reviews is this area were positive.

Anyone in my family using WMP10, NeroMediaServer or any uPnP server I connect to on my PS3 via the internet. View their videos, music & pictures they want to share, view the pictures or copy the pictures or media to my PS3, then to a SD card and even can print the pictures out now using the PS3 via a usb connected printer. You know the best feature above all of this?
I don't need a computer to do this except to initially open up the port on my router.

So I would say the PS3 is an exception to the above statement.
Blink, time you tried one, it would increase/enhance your video edting production, great tool for checking video bit rates, custom dolby audio settings for all of it's supported media. It really becomes a tool if your into video editing.

I also don't buy Blu-Ray movies, rent them from NetFlix via mail. They also have hd-dvds.
blink3times wrote on 8/19/2007, 1:37 PM
"So I would say the PS3 is an exception to the above statement.
Blink, time you tried one, it would increase/enhance your video edting production, great tool for checking video bit rates, custom dolby audio settings for all of it's supported media. It really becomes a tool if your into video editing."
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Actually, I spent a long time ignoring the PS3 because I don't want a game machine in my living room. I have kids and I have gone to great lengths to see that they have their own game room so the wife and I can have our own room (if you have kids then you KNOW where I'm coming from!)

But after hearing what the PS3 can do I was seriously considering it and even started doing research on it. All that came to a stop however when I found out that blu ray has a spec change coming up. Now I'm in a holding pattern and will revisit the topic AFTER the spec change has occurred and we are all SURE that the PS3 is not somehow adversely affected.
Laurence wrote on 8/19/2007, 1:56 PM
The PS3 is the ONLY current Bluray player that is not adversly affected. The PS3 rocks. You'll be absolutely thrilled if you get one.
GregFlowers wrote on 8/19/2007, 2:09 PM
The PS3 is a wonderful multimedia tool. I can download about 20 minutes worth of HDV .m2t files onto my 4 gig flash drive and watch them immediately on the PS3. I believe it will also play back .m2t files burned on dual layer DVD-Rs, giving you the same HD playback time as HD DVD players and DVD-Rs. Its actually more convenient and faster than burning an HD DVD compatible DVD-R, but you don't get the nice menus or DD 5.1. I haven't personally tried playing .m2t files from DVD-R so forgive me if I'm mistaken.

It can also connect wirelessly to other computers in your house and play many formats (mp3, mpeg2) back remotely. It now has the ability to upscale regular DVDs similarly to the Toshiba HD DVD players.

Its really an elegant tool that I think complements my Toshiba HD DVD player, rather than competing with it. Seems to be right up your alley for a lot of the things you like to do. And it just happens to play Blu-Ray movies and games...

P.S. I would doubt Sony would change the Blu-Ray spec so much as to make the PS3 obsolete. Now that would absolutely kill Blu-Ray as a format IMHO.
blink3times wrote on 8/19/2007, 2:11 PM
I've heard a few people on the AVS forum state that they're not too sure how the spec change will affect things. Given that and the fact that October 31 is not that far off, I'll just wait.

The idea however of being able to store pics and such on the PS3's HDD and play them back on the HDTV is extremely appealing. The wife and I shoot TONS of pics of the kids and the PS3 would make life a lot easier. My problem is that my 13 year old kid is going to be bugging me EVERY day, ALL day to play games.... IN MY LIVING ROOM!!!
GregFlowers wrote on 8/19/2007, 2:17 PM
You really wouldn't have to store them on the PS3 harddrive if you didn't want to. If your computer has wireless then you could play them straight from your computer through the PS3 to your HDTV. Or straight from a flash drive plugged into your PS3. The remote access is a great feature of the PS3.
4eyes wrote on 8/19/2007, 4:29 PM
blink3times,
Yes, I'm laughing because that's actually what the kids (and young adults) ask to do when they come over. Test out and play some of the games, and as fate would have it I got hooked on 2 of the games, of course this was not my fault :) when challenged by the younger generation. For some reason they love to challenge and beat dad (I let them win of course :( )

I think if one has a plasma watch out for burn-in, mine's a Sony projection lcd.
Because it's also a game machine I can really see your point. Mine now resides in the recreational room, not the living room and I also removed the black electrical tape that use to cover the words PlayStation 3, didn't fool-em for a minute.
apit34356 wrote on 8/20/2007, 4:10 PM
OOPS! --should be.--->-- More money, please! quote from your link "I'm told $50 million to Paramount, and $100 million to DreamWorks Animation " this compares closely to the humor that Universal was demanding $2B to be put into the HD DVD ,market over the next two years from MS or they would do both formats. This cash will help those studios and help marketing of HD DVD players. This should help the dual player market, which I would like to see become a real affordable consumer product.

But the real question about the deal is contract length and the performance clauses( sales volume requirements). $150M does not buy a lot royalty in Hollywood, maybe 6-8 months. This remembers me of when Sony bought their big studio, after everyone got their money, they left Sony with a empty shell(management-wise).
blink3times wrote on 8/20/2007, 4:31 PM
What's the expression.... all's fair in love and war?

IF in fact MS handed out a few donations, I hardly see it as being wrong... happens all the time in big business. One thing you CAN be sure of though, if they handed out donations once, chances are great they'll do it again... and again... and again....and...

And MS has some pretty deep pockets too! I suppose you could always make your stand though by boycotting XP/vista :)
apit34356 wrote on 8/20/2007, 5:18 PM
blink3times, "What's the expression.... all's fair in love and war?" business is more warlike than love. An if MS buys everyone and the consumer wins--- count me in! ;-)

I think HD DVD is a side issue for MS, its more about controlling content and being the gatekeeper/fee collector, plus being #1 game console. The home media center and management content is the cash cow that has Apple, MS, and everyone else dreaming about those monthly royalty fees. "T" has been collecting fees for DVDs for awhile and MS sees that these type of fees with content ---- the service fees of the future!
blink3times wrote on 8/20/2007, 5:44 PM
Regardless... it's a good day for Toshiba, hd dvd AND.... video editors!

The PM's I showed (a little above) about 3x dvd NOT being a joke. Buddy Zarco (screen name ) had a good meeting with his client over HD DVD.

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/265964.aspx

Buddy is well on his way to MAKING MONEY with his "joke" 3x dvd
ken c wrote on 8/20/2007, 9:12 PM
It's simply a marketing issue; I predict that HD DVD will win the format wars.

Because "blue-ray" sounds stupid. And I really think that's about it. It's marketing. Naming. Branding. What will consumers "go for" most?

Time will tell. Mark my words, HD-DVD wins and blu-ray goes the way of betamax.
Technical arguments are irrelevant, as they were back then. VHS won the format wars and now, so will HD-DVD.

-ken
John_Cline wrote on 8/20/2007, 11:00 PM
"Because "blue-ray" sounds stupid."

Now that's utterly scientific. I guess there's no point in holding on to my Sony stock.

BluRay sounds no more stupid than "John" or, for that matter, "Calhoooooon."
DGates wrote on 8/20/2007, 11:02 PM

By Josh Friedman and Alex Pham, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
August 21, 2007

The format war over next-generation DVDs appeared to have a clear winner, but the picture just got fuzzier.

Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc. said Monday that they would offer movies exclusively in the HD DVD format rather than in that of the better-selling Blu-ray -- a surprise move that complicates the technology battle that Blu-ray had been clearly winning.

"I am very late to this party because I was skeptical about high definition," said Jeffrey Katzenberg, chief executive of DreamWorks Animation, "but what is happening in the marketplace is a game changer."

Not included are director Steven Spielberg's films, which the companies said were "not exclusive to either format." Spielberg, Katzenberg and mogul David Geffen sold their DreamWorks SKG live-action operation to Paramount parent Viacom Inc. last year.

Both HD DVD and Blu-ray players produce much sharper pictures than conventional DVD players. Because most people still have standard machines, high-definition discs are just a fraction of the overall DVD market. From Jan. 1 through Aug. 12, consumers bought 2.1 Blu-ray discs and 1.1 million HD DVD discs, compared with nearly half a billion standard DVDs, said Judith McCourt, research director of Home Media Research.

But HD DVD players now retail in some cases for $299 and could be headed as low as $199 by the holiday season, Katzenberg said, making them affordable to families just as a diverse group of hi-definition movies is going on sale. He further predicted that this summer's Hollywood blockbusters -- including installments of the "Shrek," "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "Harry Potter" franchises -- would make the fourth quarter the biggest ever in home entertainment.

Blu-ray players have come down to $499 today from about $1,000 a year ago.

Despite being more costly, Blu-ray discs have outsold HD DVDs by 2 to 1 this year, and retailers including Blockbuster Inc. and Target Corp. are lining up on the Blu-ray side, according to the Blu-ray Disc Assn.

"Blu-ray is going to win," said Andy Parsons, spokesman for the trade group. "It's just a question of how much longer it's going to take now."

He said the decision "seems oddly timed given Blu-ray's tremendous momentum both with consumers and with retail."

Target will start selling a Blu-ray device this fall for the holiday shopping season, although it will still offer discs in both formats. Blockbuster now stocks Blu-ray discs exclusively at most of its outlets.

Monday's move by Paramount and DreamWorks Animation is sure to further baffle consumers.

The DVD format battle is reminiscent of the videocassette fracas in the 1980s, won by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co.'s VHS technology over Sony Corp.'s Betamax. Many consumers are holding back on hi-def DVD purchases for fear of ending up like Betamax purchasers who bet on the losing format.

Although lower prices will help spur sales of high-definition movie players, consumers will still hold off because they don't want to be stuck with an obsolete machine that won't be able to play new movies from the winning format a year from now, said Chris Roden, an analyst at Parks Associates in Dallas.

"You're not seeing mass adoption right now," said Roden, who projected that consumers would buy 4.9 million high-definition players this year. "People are just frustrated by the format war."

Universal Pictures releases film DVDs exclusively in HD DVD, developed by a consortium headed by Toshiba Corp.

Sony Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Walt Disney Co., Lions Gate Entertainment Corp. and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc., meanwhile, release titles only in the Sony-developed Blu-ray.

Now, Warner Bros. Pictures and its sibling New Line Cinema will be the only Hollywood studios serving both formats, said Richard Greenfield, an analyst at Pali Research.

"If you want 'Transformers' and 'Shrek the Third,' you'll need an HD DVD player, but if you want 'Spider-Man 3' or 'Pirates 3' you'll need Blu-ray," Greenfield said. "This substantially prolongs the format war."

Paramount had been serving both formats. For DreamWorks Animation, "Shrek the Third" will mark its entry into the high-definition market.

The format battle -- which many had assumed was nearly over -- could drag on for years, one analyst said.

"We don't see an early winner in this," said Jan Saxton of Adams Media Research Inc. in Carmel. "Most people are not aware that the original video format [battle] between Betamax and VHS lasted 10 years."

Katzenberg and Rob Moore, Paramount's president of worldwide marketing and distribution, declined to comment on Internet reports that hefty payments were the motivating factor spurring the two studios.

Nikki Finke of the DeadlineHollywoodDaily.com blog and Greenfield, at his Pali Research blog, said that Paramount would get $50 million and that DreamWorks Animation would receive $100 million for making the switch -- payments that would "meaningfully" boost the bottom lines for both studios.

Katzenberg said he wouldn't discuss deal terms but acknowledged that the Shrek character and the heroes from the studio's upcoming "Bee Movie" and "Kung Fu Panda" would likely be enlisted in marketing efforts to promote the HD DVD format.

Moore also wouldn't comment on deal terms but said, "We think this decision is in the best interests of Viacom and of the consumer."

Moore said Paramount's research showed that those who bought stand-alone hi-def players -- as opposed to the popular PlayStation 3 game consoles that also play Blu-ray movies -- purchase more movie discs.

"Sony got off to a big lead because of the PS3, but we expect that to change dramatically," Moore said.

Sony has sold 1.4 million PlayStation 3s in the U.S. since launching the game console in November 2006, according to NPD Group. Ninety percent of Blu-ray movies are being played on the PlayStation 3, which consumers buy primarily to play video games, analyst Roden said.

Sony will release the first Spielberg film in the hi-def format, the 1977 classic "Close Encounters of the Third Kind," on Nov. 13.

Analysts said that until Monday, Blu-ray had been perceived as the likely winner of the high-definition movie war, with all studios in its camp either fully or partially except Universal.

Monday's announcement gives HD DVD a fighting chance, said Van Baker, an analyst at Gartner Inc. But it also could keep consumers on the fence and ultimately prevent sales of high-definition movies from taking off.

"The customer attitude right now is wait and see," Baker said. "This just prolongs that wait-and-see period."

One reason for the fierce competition is the high stakes involved in owning the technology licenses to the next-generation of DVDs, Baker said.

"It's a winner-take-all battle," he said. "And that's why you see both sides digging in their heels.

"Most consumers are going to choose not to spend their money" when there's a format war, he said. "They're going to continue to buy [regular] DVDs and say that's good enough."

But lower prices will help the HD DVD eventually triumph, said Blair Westlake, vice president of software giant Microsoft Corp., a backer of HD DVD.

"Consumers want hardware that's low priced in order to enter the high-definition market, and HD DVD is fast approaching that mark," Westlake said. "Consumers know they can buy a standard def DVD player today for less than $100, so they don't want to pay five or six times that to get into a new format."

josh.friedman@latimes.com

alex.pham@latimes.com
DGates wrote on 8/20/2007, 11:13 PM
If BluRay is already in the lead, it seems to me that if they just add a couple of entry-level players priced at $199 or less, they'll nip HDDVD in the bud.
Laurence wrote on 8/20/2007, 11:17 PM
Watch, somebody's going to release a reasonably priced dual format player that actually works, and when they do, it will sell so well it will drag other manufacturers into doing dual format players as well.