Sorry, I deleted my former post because after having read it twice, I thought I mixed some of your informations and questions.

This doesn't answer the question. The only way to get out what your levels are is to control the video signals via a (video) scope like the waveform monitor. We can't know.

But – and this is why I deleted my answer – I think your reason to add the Levels FX was just to mimic your internal Vegas Pro preview to the property of the later web view, right? And if so, I would assume you used the "Studio-RGB to Computer-RGB" preset as a Video Output FX, yes?

Sorry, I deleted my former post because after having read it twice, I thought I mixed some of your informations and questions.

This doesn't answer the question. The only way to get out what your levels are is to control the video signals via a (video) scope like the waveform monitor. We can't know.

But – and this is why I deleted my answer – I think your reason to add the Levels FX was just to mimic your internal Vegas Pro preview to the property of the later web view, right? And if so, I would assume you used the "Studio-RGB to Computer-RGB" preset as a Video Output FX, yes?

Correct - I use the Levels "PC" setting and adjust my scopes accordingly - I leave it ticked when I render. Is that the correct way of doing it?

I apologize if this seems rudimentary. I didn't have to do this kind of thing in PPro and my videos always rendered out the way I expected. So I'm not sure what setting should be active when rendering.

"I leave it ticked when I render. Is that the correct way of doing it?"

I think: No. You would probably need to unselect before rendering. In most cases (but not in all) the browsers video players will make a studio-swing to flull-swing conversion, which is exactly what you also does when using the "PC" Levels preset. When you leave this while rendering, you will end up in a double-stretched signal when watching this video via a web browser (most of the time …).

I myself find it much easier to predict the way Vegas Pro handles the levels, which was one of the reasons I once selected Vegas Pro as my favorite editor.

"I leave it ticked when I render. Is that the correct way of doing it?"

I think: No. You would probably need to unselect before rendering. In most cases (but not in all) the browsers video players will make a studio-swing to flull-swing conversion, which is exactly what you also does when using the "PC" Levels preset. When you leave this while rendering, you will end up in a double-stretched signal when watching this video via a web browser (most of the time …).

I myself find it much easier to predict the way Vegas Pro handles the levels, which was one of the reasons I once selected Vegas Pro as my favorite editor.

I hope I don't come across as dense asking this question but I'm still confused with how Vegas handles output for the web: For delivery to the web only, Other than making color correction adjustments in on the timeline - are there any other settings I need to apply to the output FX?

For web delivery:

1- Add levelFX studio to PC RGB preset to the preview window . It will allow you to see exactly what you will see on the web.

2- Before rendering, disable this LevelFX.

This assume that the web player expand from sRGB to RGB, which is very often true (this is the automatic assumption in Premiere anyway).

Hope that helps

For web delivery:

1- Add levelFX studio to PC RGB preset to the preview window . It will allow you to see exactly what you will see on the web.

2- Before rendering, disable this LevelFX.

This assume that the web player expand from sRGB to RGB, which is very often true (this is the automatic assumption in Premiere anyway).

Hope that helps

Frustrating the extra hoop jumping one has to do in Vegas TBH - PPro was rock solid until this past weekend... I may try a nuke and pave of my hard drive if I can't get more comfortable with Vegas Pro. I have a shoot tomorrow and on Friday and have to deliver within 48 hours - so I can't miss the deadlines for delivery.

Frustrating the extra hoop jumping one has to do in Vegas TBH

This is the steps the extension proposed earlier automate (which doesn't work for you unfortunately).

The Vegas approach, as Marco wrote, allowed a better control over the levels. It requires another step compare to Premiere but you are sure of what you are doing, not relying on internal automatic assumption.

Just follow my previous post (or Marco s one) and everything will be fine.

Frustrating the extra hoop jumping one has to do in Vegas TBH

This is the steps the extension proposed earlier automate (which doesn't work for you unfortunately).

The Vegas approach, as Marco wrote, allowed a better control over the levels. It requires another step compare to Premiere but you are sure of what you are doing, not relying on internal automatic assumption.

Just follow my previous post (or Marco s one) and everything will be fine.

 

I'm debating whether to upgrade to Vegas Pro 14 or not given the challenges I seem to be facing with 13 not working correctly for me - and it's a fresh install to boot.

I'm debating whether to upgrade to Vegas Pro 14

Give it a try, trial is free anyway.

I finally said screw it and currently reinstalling a fresh copy of Windows 10 to make sure everything is as clean as possible. Will install only absolute apps first to see if they work or if it's truly an issue with plugins and such.

I finally said screw it and currently reinstalling a fresh copy of Windows 10 to make sure everything is as clean as possible. Will install only absolute apps first to see if they work or if it's truly an issue with plugins and such.

Update: I did a fresh install of Windows 10 Pro (not restore) on my laptop. Installed all updates before installing apps. Installed only Magix Vegas Pro 13 and it will not see the SeMW extension so it's specific to VP13. I was able to get it to see the Antares PreviewLevels plugin and Vegas2Handbrake is working so that's a start. I installed PPro CS6 and applied all updates - opened several projects and can confirm that Media Encoder fails to render the timeline when sent from Premiere Pro. My suspicion is that Adobe has indeed quietly broken their legacy app to force users into their subscription software scheme. No thanks. I guess I'm using Vegas Pro - now to decide if it's worth the upgrade to VP14 - ANYONE?

hi cliff - i know the feeling. got a bit tired of spending money on software so opted for resolve along side 13. trialed 14 but hate the icons, so bloody confusing and annoying. also, and more importantly, i don't see any better gpu support. not willing to pay for yet another half-baked piece of software. i will however look at 15 to see if the problems have been addressed, but all in all, i'm liking resolve more and more. that said, my stuff is usually short form doco, so i'm never really pushing the envelope ;-)

hi cliff - i know the feeling. got a bit tired of spending money on software so opted for resolve along side 13. trialed 14 but hate the icons, so bloody confusing and annoying. also, and more importantly, i don't see any better gpu support. not willing to pay for yet another half-baked piece of software. i will however look at 15 to see if the problems have been addressed, but all in all, i'm liking resolve more and more. that said, my stuff is usually short form doco, so i'm never really pushing the envelope ;-)

I'm debating using Resolve but given the graphics card in my laptop (Quadro FX880M) I'm not sure it would handle Resolve very well. I'm too close to needing a working NLE this week that I don't dare chance trying to edit paying projects in untested software. I too don't push the envelope, shooting short docs and audio slideshows (a major, underutilized strength of Vegas Pro IMO). My biggest caveat is getting properly rendered projects for the web and I'm still as confused as ever in how to go about that using the Vegas2Handbrake script. With Premiere Pro, my final projects looked as they did in post. No changes in gamma or contrast. This one feature is what's left me scratching my head with editing in Vegas Pro.

quite agree with you re; not changing horses mid stream, and your card's not enough for resolve (though throw the right hardware at it and it's great - as is its proxy mode)...

i've never bothered with handbrake script - i simply knock out a 'master', usually xavc-i and throw it in handbrake to spit out the various mp4's i need, eg, intra web, net, and hd for projection, etc.,

yes, the gamma / contrast shifts in vegas are a PITA - i've started using the mw script(?) for setting preview - it works, though why i have to use it i've no idea.

have to say i'm getting very tired of chasing the illusive perfect nle - they all have pros and cons, and they all seem (with the exception of resolve) to keep expecting me to pay for not quite there functionality.

fortunately now that i'm semi-retired and only doing projects with people i like, or my own, i can afford to be indifferent to the hype and bull that accompanies all the software and cameras nowadays. if i was still running a production facility i'd be pulling what little hair i have left out. more than likely i'd opt for avid media composer, and sony f series cameras with good glass - but with those i'd have to be charging big bickies, and i don't think that's as easy as it used to be;-(

"This one feature is what's left me scratching my head with editing in Vegas Pro."

This is the one which is just a matter of the point of view from where you looking at the things. Actually, from a more technical point of view, Vegas Pro is the one who doesn't do anything to the levels, white and black point, gamma. Vegas Pro doesn't touch your levels when importing the media, it doesn't do while the production process, it doesn't do when exporting.
The systems which may or may not touch your levels you worked on in Vegas Pro come in play after your export. It's players and displays, both of them dependend on the way they were adjusted.

It's some of the other NLEs which actually may change levels. HitFilm does for many types of media (but not all). I think Premiere meanwhile only does dependend on the configuration of project properties, so is for Avid. If you're lucky, these automated level transformations will serve you seeing same levels later distributed via players and/or on video monitors. If you're unlucky exactly this may drive you crazy because chances are your video's levels are no more what would respond to the source levels (it could have deep  disadvantageous impact when doing multi-generation rendering with no color corrections, which would not happen in Vegas Pro).

So one point of view may be: I'm lucky about a system which will automatically serve me level transformations which, for some/many/most circumstances, will adapt to the preview conditions of the final product.
The other point of view may be: I'm lucky about a system which really doesn't touch any level before I don't teill the system to do so. This will need me to take care for the levels at certain points but then again this will prevent me from experiencing surprisingly results for different kinds of viewing conditions or special tasks like compositing or certain multi-generation render processes (this is what Vegas Pro does).

What one need to keep in mind is that the Vegas internal preview is special and maybe is to be considered more kind of a technical control instrument, not as a replacement for a video monitor. So the simple solutions for you may be:
Either connect an external monitor to Vegas Pro which could be adjusted the way an external monitor would.
Or find a way to make the Vegas Pro internal preview window being adjustable this way (which is not by default or by a given switch).
Now if you don't want to connect an external preview, the only solution we found for making the internal preview looking like an external one, is applying an fx like the Levels FX with an appropriate preset. If this certain Levels FX is selected this means: Make the internal preview look like an external. If this certain Levels FX is unselected this means: Let my internal preview be an technical control instrument which shows the video levels just as they are.
SeMW Preview Levels doesn't do any more. It just switches an automated applied Levels FX on and off. On is "equal an external monitoring", off is "be my technical control instrument".

But because this kind of simulation of external monitoring is done by an FX, this would mean it would also affect your render result, thus: Turn it on while editing, turn it off for export.
This is something you should clearly realize: You don't really want to use an FX. You only want to switch your display property.

Don't take this for science. It should just help understanding the levels philosophy of Vegas Pro. I think once one get the way Vegas Pro does the levels thingy, many processes may appear much simpler.

"This one feature is what's left me scratching my head with editing in Vegas Pro."

This is the one which is just a matter of the point of view from where you looking at the things. Actually, from a more technical point of view, Vegas Pro is the one who doesn't do anything to the levels, white and black point, gamma. Vegas Pro doesn't touch your levels when importing the media, it doesn't do while the production process, it doesn't do when exporting.
The systems which may or may not touch your levels you worked on in Vegas Pro come in play after your export. It's players and displays, both of them dependend on the way they were adjusted.

It's some of the other NLEs which actually may change levels. HitFilm does for many types of media (but not all). I think Premiere meanwhile only does dependend on the configuration of project properties, so is for Avid. If you're lucky, these automated level transformations will serve you seeing same levels later distributed via players and/or on video monitors. If you're unlucky exactly this may drive you crazy because chances are your video's levels are no more what would respond to the source levels (it could have deep  disadvantageous impact when doing multi-generation rendering with no color corrections, which would not happen in Vegas Pro).

So one point of view may be: I'm lucky about a system which will automatically serve me level transformations which, for some/many/most circumstances, will adapt to the preview conditions of the final product.
The other point of view may be: I'm lucky about a system which really doesn't touch any level before I don't teill the system to do so. This will need me to take care for the levels at certain points but then again this will prevent me from experiencing surprisingly results for different kinds of viewing conditions or special tasks like compositing or certain multi-generation render processes (this is what Vegas Pro does).

What one need to keep in mind is that the Vegas internal preview is special and maybe is to be considered more kind of a technical control instrument, not as a replacement for a video monitor. So the simple solutions for you may be:
Either connect an external monitor to Vegas Pro which could be adjusted the way an external monitor would.
Or find a way to make the Vegas Pro internal preview window being adjustable this way (which is not by default or by a given switch).
Now if you don't want to connect an external preview, the only solution we found for making the internal preview looking like an external one, is applying an fx like the Levels FX with an appropriate preset. If this certain Levels FX is selected this means: Make the internal preview look like an external. If this certain Levels FX is unselected this means: Let my internal preview be an technical control instrument which shows the video levels just as they are.
SeMW Preview Levels doesn't do any more. It just switches an automated applied Levels FX on and off. On is "equal an external monitoring", off is "be my technical control instrument".

But because this kind of simulation of external monitoring is done by an FX, this would mean it would also affect your render result, thus: Turn it on while editing, turn it off for export.
This is something you should clearly realize: You don't really want to use an FX. You only want to switch your display property.

Don't take this for science. It should just help understanding the levels philosophy of Vegas Pro. I think once one get the way Vegas Pro does the levels thingy, many processes may appear much simpler.

Hi Marco, thanks for your detailed response. So my set up does include a second monitor, albeit not attached to a dedicated card for secondary display. I'm using the display port on my laptop to preview thru a 15" HDTV. The laptop monitor is used as the display for working.

Having said that, my confusion lies with the process of exporting my work for web viewing and trying to not get any gamma/exposure/contrast shifts. For me, I just want to get my work done, and not wrestle with any surprises when delivering my work. I guess the automated process has made me expect things to just work. If I had a step by step process for Vegas, my confusion would be a non issue.

I deliver 100% of my projects for the web. Never once been asked to deliver to disc or broadcast. So my question is, what settings and when do I activate/deactivate to get what is needed for a final render through Vegas2Handbrake? Or is this the lynch pin that totally confusing me? If it weren't for this computer hiccup and up against the wall for time, I'd just research more but today is one of 2 days for shooting and editing. I just need to deliver on time and to the clients specs.

I shoot Olympus mirrorless cameras for a mix of still and video depending on project. 8bit h264 native clips in every project.

What's the workflow once I'm ready to render is the real question for me.

A simple step by step process would help get me really started with transitioning over to Vegas Pro. And the question still remains - is Vegas PRo 14 worth the upgrade? (Maybe a separate thread for this question?)

Thanks for any help you can provide.

There is no difference whether you render via HandBrake or use an internal given export format. The most simple answer is: Just ensure your preview shows same levels as the final web views does. Then edit your footage you like it (and your audience will like it) and export without any further adjustment.

Then again: If you use the Levels FX to mimic a different kind of preview, then you need to unselect this certain Levels FX before export.

There is no difference whether you render via HandBrake or use an internal given export format. The most simple answer is: Just ensure your preview shows same levels as the final web views does. Then edit your footage you like it (and your audience will like it) and export without any further adjustment.

Then again: If you use the Levels FX to mimic a different kind of preview, then you need to unselect this certain Levels FX before export.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:. Apply no output FX during editing and/rendering if for the web only? Is it that simple? I could be complicating this when it doesn't have to be. Lost in translation/ understanding on my end?

Just to ensure we mean same: When I talk about a "Video Output FX" refering to Vegas Pro I mean applying an FX onto the preview window, instead of applying it onto the source media, a track or onto an Event. Do you mean same?

Stop, there is kind of a typo in my post you quoted. It says: "Just ensure your preview …" which might be quite confusing. It should say instead:

"Just ensure your display (or preview device) …"

And it means whatever display or preview device you use, make sure it behaves same way as the final web view does.

Maybe this will help? I believe I got it from this forum and it helps adjusting the preview, external monitor and final result to the right levels.

Stop, there is kind of a typo in my post you quoted. It says: "Just ensure your preview …" which might be quite confusing. It should say instead:

"Just ensure your display (or preview device) …"

And it means whatever display or preview device you use, make sure it behaves same way as the final web view does.

ok so let me state it another way: For my preview device (in this case the 15" display attached to my laptops display port) - Do I need to apply any FX to the preview monitor viewer for web delivered projects? f  apply color grading/effects to clips on the timeline, can I just render without having any sort of gamma/contrast/exposure shifts? Or am I needing to apply the PC levels option to view before rendering? I think this is where all my confusion is occurring...