Vegas never touches the levels, no matter if video or image file. That's why I like Vegas Pro so much.

Try yourself. Copy this image, use in Vegas Pro, render to a common video format, re-import in Vegas Pro and see.

When I said "never" above - I remember vaguely, there once was one type of MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 which behaved differently. Don't know if this changed somewhen, but I never encountered this case in my work.

Just loaded the image on an 8 bit 1080p timeline - The words don't show on the preview on my 15" secondary display but they do show in the preview window on the laptops display. If I apply the Computer RGB to Studio RGB FX to the preview, the letters show

Gotcha. Then use that attached 15" display as your "video" monitor and whatever you edit in Vegas Pro: If you like it the way it looks on the attached display, just render without using any additional correction. In most cases the web view will look like what you see on your attached display.

And maybe in future you will like this, too. Because at the same time you could use your internal preview as technical control tool which will show you what's going on in the ranges of super-black and super-white and your attached display will show the visual result which is just like the final web view.

Vegas never touches the levels, no matter if video or image file. That's why I like Vegas Pro so much.

Try yourself. Copy this image, use in Vegas Pro, render to a common video format, re-import in Vegas Pro and see.

When I said "never" above - I remember vaguely, there once was one type of MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 which behaved different. Don't know if this changed somewhen, but I never encountered this case in my work.

I think my post didn't quite explain what I meant. When I put a still image from my a6300 on the timeline together with footage from my AX100, I have to apply the "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" fx to the stills in order to get the same levels as the AX100. This is all in addition to using the Levels Plugin in the Video Bus which I have set to PC.

Gotcha. Then use that attached 15" display as your "video" monitor and whatever you edit in Vegas Pro and like it the way it looks on the attached display, just render without using any additional correction. In most cases the web view will look like what you see on your attached display.

And maybe in future you will like this, too. Because at the same time you could use your internal preview as technical control tool which will show you what's going on in the ranges of super-black and super-white and your attached display will show the visual result which is just like the final web view.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! Sorry to have been dense around this - guess when you have it done automagically in the background, you lose a sense of control without realizing it.

Also, if I have a project to deliver for broadcast or disc, I would apply something like the TV output setting on the secondary preview monitor and adjust those accordingly?

"When I put a still image from my a6300 on the timeline together with footage from my AX100, I have to apply the "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" fx to the stills in order to get the same levels as the AX100."

This may be. This isn't because Vegas Pro handles these levels differently but because these levels were differently recorded by the camera.
But this isn't always the case, it depends on how a camera records video levels. Many use a 16-254/255 range and some even 0-255 and in the latter case these levels would be equal to your foto levels.

"Also, if I have a project to deliver for broadcast or disc, I would apply something like the TV output setting on the secondary preview monitor and adjust those accordingly?"

Yes, sort of, but then things getting more complicated. In case of broadcast delivery it is not just a matter whether you like the way the video looks or not. Then levels should strongly behave the way the broadcasting station prescribes. You need to carefully control your levels via the scopes then.
A rough method I sometimes use is doing right the way I recommended to you for your web delivery and in the end using my own FX package I made which mimics a broadcast limiter (not for preview but solely for export).

Also, this certain "TV" Levels preset is based on EBU recommendations. I don't know how far this has any validity for US television.

"When I put a still image from my a6300 on the timeline together with footage from my AX100, I have to apply the "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" fx to the stills in order to get the same levels as the AX100."

This may be. This isn't because Vegas Pro handles these levels differently but because these levels were differently recorded by the camera.
But this isn't always the case, it depends on how a camera records video levels. Many use a 16-254/255 range and some even 0-255 and in the latter case these levels would be equal to your foto levels.

👍 Always good to have that refreshed.

Edit:

I still prefer the Levels Extension with the "PC" setting because the scopes match my output too... unless I am wrong again with that assumption.

Given I have yet to be asked to deliver to disc or broadcast - I'm not concerned about it, but my work is all web delivery and wanted to make sure I'm getting it right for my paying clients. Thanks again for everything!

You're very welcome. :)

Now that this one case may be a bit clearer - Should I spread a bit of uncertainty over it …?

You're very welcome. :)

Now that this one case may be a bit clearer - Should I spread a bit of uncertainty over it …?

LOL! OK???? 😨

Well, I said that recommended workflow will be fine for most cases of web delivery. This is because the players web browers use behave right opposite to the way Vegas internal preview does. Vegas internal preview will not stretch the levels, no matter how you configured your computer's grafic device. And vice versa web browsers usually will stretch levels, no matter how you configured your computer's grafic device. I think this might be so in (maybe at least) 9 of 10 cases.
But there are also cases where a web browser will follow the settings of the computer's grafic device and if this one is configured to display full levels, then the web view would behave exactly like the Vegas internal preview does.

Latter is the case on the notebook I just write this post on. When I watch YouTube videos via Microsoft Edge or Internet Explorer, then the video will be shown same way as Vegas internal preview does (because I configured my grafic device this way). On same notebook when using Chrome browser, or on my other netbook (where I can't configure the grafic device), Youtube videos' levels will always be stretched.

So be prepared there may be people who will see the levels of your web delivery different than most others do. But then you just have no chance. There is no way to make this work same for each and any case. You could offer two versions, each with different video levels, but I doubt this would make sense. Better decide to please the vast majority.

I realize that Web delivery isn't ideal, just trying to find the best option so I at least get into the ballpark for this - it's the same as people who never calibrate their HDTV's - many times I've seen terrible results due to people not knowing any better. It's not ideal, but want to at least know I did the best I could on my end and then let the chips fall where they may.

OldSmoke, the video you linked in page 3 of this thread works similar to YouTube videos here (so this is a good test file). I first only watched via Chrome (and my small netbook). I only saw the words "CORRECT" until I opened the video within Edge and IE, where I also saw the "IN" before "CORRECT".

Marco, I am sure I got it from this forum along time ago... just cant remember who posted it. I find it very handy and it helped me a lot.

OldSmoke, the video you linked in page 3 of this thread works similar to YouTube videos here (so this is a good test file). I first only watched via Chrome (and my small netbook). I only saw the words "CORRECT" until I opened the video within Edge and IE, where I also saw the "IN" before "CORRECT".

Same results for me as well.... So what does this say about my thread? All bets are off and you do the best you can in post? For me, delivering one final edit is what I'm expected to deliver due to the nature of the content and platform it's delivered to. Given Edge browser is still no where near the use that Chrome is, I wonder if it's a non issue at the end of the day...

I think Edge and IE might have a market share of about 20 % max nowadays (I may be wrong, according to this statistic it is even 14 % only). But remember it's not the browser only which determines how web videos' levels will be displayed. Even if someone is using latest version of Edge/IE, it would also need to have the grafic device configured to display full levels for video playback. I think most are not. So I would neglect this minority (them will be fine seeing a flatter signal).

I think Edge and IE might have a market share of about 20 % max nowadays (I may be wrong, according to this statistic it is even 14 % only). But remember it's not the browser only which determines how web videos' levels will be displayed. Even if someone is using latest version of Edge/IE, it would also need to have the grafic device configured to display full levels for video playback. I think most are not. So I would neglect this minority (them will be fine seeing a flatter signal).

Agreed....

As a follow up - I performed this test: I rendered a short clip from both PPro CS6 and Vegas Pro 13 - each clip was rendered as a Cineform AVI and dropped onto a Blank Vegas Pro 13 Timeline - My observation is that the rendered clip from Premiere Pro is having a 16-235 contrast range applied automatically, where as I need to apply the cRGB to sRGB Levels effect at the clip level to attain the same results in Vegas Pro. No output FX were applied to the Cineform AVI rendered from Vegas Pro. The actual rendered Cineform clip from Vegas came in at 0-255 so it seems PPro is automatically applying the 16-235 broadcast safe levels (Using the DSLR 1080-30p template preset in Premiere Pro).

If I understand this correctly, in order to attain the same render as Premiere Pro for contrast range/levels, etc - I would need to apply the cRGB to sRGB levels in the Output FX Chain?

"If I understand this correctly, in order to attain the same render as Premiere Pro for contrast range/levels, etc - I would need to apply the cRGB to sRGB levels in the Output FX Chain?"

From what you showed: Yes.

I'm cautious about to say: "Just forget about the measured levels for your web purposes." But at least for this task it is less important what your scopes says as what your eyes see (if previewed correctly).

So what you found out is certainly true but nonetheless the workflow we found for Vegas Pro will work fine either.

In Premiere Pro you will rarely know what your video levels really are, though in the end in most cases your output will be fine. In Vegas Pro you will always know what your video levels are but you have to take care about how you preview.

"If I understand this correctly, in order to attain the same render as Premiere Pro for contrast range/levels, etc - I would need to apply the cRGB to sRGB levels in the Output FX Chain?"

From what you showed: Yes.

I'm cautious about to say: "Just forget about the measured levels for your web purposes." But at least for this task it is less important what your scopes says as what your eyes see (if previewed correctly).

So what you found out is certainly true but nonetheless the workflow we found for Vegas Pro will work fine either.

In Premiere Pro you will never know what your video levels really are, though in the end in most cases your output will be fine. In Vegas Pro you will always know what your video levels are but you have to take care about how you preview.

I honestly had no idea this was happening in Premiere Pro until I did this test - I couldn't figure out why I like the look of my renders from Premiere over Vegas - now I know why - I just observed in a recent video I edited in Premiere Pro that I uploaded to Vimeo that the contrast looked nice and snappy - without the highlights getting blown out - I have a feeling Google Chrome is making the 0-255 adjustment(?)

My thinking is create a Vegas Pro Project Template with specific settings for the OutputFX to match more closely the results I get from Premiere Pro. That way I know what I'm getting for the most part. I'm ingesting content from a shoot I did yesterday and about to start editing and I'm now debating whether to jump in with both feet using Vegas Pro or stick with what I know - ie; Premiere Pro...

My feeling is you start going round in circles.

"My thinking is create a Vegas Pro Project Template with specific settings for the OutputFX to match more closely the results I get from Premiere Pro."

So if you watch your edit via that attached display this would mean you do not want your final result to look equal to what you saw during your edit.
Or: You then do not use your attached display but the internal preview. Then when you use video footage with reference levels of 16-235 you'll think it's too flat, add FX to stretch the levels so it looks nice and when outputting, you would compress levels again so that it works on web.

You can do both but the only important thing you need to know is how your preview works in relation to what your audience will see later.