It is really sad...

You guys are not listening....

...All I can say is; I hope you can pull it together for the life of a great company, a great group of products with a solid foundation.

As long as you continue listening to guys who think it's ok to use two DAWs to do jobs that are being successfully done in other applications on single machines without glitches or hiccups....

..You'll be building applications to be used by car stereo installers and high school teachers and you will lose any hopes of capturing the attention of people who do nothing but make a living as producers and recording engineers.

I have to back up TMRPro on this. And I am SO glad he also was unable to pull off a large scale software input monitoring setup across a few different PC's

so there are a few points here

Samplitude and nuendo CAN both pull off 18 tracks of software monitoring, with fx on some of the inputs, at 6ms latency. This is some sort of efficiency thing, and I dont doubt you guys will get this figured out. Vegas has shined in the efficiency department in the past, so I am confident you fuys will work this out

Both samplitude and nuendo can run ASIO DM in an AMAZING way, with the exact same hardware. If that is open to both of them, is it not open to Vegas too?

ASIO DM is not just a boon for recording. It also allows you to set up cue mixes and other goodies without taxing your PC. Even better, while mixing, ASIO DM allows you to integrate outboard gear. You can send your vocal track thru your favorite compressor. It MURDERS just simply arming a track and throwing it in software auto input mode ( which is too processor intensive at this point to work anyway)

The latency in software input monitoring IS unacceptable. However, there are cases where, if we could get it to around 6 mS it is a useable crutch. I record a lot of metal. 10ms latency is WAY WAY WAY too much for many of the guitarists I record.

Confidence. I would love to worry about other things, than wondering if there are going to be gaps and glitches in the recording. Software input monitoring is sketchy!

Regarding the using two systems thing. it IS working, but it is a supreme pain in the but. You need another monitor, keep switching keys ( or in my case using a keyboard/mouse switcher, and locking two PC's thru midi isnt the most confidence inspiring.

I have to back up Peter on this. Two or three times a yearI will go messing around with other apps, to see if they support the features I need that are missing from Vegas. I find all sorts of wonderful things in the other apps, but it means nothing.

For the work I do, the editing is so pathetic compared to Vegas that I will never get any work done in time. It is frustratingly difficult in most apps to even line up a single event with the exact place you want it. Auto crossfades like vegas? forget it. One mouse tool like vegas? forget it, samplitude is starting to come close to the one tool thing though, but miles away in terms of other aspects

Don't read between the lines. Really. We are always looking at ways to improve our products and appeal to a broader audiance. We have never stood still.

Peter

Peter Said:
"Many users of Vegas and other products use software based input monitoring with out any problems.)"

RednRoll Commented:
Peter, can't you see what you're saying? These other people are not "professionals", any "professional" knows you must have hardware direct monitoring and "any latency" is unexceptable in a monitoring situation. Obviously, you've never done any hardware monitoring, because you have never owned any hardware in your lifetime......I won't go on any further, you've heard all the contradictive hot air before. :-)

Red, all I can say is; if that was supposed to be funny, I missed it, because it's not. Nor is the fact that many Vegas users are immensly disappointed that the program still falls short as an audio multitrack application when compared to its competition and are starting to use the competition's software because it answers a lot of the audio solutions that you don't have as a Vegas user.

If you really want to help in the development of Sony Media Products, then you need to help provide answers to Peter that helps him understand why so many people are actually stopping to use Vegas and starting to use Nuendo, Sonar & Samplitude for audio. Instead of trying to make fun of the professionals and referring to comments and suggestions as "contradictive hot air".

I am not arguing against ASIO Direct Input Monitoring. I am only stating that not everybody finds it unnacceptable. Yes, there are some that will never find it acceptable.

Regardless of what tmrpro or any other "professionals" out there want to believe, we do know about all of these things. Ok, we don't give you 100% of what you want. What we do give doesn't work - FOR YOU. Fine, we get that.

Titles and position and claims to fame and what "pros" want - yawn....

I have heard it all over and over again. We do what we do. Some want more, some are satisfied. I can assure you that WE (the Sony Developers) are NEVER satisfied.

My argument is with blanket generalizations. No, it is not unnacceptable to EVERYONE. Yes, it is unnacceptable to some. Big difference in my judgment..

However, I wont ever - and NEVER have - claim or mislead ANY user or beta tester to believe that we do something we don't.

Peter

>>If you really want to help in the development of Sony Media Products, then you need to help provide answers to Peter that helps him understand why so many people are actually stopping to use Vegas and starting to use Nuendo, Sonar & Samplitude for audio. <<

Nope. Nobody has to convince me. I know EXACTLY what is going on and why some Vegas users are switching to other tools. Not my call to change it.

Peter

Peter Wrote:
Titles and position and claims to fame and what "pros" want - yawn....

I'm really sorry you don't care, Peter. Is that the general consensus at the Sony Shop?

Keep yawning and we'll keep moving forward!!!

I'm contacting my rep, first thing Tuesday morning!

Peter Wrote:
I know EXACTLY what is going on and why some Vegas users are switching to other tools. Not my call to change it.

Then, answer this:

What can we as users do to help?

How did we miss the boat on the biggest thread on this forum....

Do you remember me saying that the "What Vegas Needs" thread was a "Waste of time". You became irritated with me and said it wasn't. Now, you want to say it's out of your hands? Come on Peter... Who do we need to talk to? Aren't you the liason between Sony Media and the consumer of this specific product?

Fill us in, because there's a lot of us who like you and want to see these products be the standard of the industry, not just another app that does some cool things.

Caiwyn said:
I expect that we'll see ACID 5, or at least some news about it, during the summer NAMM show. That will probably be the moment of truth.

Unfortunately, Sony won't be at Summer NAMM .... so don't be looking there....

:-(

" I would actually rather have all the DVD audio features I listed for my workflow. It seems like the only one that offers these features in software is Minnetoka and the price is pretty expensive."

I to, wish SONY would build DVD-A features in DVD/CD Architecht.

But they are pushing SACD, wich is inferior to DVD-A.

Why do you say that the Minnetonka solution is pretty expencive??
It's $99.

The funny thing is; most people don't know what the heck they're talking about....

Golli Said:
But they are pushing SACD, wich is inferior to DVD-A.

Huh?

You're not suggesting that there is any support in any of the Sony Media products for SACD are you?

There's not.

Also, the "Discwelder Bronze" software that you are referring to for $99 is not a mastering solution. You can only burn DVD one-offs... I think Red was actually talking about a "pro" solution...

The real deal (Discwelder Chrome w/MLP) through Minnetonka's about $5K.... You could, of coarse go with Sonic Solutions' solution for about $10k......

Ahhh.... never mind....

"You're not suggesting that there is any support in any of the Sony Media products for SACD are you?

There's not."

BUT THEY ARE PUSHING SACD.

That is what I was saying. Sony will support DVD-A when hell freezes over.

I know that the $99 solution is only a "burner".

But they (minnetonka) offer a "STEEL" solution at about $499 that can do 5.1 in 96k

If RED is doing his mastering inside the SONY apps, why would he need to spend $5-$10k on another masterin suite??

It is well known that good/pro solutions, dont have to be 4 figures high

"
The funny thing is; most people don't know what the heck they're talking about....
"
That, sure is constructive.

If you want a ray of hope for future rewire support:

Hold down control + shift when you go to preferences. Click on the internal tab and scroll down a bit. You will see a value:

Mixer Enable Rewire Devices

(it's set to false of course)

I guess rewire pretty much *has* to be in the pipeline if this is there!

There are some other surprise tidbits of info too:

other catagories include:

MIDI default softsynth type
MIDI default softsynth name
Metronome BUS ID (I guess we could have metronome popping up on a buss if we want in the future)
Event Group Selection (this is set to FALSE, could this be for the event fade tails I wonder...)
EDefEnvAudioASRType (I guess the default fade types on events can be changed!)
Use Threaded Rendering Mixer (Dualies and P4s jump in here!)
Use High Priority Rendering Thread (set to false!)
Timestetch Quality (!!!!!)

As always use these settings with caution as any problems you have will not have tech support! These aren't Vegas features but more a hidden page of what might be in the future. Maybe some are partially developed, or buggy.

Beware!

Jason

Sirs of sony....

We know that you work with passion.
You are for the listening of your customers and your shareholders.
It is normal to choose.
It is normal to make sortings in the propositions.

We like products sony.

We sometimes ask for everything and the opposite following the user.

But our remarks are not to criticize you.
We pass of time on products acid, vegas, and soundforge.
Our new demands, are partially connected to the changes of orientations of acid and vegas.
Acid was a tremendous to tracker it changed by opening at the idifile and vst.
Vegas pro was an exellent multitrack audio.
It changed it open in the video.

Then here is.

Those who exclusively wish to make of the audio, find with regret of the functions and the tools to the competition, who are very useful and miss now in acid or vegas.

It no speak not no to redo " samplitude or nuendo. or ableton live3 melodyne etc....
No.
We just have to buy them.

But to continue the spirit of departure; easy to use, effective tools and of audio quality.

What annoys me, it is not to take advantage of essential tools otherwise with " rewire ".
Furthermore when I invested in vegas " video " I buy video function which I would never use.
You cannot thus be also effective as the competitors.
You have to develop for an identical ;money in 2 different domains.

Good courage.

I think you are trying to say that Sony Media and Sony are one in the same .... You would think they were, and that Sony Media would run with the torch to provide us with the ability to create SACD masters with the SM family of audio/video applications... But this is not the case ....yet ...let's see what they do in the future...

Golli Said:
If RED is doing his mastering inside the SONY apps, why would he need to spend $5-$10k on another masterin suite??

In this case they do.... There are only two options, both of which come in at 4xfour+ $-figures...

Minnetonka Discwelder Steel without the rest of the necessary elements to create a DVD-A master is like trying to drive to the country with a can of gas & no car.

Steel is not a pro solution. It only offers a user the ability to burn a DVD-A audio-only reference disk that they can listen to in their DVD-A player. You can not create a "master" with this software.

Of the Minnetonka software solutions:
1. You must have Discwelder Chrome to compile and edit a DVD-A master from MLP-packed audio source files.

Please accept my apology, Golli for sounding harsh by saying you didn't know what you were talking about.

The really scary part for Sony is that they should realise that when other apps successfully copy their editing environment and ease of use then they will lose all their customers. If Cubase had the interface of Vegas i would change in a heartbeat.

I am very tired of the "excuses" for not implementing Rewire and quite a few other things that have been requested.
The reason´s for not implementing basic DAW functions (and that means DAw´s for today and the future not just a hard disc recorder for old people that have a problem with new and scary functions ) have to do with stability and ease of use ....Gimme a break....excuses , excuses
For me it seems like a question of money and manpower and apparently Sony isnt ready to allocate either to make this the best Daw there is.
Im confident that Vegas could toast the competition if they had the resources and came off this reluctancy to being really innovative and inspiring.

It just seems weird that the company that came up with Acid for christ´s sake!!! , is having such problems realising what to do with Vegas.

I have come to the conclusion that Sony is simply not clued up on how this business of engineering works today, simple as that.
Times are moving fast and vegas isnt keeping up, which means that i will end up still using an outdated version of vegas in ten years when all other programs have neural interfaces and dna composers...why??
The bloody interface and thats it!

So again...when that is successfully copied , im out´a here.

>>Do you remember me saying that the "What Vegas Needs" thread was a "Waste of time". You became irritated with me and said it wasn't. Now, you want to say it's out of your hands? Come on Peter... Who do we need to talk to? Aren't you the liason between Sony Media and the consumer of this specific product?
<<

I do remember, but you take it out of context. It was not a waste of time. In fact I used what was posted as a user wish list all the time. To be honest, not much of it is new. I have heard this all before and know exactly what the other tools in the MI market space can or cannot do.

I am not the liason for Sony Media. I am an engineer that developes audio features for Vegas and ACID. I am here to answer questions, listen to gripes, and gather information. I am here to help improve the products and find out what users are doing and how they use our tools.

In all honesty I agree with everything you are asking for.

You know who to talk to. I can't give out names and addresses in a public forum, sorry.

Peter

You are very wrong. I do care - a great deal.

What I don't care for is all of this posturing and "what a pro wants" talk.

I have heard it soooo many times before, and it means nothing. Our products are used by many.

Sure it is nice to hear that some "name" guy is using our stuff, but it is not what motivates me. I want to provide the best tools for audio that I can. That means to everybody, not just some group that thinks "pro" means this, that or the other thing.

I am motivated by the user base at large and don't care for all of this "I know bob the rock star" or "I have worked on Producer X's latest mix". More power to those that have a paying gig and are working in the industry. If our tools help get the job done, then that is what I care about. If our tools don't do something then that is what I focus on improving.

Peter

"In all honesty I agree with everything you are asking for."

I second that, it's not that I disagree with what you're saying, I believe you are correct, and why not improve on something if it could be made to function better? It's the constant tone of no one understands this, only me, I'm the only professional, and if I don't grab Sony by the hand, they'll never get it, because only I and my 5 Nashville colleagues, are professional enough to understand it. We're the only ones who have used hardware in a professional studio. Sony only knows about how to program software, but have no clue to how things work in a real studio workflow. I wonder sometimes, how you have any room left in the control room, with a head so large.

I asked you "why."

and Caiwyn, I already answered you why. I'll reitterate it again for you since you seem to have a hardtime understanding what I wrote the first time. I prefer my audio and midi seperate, because to me they are 2 very different things that I work with differently. Therefore, I like them to be organized seperately and not mixed together. I prefer to have my midi app and tracks on one screen, while my audio app and tracks on another screen. It becomes more effecient for me, because when working with midi it's mostly all preproduction, then the audio get's added later. I don't want to have to wade and scroll through 40 tracks of midi to find an audio track. It's 2 seperate thinking processes for me, therefore I prefer to keep them seperate, but be able to play them together. Also, by having all my midi tracks on a seperate PC than my audio app, it leaves more processing power for my audio tracks. As I said, if I had what I wanted it wouldn't be audio and midi tracks combined in the same app. If I wanted that, I would already be using Logic audio, Cubase, or Sonar. I actually have Cubase and Logic audio, and still prefer my seperate application workflow with Vegas+Vision. What I want is a seperate midi application, speciallizing in midi sequencing. I actually think Acid is on the correct path, but still lacks some midi sequencing features to make my workflow effecient enough to use it. So again, what I would like is a seperate midi app, with Vegas having rewire. This way if I wanted to keep things seperate, like I currently do, I could buy a dual monitor setup and place Vegas on one screen (ie audio), and the sequencer on the other screen (ie midi) and have them perfectly in sync. A lot less clutter and effecient workflow, the reason why I use Vegas. Adding midi tracks will hinder that workflow for me. If I wanted to maintain my current workflow, I could choose to do that also by having seperate PC's. The major difference is that I would have an App that specialized in midi sequencing ability. Look at all the midi/audio combination programs. No one, thinks they're extremely powerful in one area or the other. Protools? Sucks in midi functions. Cubase? Audio is very less desireable compared to Vegas. Logic? Very unintuitive on both sides, yet very powerful. Sonar? They're coming along by stealing a lot of Vegas features, but I still don't believe their midi is all that great, compared to my sequencer that's been discontinued for 5 years now. I'm sure they think it's perfect already. Try this in Sonar. Create a two bar loop, a 4 bar loop, and a 6 bar loop. Now have them loop together for 16 bars. A lot of copy cutting and pasting in Sonar. In Vision, I put loop brackets around each loop, and tell the sequence it's 16 bars in duration. Try creating seperate sequences of intro, verse, chorus bridge...get them out of your view and assemble them on ONE track in a step record function. These are important features to me that make my workflow simplified, with less screen space being taken up.

Now, all of this is my personal workflow preferences. It doesn't matter to me, what you consider more productive, because what you find more productive is counter productive to me. Who's right? No one, it's all personal preference, and I don't prefer YOUR work method. I'm glad that Sony listens to both sides and makes a workflow that can work for both.