I think Peter and Rednroll you are taking TMRPro the wrong way. It is NOT a gray area, it is NOT a bunch of fuzzy lines. If you were to ask any professional record maker about what they expect from a professional multitrack and mixing product I think they would tell you the same things TMR says, and I have been saying for years. I think that is his point. You can disagree that latency free monitoring would be a NEED vs a want, but you would be wrong.

I realize this is a whole new paradigm, as DAW's are a new field, and made for the most part by midi sequencer makers, but when they enter the world of "professional multitrack" I think they need to bow a little to the long established rules. Dont take my word for it, or TMR's. Go ask on George massenburg's forum, for instance.

I dont doubt the desire for Vegas to correct its few flaws eventually, I just object to the thinking that there ARENT some true rules of behaviour for a multitrack or a mixer

Has anyone noticed what a small minority the Vegas Audio users are? Sony is a big corporation. Decisions are made by financial people and marketing people. The shareholders are the ultimate owners and decision makers.

The problem is that Vegas has turned into a video editing program with really nice audio features. It started when Sonic Foundry went public (sold stock) and took away the seperation of Audio and Video. They were always one program, but from a marketing standpoint they were seperate until version 3. The audio label was dropped completely. Now if you were an audio guy, you upgraded to "Vegas Video".

Granted this is all just marketing semantics, but to get a rough idea of who the users of Vegas are, look at the number of posts in the Video Forum - almost 10 times as many as in this one! If there are 10 times as many Video users, that means that roughly 90% of Vegas users are video guys. The money is in the video side of things.

We can't expect Vegas' updates to compete with an audio only or music DAW program when their updates contain audio and video features.

If the ratio of 10:1 video to audio users is correct, we should all be thankful for the audio updates that Vegas has gotten. Frankly, it's surprising the audio side isn't ignored altogether!

I still find Vegas useful for what I am doing, but I don't see a future that some may be hoping for. For anyone who is doing a serious amount of MIDI programming, one has to ask why they are using Vegas at all.

I'm looking forward to what happens with Acid and Vegas, but I'm also looking around.
Who knows, I've been surprised before...

Not at all. I know exactly what tmrpro is say - as I know what you have said and are still saying.

I know what both of you want and need. I am not arguing that at all.

I want Vegas and any of our tools to solve everybodies problems. From yours and tmrpro's perspective, Vegas does not today. I hear you loud and clear.

I just don't like absolutes. Yes, I know very well the "professional" opinions on such things as latency and input monitoring, and integration into a studio and workflow. I know what can be done, and am very aware of the technologies to achieve these goals. I know the limitations of software based input monitoring. I don't care how many times you or tmrpro say it, it is not unnacceptable to everybody. It is unaccetable to you, and users like you. I know this. However. you do not represent everybody let alone - dare I say it - the average Vegas user.

Peter

"However. you do not represent everybody let alone - dare I say it - the average Vegas user."

What do you think the chances are they'll take that the RIGHT way?? ;-)

Mario

Red Said:
It's the constant tone of no one understands this, only me, I'm the only professional, and if I don't grab Sony by the hand, they'll never get it, because only I and my 5 Nashville colleagues, are professional enough to understand it.

I'm sorry, Red.

I don't mean to come off that way.

We all have our faults & I guess that is one of mine.

Maybe I've felt like I've had to point out that I'm not an idiot because guys like you treat anyone as if they are idiots if they disagree with your unique point of view.

I hope you can accept my most humble apology.

Peter Said:
It is unaccetable to you, and users like you. I know this. However. you do not represent everybody let alone - dare I say it - the average Vegas user.

Without arguing or being defensive I would like to point out that this is a pretty long thread with a lot more "Nays" than "Yeas" about user's satisfaction.

Right we dont represent the average vegas user. I think it is a boon to be able to say, yeah, home guys use this, video guys use this, and yet professionals do too.

Not only is it an affordable solution, it is a PROFESSIONAL solution.

that can't hurt sales

I was trying to learn photoshop a few weeks ago. We got a pic of me standing in front of our racks of mic pre's. I made a fake ad and everything. The caption on the pic said, " I can afford any DAW solution out there. I choose Vegas."
Then we had another pic of our production room, looks like someone's bedroom, showing someone sitting in front of a small PC monitor with Vegas on the screen. Our caption said " Times are tight for a struggling student. Student loans couldnt begin to cover the cost for my recording equipment. Fortunately there's Vegas"

I oughtta send these in.

I think I understand the "average vegas user" well enough, since many of them are my customers, working at home, in their bedrooms on their budgets. If there were ever a utopian tool for everyone, this is it.

All that said, I do believe there are rules, maybe not written, but universally acknowledged about monitoring and such. We threw a lot of them out the window in order to use vegas, threw them out the window to mess with a PC in the first place, and yes it DOES work, but can it be better? Surely!

I have faith and I dont doubt things will get better and better. They always have, with some exceptions, but even those are being taken care of. It just gets aggrivating sometimes to see little glimpses of the dream yet to be, then to realize there is still a wall between us and that fulfillment. ASIO DM opened my eyes in a BIG way.

The Mackie Control support changed work as I know it in a HUGE way

there's just a few leaps and bounds left, then we can all start fighting about the shape and colors of icons...personal stuff, instead of higly desired, if not necessary features.

"...I would like to point out that this is a pretty long thread with a lot more "Nays" than "Yeas" about user's satisfaction. "

In my experiance, the negative is always reported while the postive just goes unsaid.

You are right this thread has gone on long enough. No point in debating it further.

Peter

bravo
very good conclusion

The thing I find really ironic about this whole ASIO direct monitoring need debate is that not one person even mentioned this feature in the Vegas 5: tell us what you need post. Also, Tmrpro had V5 almost 4 months before it was ever released and not once mentioned a problem with monitoring latency until it was released. I think before spouting off in a forum and condeming a program that doesn't personally work for you, you should start to except some of that blame. You've had plenty of opportunity to let Sony know ,what you wanted and opportunity to explain your workflow that the current method wasn't working. How come you never mentioned anything before, when there was a better chance to change things? I checked everything out that I use in my workflow. The only thing that wasn't working properly was my hardware controler and that got reported before release.

"The thing I find really ironic about this whole ASIO direct monitoring need debate is that not one person even mentioned this feature in the Vegas 5: tell us what you need post. "

Another way to look at that is "what of the suggestions in that post was actually implemented in Vegas 5"?

No you see...renroll dreams he's some sf\sony developer, taking time out of his "BUSY" schedule... replying OVER AND OVER why everything is what it should be.
What would Sony_PCH_INEFFECTUAL do without these few here like red who cover their asses each day with arguments as for why vegas is just perfect as is...and how we're all just "nuts" for thinking more should have come by now.

I'm hoping either someone either pumps enough meds into red that he's incapable of ever signing onto aol again...or he decides to sing a different tune for once.

Hey SONY_PCH_WHATEVER...
Count me in as another in saying the current state is unnacceptable.
Again, vegas has the competition beat as for a better UI...WHY NOT FOLLOW UP WITH IMPLEMENTING THE OBVIOUS TOOLS AND FEATURES CONTENT CREATORS CAN USE AND NEED TODAY AND AT LEAST TRY AND COMPETE ?
Why the hell is there an argument on this from any sony\sf dev....as well as
from some moronic and dillusional user like rednidiot, is beyond me.

Maybe it's time for Sony_PCH_INEFFECTUAL to step down and it's time to get some new blood in there?
Frankly I'm sick of the replies and arguments otherwise. It's dated and pointless. Just shut the hell up and implement the obvious instead of wasting time bullshitting the "why not".

jd

bullshit...more corparate, ineffectual bullshit - the positives do go said. This is 2004 - wake up and smell what you're shoveling.
They go "said" through usage, reviews, ads\marketing. You're sitting there like some goofball taking only what you hear from users on this msg board it sounds like.
Your argument of "the average vegas user" is only derivitive of what vegas offers and what it does not. It's pathetic to attempt to speculate otherwise.
In other words SONY_PCH...you're current user base (even just on this stupid msg board) have been telling you what they want. If you can't seem to find the time to accomplish it - why not hire someone there who can and will (and end all this repetitive sh*t)?
But do you really need to hear some "field of dreams" speech over and over?
Isn't this just as obvious to you as it is to those disagreeing with you?
Just f'n do it and quit being so damn assanine.

analogy: You have this vintage automobile all fixed and ready to go, but all it needs is a washing to complete a sale. Awwww, damn. Oh well...I guess it just wasn't meant to be (as you go collect your next sony paycheck).

Again (and again...and again), vegas has the competition beat as for a better UI (more would like to choose vegas over the competition)...WHY NOT FOLLOW UP WITH IMPLEMENTING THE OBVIOUS TOOLS AND FEATURES CONTENT CREATORS CAN USE AND NEED TODAY AND AT LEAST TRY AND COMPETE ?
Even more - cut the cheesy, dated, un-professional, nickel and dime approach to your applications. All that you need is right there...make vegas\acid\cda one application for christs sake.
Hell...change the product name if you want as well. Charge more...whatever.
You want to play with the big boys WHICH YOU SHOULD BE DOING...(read: the competition outselling your applications)? Then finish and market it accordingly. Vegas is close to perfect...why there is argument to follow thru with the rest is completely lazy and moronic.
Why the hell is there an argument on this from any sony\sf dev (as well as
from some moronic and dillusional user like rednidiot) is beyond me.
It's all right there - right in front of you.

Vegas is a great app already, but it can be "THE" app if you would complete it and then market it accordingly.

(apparently things have to be repeated to you over and over before any signal sinks in - a sign, maybe, it's time for you to step down or hire someone who "CAN DO"?. Frankly, I'm SICK of your same old replies SONY_PCH_INEFFECTUAL).

jd

Red Said:
Tmrpro had V5 almost 4 months before it was ever released and not once mentioned a problem with monitoring latency until it was released. I think before spouting off in a forum and condeming a program that doesn't personally work for you, you should start to except some of that blame.... I checked everything out that I use in my workflow....

I've addressed this twice for you in this thread.... but you are more apt to use your mouth instead of your reading glasses.... I won't repeat myself .... You can read through your previously mouthed (not read) replies to see my answer to this moronic statement.

Red goes on to say:
You've had plenty of opportunity to let Sony know ,what you wanted and opportunity to explain your workflow that the current method wasn't working. How come you never mentioned anything before, when there was a better chance to change things?

Not only, are you wrong more than half the time you make your comments in this forum, but your memory is crap.

Read one of the longest threads ever in this forum that you beligerantly argued with me on that started over a year ago:

Real Auto Input

Real Auto Input

Real Auto Input

Guess who followed these instructions verbatim and beat you guys to the punch? ....

Real Auto Input

Red, YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!

Wow, touchy aren't we? A simple question and you resort to name calling. I see the maturity I'm dealing with. BTW, I also never argued with you on that discussion. I gave a work around solution, and agreed with you that this may be needed by SOME users workflow.

not exactly, I had been mentioning it for years, not ASIO DM as such till this beta ( I dont think, but maybe I did ), but certainly the hardware switching some cards like soundscape were capable of doing, since the vegas 1 days

HELL NO!!! JoeD, I don't know all the details, but I am 100% sure even YOU would like Vegas a lot less if it werent for Peter

Peter's already said it's not his call. That's enough for me to know that someone higher up on the corporate ladder has chosen to point Vegas's focus toward video features, rather than audio. It's a video editing app. It's meant to compete with Adobe Premiere and the like. It's not an audio multitracker in anything more than the loosest sense of the term, most notably because Sony isn't even trying to compete with Cubase or Sonar. That's fine; it's Sony's decision, and ultimately, they decide in what markets it is worthwhile to compete.

But that means that Sony needs to also stop pretending their products are somehow competitive in that arena, because they are not. In fact, this entire "Vegas - Audio" forum is unnecessary in that regard. I do understand its secondary purpose -- by posting in here we don't interrupt the relatively more important discussion going on in the "Vegas - Video" forum.

Vegas is not competitive as a DAW. Peter says he gets this when we say it, but Sony does not appear to understand the ramifications of this: Those of us who need midi, or better low-latency multitrack recording, have to use other applications that do serve this purpose, such as Cubase, Sonar, or Samplitude, all of which are perfectly capable of mixing and editing as well. So why should we buy Vegas at all? Great UI or no, it's generally easier -- not to mention less expensive -- to just learn to mix and edit in the app we recorded in rather than fool with importing everything into Vegas. When you get right down to it, all of the functionality in Vegas is redundant for any user whose needs are not entirely met. Even Rednroll has to use more than one application, which significantly increases his software costs. Sony needs to either admit that they don't have a competitive solution for music production, or they need to develop one. There is no in-between.

Most importantly, users here need to stop treating Vegas like a DAW. It's not a DAW, Sony has said so in as many words, and it is unlikely to ever be a DAW, considering Peter's hints at who makes the decisions in this regard. We need to stop expecting Sony to come through for us, and start seriously investing our time and energy into other apps that will give us the features we really need. Only when we stop giving Sony our dollars will they take the hint.

It just seems weird that the company that came up with Acid for christ´s sake!!! , is having such problems realising what to do with Vegas.

That's just it. This is not the company that came up with ACID. The company that came up with ACID, as well as the original Vegas, was Sonic Foundry, before the stock market started dictating their actions. When Sonic Foundry announced they were switching gears to become a "Rich Media Solutions Provider," I knew the jig was up.

Sonic Foundry, as their name suggests, used to be a company that made audio recording and editing software. Sound Forge, ACID, Vegas... these were all just audio apps. But when Sonic Foundry became a public entity, they tried to gear their applications toward the creation and publication of web media, like video publishing and such. Eventually they sold their software arm off entirely to Sony.

What I find most interesting is the fact that this website is located at mediasoftware.sonypictures.com, which indicates that this software division is organized specifically underneath Sony Pictures... an entity much more interested in video than in music production. I sure wish it were Sony Music instead. Maybe that'd make a difference.

Wow, you make snide comments about how people obviously just aren't smart enough to use a program whose primary claim to fame is its ease-of-use factor, and you're calling him immature? "Hello, this is pot calling kettle... you are black."

You're a fanboy, Red, that's all. You're trying to justify the expense you've gone to by belittling the opinions of others whose needs are not served by Vegas, and whose criticisms of its failings are valid. You'll do anything to defend the decision you've made in purchasing Vegas because to admit that it is not the best solution is to admit that you are/were wrong, and you just can't have that.

And when others point out time and again that you're wrong, and go so far as to prove it by linking to threads that directly disprove your assertions, as tmrpro has done, you whine that he's being belligerent. To which I can only say, sometimes an adult has to raise his voice in order to get his point across to a selfish child.

Now, ultimately, the only defense you have given as to why using Vegas with midi beat clock, etc. in conjunction with another app is better than a single app that does it all is that you personally like the workflow. That's fine and dandy for you, but the sales numbers for Cubase and Nuendo say otherwise for most everyone else. A lot of us want to be able to mix audio and midi side-by-side. I would argue that the majority of us do, as evidenced by the number of Cubase and Sonar users out there.

So howsabout you keep your antiquated sense of workflow to yourself, and let the rest of us, who really do want something better out of Sony, offer our opinions without your childish interruptions and obvious falsehoods?

You guys can have it your way. You're all correct. I'm the reason Vegas doesn't have ASIO DM. I'm the reason Vegas doesn't have rewire support. I'm the reason Vegas doesn't have midi tracks. I'm the reason...etc. I'll be the fall guy if that makes you all feel better and need someone to vent at. I'm so glad I have such an influence on Sony's decisions as to which features get implemented and which don't, by being nothing more than a user. You're right, they only listen to one user and that's me, that's all their attention span is capable of. I hope some day I can get paid by Sony for all my executive decision making and influence I have on their products. Is there any other features you would want implemented? This week I'm assigning all the Sony developers to a specific task to start working on and I want to make sure I don't miss anything. After I've looked at the list of requested features, I'll look at the Sony resources available and decide if additional employees need to hired to accomplish everything. Right now the resources I have are very dumb, because they don't understand anything what the users want or need to be productive. I think I'm going to have to look at hiring some employees from Steinberg and Cakewalk, because those guys know everything that the users really want. Peter, you've really let me down, sorry I'll have to give you your pink slip next week. I know you've worked hard and have only followed my direction, but I expect a lot more out of you than that. I need you to step up to my recommendations and work on the things that users really want. You should have realized that only people who do music production are the only ones that buy Vegas. Steinberg is kicking our ass on music production tool sales and you keep insisting to listen to my direction. Shame on you!!! That's why I pay you the big bucks Peter. It's been a great relationship and I'm sorry to see you go, but I have no choice in the manor. I will be replacing you next week with Johann Twiddleknob from Steinberg and our sales will sky rocket, because Johann knows what users REALLY need.

Just back from the road and missed this entire thread. (thankfully, I suppose...)
But I would like to thank Caiwyn and Tmrpro for their lucid defense of my basic points in the debate: software monitoring is not good enough for the intricacies of much music, in terms of phrasing and rhythmic accuracy, and using two computers and midi clock -- which, by the way, is not a mysterious and arcane procedure; everyone knows how to do it -- is a vastly inefficient method of modern music creation, given the other choices available (and widely requested).
I hope everyone survived the shouting.