If you do a multicam editing, you should have one video track for every camera. And one audio track for the audio recorded with the camera. Additional audio tracks for audio-recorder can be, too. But 50 tracks is not, how that works.

I do not see why the wave files (from the audio recorders?) are not imported? Typically, you should be able to pull and drag them to the timeline in an audio track? Does that not work?

If you do a multicam editing, you should have one video track for every camera. And one audio track for the audio recorded with the camera. Additional audio tracks for audio-recorder can be, too. But 50 tracks is not, how that works.

I do not see why the wave files (from the audio recorders?) are not imported? Typically, you should be able to pull and drag them to the timeline in an audio track? Does that not work?

In the past when I set up a multicamera edit, I drag each camera/audio device to its own track - but have had to use a horrible workaround using a cracked VP13 so I could use Pluraleyes 3.5 for syncing. This is getting more and more difficult to use every time I try to install it and obviously not safe/smart. Then I save in VP13, open in VP21 and everything is synced up. Add the video tracks to a multicam track, and Voilla! I need to catch up with the times and not keep risking my data with some obscure virus that might unleash itself in 2025, or 2032, or tomorrow.

I tried adding each media device to its own track in this video here, but I have no idea how to spread it out on the timeline to match timecode from here.

If I select tracks in the project media tab and select "Lay Out Tracks Using Media Timecode" I end up with 50 tracks as shown here:

 

I am by no means an expert on this, still struggling in fact. Did you use File, import, broadcast wave format to get your wav files into the timeline? I too found that each video clip was placed on a new track, but the wav files (in my case only one audio recorder) were all kept on one track. (it might be an idea for you to try with just one audio recorder before you try all 3). I then tried , clicking on the beginning of the audio track, selecting all events after cursor on just that track and manually lining up the first clip to video. Unfortunately subsequent clips were not perfectly aligned, each off by about 1 frame (fairly short clips). I think however this was because I was shooting/recording at 23.976 fps, (when I tried syncing in RedCine-X the program recognized it needed to apply a conversion factor). I think if my audio and video had both been 24 fps it might have worked, I do plan to test this at a later date. I also got some helpful advice from another user re scripting, I also plan to test that. (here is that thread: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/timecode-sync-attempt-error-message--145178/ )

I tried your method of importing broadcast WAV from the menu. This did seem to actually detect the wav file timecode correctly, but I have the same issue where each clip is getting it's own track. I was a little confused at first when the bride lav import had 2 small random clips that were placed under another track from the same device, but then I realize this was user error on my Tascam DR 10L pro. You CAN just turn the Lav on by hitting record, but I learned that this will not sync with timecode. You need to let the lav turn on in standby mode and wait for it to connect.

Now with the Video and Wav files I am up to 77 tracks.....

OH and my Zoom F3 seems to be about 4 whole seconds ahead of all the other devices. But otherwise is fine if I manually move all the files together and line it up. That seems like a huge offset needed if I can figure out how to do it.

By contrast this is how clean everything looks in Davinci Resolve Studio - HOWEVER I do not know how to use this software. I have owned it for a year and have used it for some audio cleanup is about all I know. Well I guess I know how to import timecode files now too....



My issue there is that it makes Video tracks to correspond with the audio only tracks, and I cannot figure out how to delete the video tracks without the audio tracks also deleting. But that is not for here, and an issue I would figure out another day in another place. But besides that it all imported cleanly with a click of a button.

The Zoom F3 is still off by about 4 seconds there as well, so now I just have to figure out why so much.

Doesn't sound like the problem is loading the wav files onto a Vegas timeline. It's auto-syncing audio flash recorder wav clips loaded onto the timeline to the clips from cameras already synced on the timeline.

@hambonio Fwiw, I only use a single multitrack audio recorder, rather than multiple devices. That way all the audio tracks are physically locked into sync with each other when I bring them into Vegas and group them. But I've never figured out how to read the timecode from the audio group to auto-align with the video group which may or may not have more audio tracks. I always do it by eye working with one of the camera audio tracks. But there must be a better way. I tried to do it once with my Sound Devices flash recorders but the WAV time-code fields and buttons in Vegas clip properties were always uninitialized and greyed out. Perhaps if you create a dummy/empty video event, add Timecode-FX to it, manually enter the starting timecode to the empty video event, then add it to the externally-recorded audio group. I think I posted something once about using the video-timecode FX.

Doesn't sound like the problem is loading the wav files onto a Vegas timeline. It's auto-syncing audio flash recorder wav clips loaded onto the timeline to the clips from cameras already synced on the timeline.

@hambonio Fwiw, I only use a single multitrack audio recorder, rather than multiple devices. That way all the audio tracks are physically locked into sync with each other when I bring them into Vegas and group them. But I've never figured out how to read the timecode from the audio group to auto-align with the video group which may or may not have more audio tracks. I always do it by eye working with one of the camera audio tracks. But there must be a better way. I tried to do it once with my Sound Devices flash recorders but the WAV time-code fields and buttons in Vegas clip properties were always uninitialized and greyed out. Perhaps if you create a dummy/empty video event, add Timecode-FX to it, manually enter the starting timecode to the empty video event, then add it to the externally-recorded audio group. I think I posted something once about using the video-timecode FX.

The audio files are recorded with timecode so should still work.

I cannot use just a single mixer. I have to have separate non transmitting audio devices. My lavaliers record straight to the pack. After a wedding I did in 2015 where the DJs system kept cutting out during the ceremony he blatantly and sternly blamed me for his problems in front of the clients. Even though I KNOW my equipment had nothing to do with it, I decided it was time to go completely transmission free to prove any future doubters (Although you could consider the bluetooth timecode a transmission). Another DJ this past fall had the same issue and blamed my gear and I showed him all of my recorders were stand alone non RF recorders.

Besides the 3 that I can connect to my TC system, I use up to 4 more standalone devices depending on the situation - so those will have to be manually synced. But having a 7 track head start and knowing the other devices will be short files and situational they should not be too difficult to manually line up if needed.

Here's the older post I recalled... there's also a script by @jetdv that will force-fill the starting timecode into a wav clip on the Vegas timeline so long as you know what the timecode is supposed to be and set the file timestamps to match:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/managing-frame-number-view-on-video-clips--143907/#ca901273

@wjauch
Well I lied. Yes this imported the WAV files and those themselves seem to import as per timecode (even though my F3 is still 4 seconds, 5 frames off it is consistent). But I see what you are saying. They do not line up with the video tracks which are synced between themselves. Its as though they are independent timecode start to the video tracks.

I remember browsing through the thread you mentioned but that got me lost as well!

Mid post update... now that I look everything over all my cameras are not aligned to each other anymore, likely because I added them one camera at a time. They are spaced out properly, but that is it. I am guessing this has to do with being able to import everything you need at the same time so they align with each other.

So, does anyone know how I can export that simple timeline from Resolve Studio so I can open it in VP? I have heard of EDL and XML files but do not see that function easily available there.
 

Hambonio, have you tried the scripts I posted in this thread to get the BWF TC into Vegas?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/timecode-sync-attempt-error-message--145178/

If the TC is properly embeded in the BWF files BEXT chunk it should work perfectly. I have tried Sounddevices MixPre 10, Zoom F6 and Tascam DR680 and they all do work.

Nils

Right now I am at a place where I can actually get all my BWF files to import correctly.  It is matching with all of the rest of the footage that is proving to be a bit of a time consuming challenge. 

@jetdv I watched through your video in a hurry on my way out the door yesterday and it did make my head spin at first glance, but I can try to watch it step by step again later.

@NoKi I am also away today but will look through your thread. NOTE: After typing below, I looked at the thread and I have already browsed through that thread previously and will have to look closer attention to the scripting stuff as I need to comprehend better.

Currently I have a process that seems to work. I am making a video tutorial at least for my own information.  I just want to make sure that I can reproduce the results every time.

It seems that this ORDER IS VERY IMPORTANT.  Anything out of step here (and I am going to run this a bunch of times today) will not end in great results.

FIRST – The time format in the project needs to match your files.  Seems like a no brainer but I have seen that time format randomly open in different formats over different projects.  Sometimes it even seems to change mid project.  In my current case SMPTE Film Sync IVTC (23.976fps, Video)

SECOND – YOU MUST import your BWF files FIRST, one device at a time using the settings “Across time” and “Use Ruler Time”.  This seems to place each of the BWF devices on their own track and are laid down exactly where their frames start. NOTE: Why must this be used as an import function and not something easily you can do from the media tab?

THIRD ALL camera angles must be imported at the SAME time (not like the BWF one at a time).  Do this from the project media tab. This way now all of your camera angles are all synced.  For some reason you cannot get them to load one track per device so you will get multiple tracks for each camera.  In my test yesterday this left a mess of 50 tracks to deal with. NOTE: In contrast to the BWF import, the only way to do this is from the Media tab. Completely unintuitive.

FOURTH step (kind of optional and a bit chaotic and time consuming but highly recommended – especially if you are doing a multi angle edit) is to condense every camera file into their own track by CAREFULLY moving every clip to different tracks in the timeline making sure the orange line appears ensuring that the clip moved to a new track absolutely does not move time position. 

FIFTH step – now that the video tracks are condensed, and since I see no way to lay the video files down matching their actual timecode start (only relative to each other), I find the track with the first (left most) clip.  I right click on the clip, then hit properties and go to the media tab.  Under Timecode it will list the time it starts.  Take note of that time. Here it is 01:15:44:00

SIXTH step – Find the time where the first clip starts in the timeline and place a marker there. 

SEVENTH Step – Carefully select ALL Video angles/clips and move them so that the first clip lines up with your marker.

EIGHT step – With all this moving around of files, now hopefully everything should be synced with each other. The camera group now matches the audio groups below. 

NOW – I really hope this process can be streamlined in the future, especially since plugins like Pluraleyes are on their way out, and timecode equipment is becoming much more accessible. I am stuck with Pluraleyez 3.5, which only works on VP13, and is a headache of a workaround and does not play very nicely with the more modern 10-bit 422 clips. I tried the Vegas syncing by audio and all my clips were recorded in the same fairly quiet room with obvious sharp sounds and Vegas could not sync a single file after over 20 minutes of processing.

As stated previously, I have ZERO experience editing in Davinci Resolve studio, but over there all I had to do for each device was assign them an angle (Took less than 30 seconds to mark my 7 angles).  Then with maybe 2 clicks I was able to import every file at the same time and they all matched up beautifully in the timeline.  No other steps needed. 

 

Using scripts, timecode can be used in an easy way even in Vegas too. I work a lot with timecode and this is my workflow:

1. Drag all media files (audio and video) into the project media pool. For me, usually none of the files show a proper "Timecode In" value after import

2. Set the project and timeline framerate to match the videos timecode (in my case SMTE EBU 25 fps). AFAIR, changing these settings after adding manual "Timecode In" values to the media didn't work so well, as the frame numbers are not recalculated properly in all cases.

3. You may not need this:
Select all video media and run my scripts for reading the file TC or the LTC from the videos audio track
-> now the video file have the correct "Timecode In" values

4. Select all audio media (BWF WAVs) and run my script (see the other thread) for reading the TC from the BWF BEXT chunk (time reference: samples since midnight)
-> now the audio files also have the correct "Timecode In" values, but in the format HH:MM:SS;milliseconds.

5. Drag the video and audio media to the timeline tracks you like (e.g. one track for each camera) to generate the timeline events. It doesn't matter at which timeline position or in which order they are

6. Run the script (see the other thread) to move all media events to their timecode position. In case you accidentally moved an event and therefore lost sync, just run the script again and everything is perfectly aligned again.

Hope it helps,
Nils

I should also add that I usually don't use the audio recorders raw multichannel files in Vegas. I import these to Reaper first to get an optimized 2.0 or 5.1 mixdown, that is used in Vegas then. Reaper is able to keep all timecode information, so it is easy to stay in sync with video in Vegas afterwards.

Nils

@NoKi

I tried running all your scripts from that post and ran into issues. However I think the 2nd script is all I might need and will keep it simpler.

Here is what happened when I used your big script - A couple of the Zoom F3 files landed no where near where they should be. One in completely the wrong place, and another one shifted by quite a bit fading into another track.

I just spent a few moments and moved them to where they needed to be.

Next I started a new project from scratch. I used the import BWF function for each device, and worked like I expected. Then I loaded my camera clips into their own tracks. I even placed them in reverse order by mistake, but thought I would try anyway. All I did was select all of the video tracks, then ran that 2nd smaller script on them and they all went into position!

Here is my result from that method, and I have the Project Media tab in view so you can see I did not run the first script at all.

So THANK YOU for pointing me to the scripts that 2nd one will save a ton of headache with the video files.

NOW I do have a problem I see arising from my Zoom F3. Probably user error, and something I need to fix. That recorder is constantly being fed a timecode signal, and when I look at the screen the timecode matches up 100%.

When recording I would say it is drift but it is not drift as the issue gets worse down the timeline even if it is stopped and restarted again starting a new file. Maybe there is timing setting that are not correct in the device?
My first clap test at about 9:35 in the TC, my Zoom F3 is already 12 frames off. Actually that whole first file is 12 frames off. But each file after that gets progressively worse. The 2nd file is 2 full seconds ahead. By the time I get to the last file at 1 hour and 45 minutes in is a full 06:08 ahead of the other devices.

I noticed this the other day while testing as well that the F3 just was not lining up 100%. The cameras are all still within a frame of each other at this point and they were only jammed, and the TC device disconnected. The lavaliers are 100% dead on as they are 100% connected to the TC generator. This might explain why the Zoom F3 files went a little wonky using the first script you provided. Any idea what might be causing this much shift?

Mmh, have to look into this, but regarding your drift: Are you sure the TC settings on all devices match? Sounds like a drop-frame to no-drop-frame mismatch, which is 18 frames per 10 min, AFAIR.

Nils

Mmh, have to look into this, but regarding your drift: Are you sure the TC settings on all devices match? Sounds like a drop-frame to no-drop-frame mismatch, which is 18 frames per 10 min, AFAIR.

Nils

I am not sure what is going on. I cannot find anything in the F3 menu about DF or NDF. I know the rest of the devices are set to NDF.

I did let the 2 lavaliers, and Zoom F3 run while I was out of the house today. So long as the recording was not interrupted, everything was still matching after 5.5 hours, even while the F3 was automatically splitting up the clips due to the file size. So really there is not any audio drift.

The issue is when I started it back up about 15 minutes later (I turned it off on purpose) The audio was placed 20 seconds and 18 frames EARLIER than the lavalier clips. I restarted one Lavalier and when I started it back up it was still in sync.

Details are scarce on anyone actually using the BT timecode on the F3, mostly just mentions that it is capable - but you need the BT hardware which I just purchased for it. I will probably be contacting BH about this. I feel like I am a guinea pig.

In the end this will still work great for my needs and finally feel free of Pluraleyes, I just wish there was not so much manual tweaking still to do...

I never used BT timecode on my F6, so I can't comment on that. Though, what still puzzles me is that the timecode of some BWF files is interpreted differently when using the Vegas import function or the script. Never saw this before with my files.

The script should always work as it only reads the tag "TimeReference" (number of samples since absolute TC zero) and the sample rate via ExifTool and calculates "TimeReference"/"sample rate" to get a relative time in seconds. This time is given to Vegas as a new "Timecode In" value for this file.

Can you provide one of those files to analyse what might go wrong with reading the TC?

Nils

I never used BT timecode on my F6, so I can't comment on that. Though, what still puzzles me is that the timecode of some BWF files is interpreted differently when using the Vegas import function or the script. Never saw this before with my files.

The script should always work as it only reads the tag "TimeReference" (number of samples since absolute TC zero) and the sample rate via ExifTool and calculates "TimeReference"/"sample rate" to get a relative time in seconds. This time is given to Vegas as a new "Timecode In" value for this file.

Can you provide one of those files to analyse what might go wrong with reading the TC?

Nils

I can set up a new set of files today using the Lavs and the F3 and turn them on and off at different intervals. I would send one of the previous ones but there were people other than me here talking in the background and just don't know what was being said. This will just be me and a bird! I will let it go a couple of hours.

@NoKi

Here is all of the raw footage used in the videos below:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lzxxbf22qxawc7f/TC%20Files%20for%20VP%20Forum.zip?dl=1

Video #1:

I dragged all the footage into the Project Media Tab.

I used your script on all of the WAV files.

I added each device to it's own track.

I ran the 2nd script and everything spread out on the timeline, but there were errors.  

First you will see that Mono5191.mp4 is out of place.  I looked up the timecode and moved it into the correct position.

For the WAV files I noticed F3_BOARD_024_Tr1.WAV was out of position and actually placed starting before F3_BOARD_023_Tr1.WAV (Other than the F3 "drifting" issues aside, the F3_BOARD_023_Tr1.WAV was mostly in the correct spot)

After watching the screen record, F3_BOARD_027_Tr1.WAV was also out of position and covering up a part of F3_BOARD_025_Tr1.WAV at about 01:43:37:23 -  so 2 of those WAV files did not sync correctly.  

Video #2:

I imported the WAV files via the VP menu and they seemed to have all laid across the tracks correctly (F3 issues aside). 

I used your 2nd script to place the MP4 Files.  This time the file Mono5190.mp4 was out of place (last time it was Mono5191.mp4).  Weird.....

Anyhow for the WAVs my best luck is using the import from the menu.  Now I am not sure what is randomly going on with the MP4 files, especially since the timecode can easily be looked up in the media properties.

Also in both methods, the very last short groom lav clip seems to be about 1.5ish frames off, but probably within margin of error and how it was actually recorded. I am sure there will be tight manual adjusting of any tracks anyway for anything I produce, and this is close enough to easily spot. 20+ seconds on the other hand is ridiculous.

Video #3

I ran your script on the MP4 files just to see if it adjusted anything, then imported them with the 2nd script on a track above the last import.  Once again it cannot decide the 100% proper order/placement of the MP4 files....

FWIW

Davinci imports the F3 files in the same way. Every progressive file gets an earlier and earlier placement. So definitely a problem or missed setting in the F3 I need to pin down for that issue.

@hambonio

Thanks, I got the files.

I first looked at the F3 files and found something strange: the TimeReference value is always a multiple of 192000 (the sample rate), so the TC start time is always a full second, no frames. Not the case with the Tascam files.

E.g., "F3_BOARD_018_Tr1.WAV" has "Time Reference: 11136000" which gives a start TC of "00.00.58:00" at 192 kHz sampling rate.
Using the BWF import function it also shows "00.00.58,00" in most cases, except when the timeline format is set to anything with 29.97 fps (either DF or NDF). Then the timestamp switches to "00.00.57:28", strange, as DF should match realtime. (but, only had VP18 at hand).
 

Btw, do you really need such a high sampling rate on the F3? Might be worth a try to also set it to 48 kHz, like the Tascams.

I will do some more test, when I find the time..

Nils

@hambonio

Thanks, I got the files.

I first looked at the F3 files and found something strange: the TimeReference value is always a multiple of 192000 (the sample rate), so the TC start time is always a full second, no frames. Not the case with the Tascam files.

E.g., "F3_BOARD_018_Tr1.WAV" has "Time Reference: 11136000" which gives a start TC of "00.00.58:00" at 192 kHz sampling rate.
Using the BWF import function it also shows "00.00.58,00" in most cases, except when the timeline format is set to anything with 29.97 fps (either DF or NDF). Then the timestamp switches to "00.00.57:28", strange, as DF should match realtime. (but, only had VP18 at hand).
 

Btw, do you really need such a high sampling rate on the F3? Might be worth a try to also set it to 48 kHz, like the Tascams.

I will do some more test, when I find the time..

Nils

 

I definitely do not need that sampling rate. When I purchased it last year I just set it to the max on all settings. I suppose I can cut it back a notch and see if that helps. Will be doing a new test the remainder of the day! To me that seems weird that that would be tied to the sample rate...... Thanks, will update later!

@NoKi

The 48khz test was a bust.... I am at a loss.

When I run your script on the files, it correctly lists the time that it should have been, but when laid in the track either with import BWF or with the script organizing it, they are importing earlier than they are reporting. And the reported listing of each file is rounded to the nearest second, but it is not even within the nearest second after being laid on the track. That last clip is reporting to be 02:02:41:000 but was actually placed at 02:02:33:15 almost 7.5 seconds earlier than it should have been. I marked all actual placement times at the markers.