V19 BRAW results - anyone getting 4K playback 24fps even at draft?

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 3:09 PM

I realize it's beta, but there is not much in help or docs to clarify what state it is in. I just shot a microbudget feature with Pocket 4K with anamorphic lenses. I can load BRAW files no problem. And I even see a slim collection of LUTs in color grade.

But on my system i7-7820x with 122GB RAM and 2080Ti,

  • in 8-bit mode (GPU on) I get 18 to 20 fps in everything from Best/Full to Draft/Quarter which tells me something is hard limiting it. However, 8-bit defeats the purpose of shooting 14-bit raw...
  • In 32-bit mode (GPU on) i get 4fps in Preview/Auto, 6fps in Draft/Auto at 8fps in Draft/Quarter, not usable at all (but stills look good!)

Premiere Pro get's full rez, 4K playback with high color depth and quality on, drops a frame now and then but 24fps seems pretty solid for one track, so not bad.

Resolve 17 of course plays back, even with fade/dissolve and LUTs with no problem so will continue to use that for editing this feature.

I'm wondering if RTX 3080 Ti will hit 24fps.

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 3:14 PM

32 bit mode is always more taxing. So, do your workflow like this. Make all your cuts in 8 bit mode, and then when you go to color it, switch it to 32 bit mode. A smooth framerate isn't as necessary to color grade, but is for editing so you can get your timing right. Doing it this way helps to negate the added system tax of using 32 bit mode, and retains your ability to take full advantage of your high bit depth video when coloring.

Or, a slower method, make proxies, then use good or best quality preview modes when coloring so it references the original media (draft and preview use proxies when proxies are available). Do this if you cannot get a usable framerate even in an 8 bit project.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/18/2021, 3:17 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 3:28 PM

32 bit mode is always more taxing. So, do your workflow like this. Make all your cuts in 8 bit mode, and then when you go to color it, switch it to 32 bit mode.

I've been using Vegas since 2000, so I've been doing this for many years but BRAW is 14-bit. The entire point is that you can change ISO/white balance/color temp etc. and this can have a huge effect on deciding which takes you want and don't want during the cutting process. I've doing the cut so far in Resolve and will continue to do so but I prefer the Vegas UI but until BRAW is fully support and new audio engine with 32-bit support and 64-bit VST engine support, I will have to do my feature film editing elsewhere.

Resolve has this workflow built in and can play back realtime full rez 4K at full color depth. So can Premiere. Vegas BRAW cannot (yet). Sure you could do it that way but you might at well shoot ProRes instead if you are not going to fully use BRAW.

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:01 PM

Any time you need to see what a shot looks like in 32 bit mode, it's just a matter of turning it on or off in project settings. Do your shot selection in 32 bit, figure out which ones you want to keep and cut, then when actually editing it all together on the timeline, run it in 8 bit.

I'd love to see 32 bit mode work at a faster framerate as well, but until it does, it isn't that difficult to work around.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:09 PM

Any time you need to see what a shot looks like in 32 bit mode, it's just a matter of turning it on or off in project settings. Do your shot selection in 32 bit, figure out which ones you want to keep and cut, then when actually editing it all together on the timeline, run it in 8 bit.

I'd love to see 32 bit mode work at a faster framerate as well, but until it does, it isn't that difficult to work around.

Well it obviously depends on your definition of difficult. I don't think you get the issue here at all. I've used 32-bit mode in Vegas for many years but shooting raw is completely different situation that taking advantage of bit depths for color correction. Right now, Vegas has zero facility to play back clips at full speed unless you made proxies (I shot 20TB for my feature, not going to happen). You can look at your 14-bit raw files either look at 8-bit playback at around 20fps or 4fps to see what you shot. If you do even basic editing (some dissolves, LUTS), it's dropping even slower so it's not usable at this point IMO.

And you can't actually access (from what I can find) the actual raw features - changing ISO/white balance/color temp etc. I assume that will come later in the beta process as again, that is the primary advantage to shooting raw.

But right now I'm trying to determine what card(s) are fastest and if any shipping card get 24fps playback of 4K (or great) BRAW files as this feature is in beta.

Marco. wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:33 PM

"And you can't actually access (from what I can find) the actual raw features - changing ISO/white balance/color temp etc."

Sure you can:

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:35 PM

"And you can't actually access (from what I can find) the actual raw features - changing ISO/white balance/color temp etc."

Sure you can:

Not coming up here, maybe a bug?

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:44 PM

"And you can't actually access (from what I can find) the actual raw features - changing ISO/white balance/color temp etc."

Sure you can:

Nevermind, my bad it's working now after a restart of the app, I think the window was getting lost behind on my dual monitor setup. Changing the setting does drop the frame rate another bit too even in 8-bit. I'm still curious who can get 24fps playback on what system.

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:47 PM

Also keep in mind this support is still in beta form, and there are further performance improvements planned for VEGAS as well.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/18/2021, 4:49 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:52 PM

I guess you just looked at the wrong place. It's where the RED Raw settings are available, too - the clip's context menu via the Project Media window: "File Format Properties".

I found it, but nothing happened until I restarted. It's a problem I've had with Vegas for many years with certain windows not coming up on my dual monitor setups especially after an update.

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 4:54 PM

Also keep in mind this support is still in beta form, and there are further performance improvements planned for VEGAS as well.


i realize you are trying to be helpful but that is literally the first words of my initial post above lol. again, the thread title is about who is getting 24fps playback - that's my primary question at this point.

Marco. wrote on 8/18/2021, 5:26 PM

"the thread title is about who is getting 24fps playback"

It's on my Acer Swift 3x after one playback buffer cycle. On the first go it's 16-18 fps (for 6k source clips).

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 6:44 PM

I get about 12fps on that same clip, draft quarter quality on my zenbook pro duo 32gb rtx 2060 i9 9980hk setup.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

RogerS wrote on 8/18/2021, 8:50 PM

I did tests of 6K and it's fine with a proxy workflow on my laptop. Switch to best full for grading.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 9:06 PM

That is the best way to go about it, proxy in 32 bit when editing, flip the preview quality to best when you need to color and play with the raw metadata settings.

eikira wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:11 PM

I dont have a BRAW cam, so its nothing for me, but out of curiosity i tested it with 4K footage (THIS)

And normaly i dont work with with proxy. So what am i doing wrong:
BRAW_4K_Unchanged

BRAW_4K_BrightnessContrast

BRAW-proxy_4K_Unchanged

BRAW-proxy_4K_BrightnessContrast

My first assumtion was, that the effects got embeded into the proxy, because i changed contrast and brigthness and some very minor tweaks in the colorwheels, BEFOR creating the proxy. But then BRAW-proxy_4K_Unchanged should match BRAW_4K_BrightnessContrast if i turn of the effects in the preview, but as we can see in the screenshot it does not match. So either the proxy of BRAW footage cant be very accurate or its just that the BRAW decoding is very beta. At least this would be absolute unusable for editing. Or maybe its just that the proxy HAS to be created before ANYTHING is added in terms of effects?

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:38 PM

Did some BRAW testing without proxies using the Rock Band multicam footage downloaded from the BMD web page. It's a pretty big zip. Didn't do any editing other than doing multicam cuts and seeing if I could play it smoothly. While I was at it I did a capture of it then added narration with the new text to voice thingy. I'll probably never evade Blade Runner or captcha with my new voice, but it's probably an improvement. Just uploaded my little demo run:

stephenv2 wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:54 PM

Did some BRAW testing without proxies using the Rock Band multicam footage downloaded from the BMD web page. It's a pretty big zip. Didn't do any editing other than doing multicam cuts and seeing if I could play it smoothly. While I was at it I did a capture of it then added narration with the new text to voice thingy. I'll probably never evade Blade Runner or captcha with my new voice, but it's probably an improvement. Just uploaded my little demo run:

What CPU and GPU?

Steve_Rhoden wrote on 8/18/2021, 11:02 PM

Lol, not bad Howard-Vigorita, ..... I tell you this, i am kinda pleased with this text to speech new feature, because i've tried plenty over the years, and that sounded better than most.... With some additional precise audio editing tweaks, i can get exceptional and believable voice over results from this thing.

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 11:55 PM

Did some BRAW testing without proxies using the Rock Band multicam footage downloaded from the BMD web page. It's a pretty big zip. Didn't do any editing other than doing multicam cuts and seeing if I could play it smoothly. While I was at it I did a capture of it then added narration with the new text to voice thingy. I'll probably never evade Blade Runner or captcha with my new voice, but it's probably an improvement. Just uploaded my little demo run:

What CPU and GPU?

I assume this one in his sig?

Workstation: i9 9900k 32 gb (Sapphire AMD Radeon VII 16gb graphics & integrated Intel UHD630)
 

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:01 AM

What CPU and GPU?

Was my first test project with a newly built machine with an 11900k cpu I just finished today. The gpu is a Vega64 that I pulled from my oldest setup. I also ran it on the 9900k machine. It's kind of odd because I don't see very high cpu utilization on either machine (about 25%) or any gpu encode or decode. But a lot of gpu copy. Up around 60% on the Vega64. Odd part is I only get about 15 fps on a 9900k machine, similarly low cpu utilization, and about 55% copy utilization on it's Radeon VII which is a faster gpu with 2x the memory.

RogerS wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:01 AM

With Braw it appears that the proxy is not updated in any way based on changes to the raw. The proxy is useful for getting real-time playback but not for judging color or exposure. Here Vegas created the proxy on import and then I loaded up the raw controls. The raw editing itself was quite pleasant and I'm happy with the results.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:18 AM

The proxy is useful for getting real-time playback but not for judging color or exposure.

Which is missing the point of its existence, does it not?

RogerS wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:25 AM

No, a proxy makes files that are unable to playback in realtime playable for editing (cutting). I never judge files for color correction using the proxies and always check my work with best/full on a full-screen second display.

The lack of a link between the color space and look of the raw file and proxy files is a problem, but as this is a beta I expect they will do something to address it. Now you can at least work with BM Raw without resorting to external software.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:31 AM

I think it was mentioned somewhere that even if proxies are enabled, they get bypassed if you switch preview up to Good or Best. Try doing that when grading and droping down to preview or draft for play-throughs.