Vegas 19 and ProRes Raw

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/22/2021, 1:27 PM

ProRes Raw might not be done yet or officially announced... but it's in there and usable.


Comments

eikira wrote on 8/22/2021, 3:51 PM

You sure its PRRAW? I dont have a prores raw creating cam or recorder, so i downloaded some samples from the net, and VP19 has no interest in importing them at all.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/22/2021, 4:31 PM

Absolutely sure. It's from my Atomos Ninja V display/recorder which gets raw over hdmi from the zcam E2. The Metadata is shown in the video but here's a reprint:

General
Complete name                            : D:\temp\prr\rabbits_T024.MOV
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   2005.03 (qt  )
File size                                : 5.91 GiB
Duration                                 : 32 s 432 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 1 566 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-07-13 19:06:30
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-07-13 19:06:30
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime
com.apple.proapps.manufacturer           : Z CAM
com.atomos.hdr.monitormode               : Rec709
com.apple.proapps.modelname              : E2
org.smpte.rdd18.lens.irisfnumber         : F3.5
com.apple.proapps.exif.{Exif}.FocalLenIn : Unknown kind of value!
org.smpte.rdd18.lens.lenszoom35mmstillca : 256.0mm
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.shutterspeed_angl : 98.2deg
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.whitebalance      : 4200K
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.isosensitivity    : 5000
com.apple.proresraw.whitebalance.bycct.w : (Binary)
com.apple.proresraw.whitebalance.bycct.c : (Binary)
com.apple.proapps.exif.{ExifAux}.LensMod : .64x EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS I
org.smpte.rdd18.lens.lensattributes      : .64x EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS I
com.atomos.raw.intermediate_oetf         : VLog
com.atomos.raw.intermediate_gamut        : VGamut
com.apple.proapps.image.{TIFF}.Make      : Atomos
com.apple.proapps.image.{TIFF}.Model     : NinjaV
com.apple.proapps.image.{TIFF}.Software  : 10.65

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : RAW HQ
Codec ID                                 : aprh
Duration                                 : 32 s 432 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 564 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : A
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 6.290
Stream size                              : 5.90 GiB (100%)
Writing library                          : atm0
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-07-13 19:06:30
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-07-13 19:06:30

 

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon xf605 & xf305, JVC gv-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (uhd-630 {100.9664} & gtx1050ti {516.94}) Win11
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (igpu AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & igpu Intel hd630 {100.9415}) Win11
Workstation: LC i9-11900k 64gb (LC 6900xt 16 gb {22.5.1}, 1660ti 6 gb {516.94} & uhd750 {101.3222} ) Win11
Workstation: i9-9900k 32 gb (Radeon VII 16gb {22.5.1} & uhd630 {101.2111}) Win10

Workstation2: Xeon-1650v4 128 gb (5700xt 8gb {22.5.1} & gtx1660 6gb {516.94}) Win10
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3}) Win10
currently active Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19.643.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm
LutP utility to create OpenFX xml preset files for the Vegas LUT fx in Vegas 17, 18, & 19.

 

eikira wrote on 8/22/2021, 4:36 PM

interesting. VP19 wont load it in here. downloaded a sample from https://filmplusgear.com/atomos-adds-prores-raw-to-ninja-v-5-recorder/

maybe i forget to set something on in the settings for ProRes RAW...

fr0sty wrote on 8/22/2021, 5:51 PM

It's still in beta form, so some clips may not load correctly. Same applies to BlackMagic RAW. They're hoping to have that sorted in the near future. So far, the ones I've tried do work. I did have a bug with BM RAW clips that required me to re-install VEGAS 19 to get the import working right.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/22/2021, 5:52 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 8/22/2021, 6:39 PM

Just downloaded both of the fx6 ProRes Raw clips linked by @eikira and they drag and drop onto the v19 timeline just fine. But I didn't see the summary show up which usually tells me a clip is recognized by Vegas when I point to it. Just realized Vegas 19 had that off by default for a new install. So I turned summary on in the Vegas explorer and all is well.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon xf605 & xf305, JVC gv-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (uhd-630 {100.9664} & gtx1050ti {516.94}) Win11
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (igpu AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & igpu Intel hd630 {100.9415}) Win11
Workstation: LC i9-11900k 64gb (LC 6900xt 16 gb {22.5.1}, 1660ti 6 gb {516.94} & uhd750 {101.3222} ) Win11
Workstation: i9-9900k 32 gb (Radeon VII 16gb {22.5.1} & uhd630 {101.2111}) Win10

Workstation2: Xeon-1650v4 128 gb (5700xt 8gb {22.5.1} & gtx1660 6gb {516.94}) Win10
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3}) Win10
currently active Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19.643.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm
LutP utility to create OpenFX xml preset files for the Vegas LUT fx in Vegas 17, 18, & 19.

 

cliff_622 wrote on 8/22/2021, 8:44 PM

Sony sensors dump out linear raw. So unless it's gamma "curved" to a raw file, it would look REALLY bad if it's viewed in it's linear native form. So, most raw viewers will have gamma conform tools to "bend" that linear raw into VLog, CLog or Slog or any other log gamma....then you actually start color grading it. (Premiere gives you this function for all raw files) I suspect that is what the Vegas is working on today. They have it for BRaw right now but nothing for ProResRAW yet. Until then, we are stuck trying to bend and shape linear raw without a log gamma transform applied to it.

Hopefully, it wont be long. Anybody know? 1 month? 2 months or 6 months?

I would much rather see a flawed "beta" ProResRAW interface then be forced to wait a long time for a perfect ProResRAW implementation.

RogerS wrote on 8/22/2021, 9:33 PM

I can also download the filmplusgear files and put them on the timeline (takes a few minutes to load initially). I don't see any place for raw controls (ISO, WB, noise reduction, etc.) so at the moment it's not really using the full potential of the files.

fr0sty wrote on 8/22/2021, 10:48 PM

The raw controls for prores RAW are hopefully coming in the next update, which shouldn't be too far off. That's part of why it released in beta form.

cliff_622 wrote on 8/22/2021, 11:16 PM

Another interesting thing that I have noticed on the 19 trail is that ProResRAW is decoding on even intel graphics. I have a laptop that does not have Nvidia or AMD and it's STILL opening OK! I found this shocking as I cannot get Premiere to open ProResRAW on my AMD RX6800 card. I had to throw in an old Nvidia Quadro P6000 to get ProResRAW decode. Vegas 19 is literally doing it on my cheap intel graphics work laptop!!! I was completely surprised by that. So, I'm hoping for good things with the next update? It seems to be off to a good start on the CPU/GPU decoding side with ProResRAW.

On a different note. I'm noticing proxy files are back to XDCAM 720p MPEG-II? Woah,...that is awesome! For me, those proxy files in MPEG-2 are screaming fast and way better than the previous h.264 proxies. MPEG-2 is computationally such a "light & fast" CODEC that encoding and playback is like butter....thanks for fixing that.

RogerS wrote on 8/22/2021, 11:19 PM

Vegas proxies have been XDCAM for a long time, with only a brief detour to h.264 for the first builds of VP 18.

VEGASPascal wrote on 8/23/2021, 1:53 AM

Prores RAW is not official released. Some parts are missing and the final check that the codec works correctly within VEGAS is required.

jomomultimedia wrote on 6/30/2022, 12:59 PM

Any updates on this topic? One of the main reasons I upgraded to 19 was the belief that ProRes RAW support would be a thing. I have a NinjaV+ full of ProRes files that I can't do anything with ;(

Not to sound negative, but as I now see ads to buy the upcoming Vegas 20 (which also doesn't list ProRes RAW support in its features), and after almost a year of relative silence (looking on this forum and continuous, frequent googling/reading Reddit etc.) on this topic, I'm feeling like I made a mistake jumping in on Vegas 19.

Yes I know the official feature list for 19 never truly specified PR RAW support. But there were plenty of posts, rumors, videos on YT, and tidbits elsewhere (including this very thread claiming that it works, which it won't for me despite so many tries) that led me and others to believe it was going to happen. I can't be the only one sitting here with a modern camera and Ninja wondering about this, and I really don't want to have to look back to Adobe or another software maker to get the ability to use PR RAW files.

VEGASDerek wrote on 6/30/2022, 4:05 PM

ProRes RAW support is something we are actively working on. We have gone through several iterations with Apple as we work to achieve the certification, but we have not worked out all of the problems with the implementation quite yet.

jomomultimedia wrote on 7/1/2022, 12:11 AM

Thank you for the update! Is it reasonable to expect that once the remaining issues are resolved, it will be implemented in Vegas Pro 19, or is it more likely to be pushed to 20 (or later)?

fr0sty wrote on 7/1/2022, 12:13 AM

We must remember that it was never officially promised to be a feature for VEGAS 19.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 7/1/2022, 4:35 PM

To avoid misleading anyone I've updated the comments to my original test video with this latest info. Sorry for any confusion it created and looking forward to an eventual certification and official announcement.

Cameras: Z-Cam E2 w/Canon EF turbo mount, Canon xf605 & xf305, JVC gv-LS2, Canon 6D w/L-glass line.
Laptop: Dell XPS15-9570; i7-8750h 32gb (uhd-630 {100.9664} & gtx1050ti {516.94}) Win11
Road: Intel NUC8 i7-8809g 32gb (igpu AMD VegaM 4gb {21.8.2 [Mod]} & igpu Intel hd630 {100.9415}) Win11
Workstation: LC i9-11900k 64gb (LC 6900xt 16 gb {22.5.1}, 1660ti 6 gb {516.94} & uhd750 {101.3222} ) Win11
Workstation: i9-9900k 32 gb (Radeon VII 16gb {22.5.1} & uhd630 {101.2111}) Win10

Workstation2: Xeon-1650v4 128 gb (5700xt 8gb {22.5.1} & gtx1660 6gb {516.94}) Win10
Workstation3: i7-980X 24gb (Sapphire Nitro+ RX580 8gb {21.q3}) Win10
currently active Vegas 17.455, Vegas 18.527, Vegas 19.643.

Red Car & Pip Benchmarks: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TK2lyFZSlzU9JQ8xO1mvoj-zl9tyj2lc?usp=sharing
Benchmark Tables: RoundUp21 , RoundUp2020, and earlier
(ffMetrics by fifonik) Encoder Quality Tables by me: http://www.rtpress.com/ffmetrics.htm
LutP utility to create OpenFX xml preset files for the Vegas LUT fx in Vegas 17, 18, & 19.

 

jomomultimedia wrote on 8/2/2022, 10:30 AM

Any updates on this topic? One of the main reasons I upgraded to 19 was the belief that ProRes RAW support would be a thing. I have a NinjaV+ full of ProRes files that I can't do anything with ;(

Not to sound negative, but as I now see ads to buy the upcoming Vegas 20 (which also doesn't list ProRes RAW support in its features), and after almost a year of relative silence (looking on this forum and continuous, frequent googling/reading Reddit etc.) on this topic, I'm feeling like I made a mistake jumping in on Vegas 19.

Yes I know the official feature list for 19 never truly specified PR RAW support. But there were plenty of posts, rumors, videos on YT, and tidbits elsewhere (including this very thread claiming that it works, which it won't for me despite so many tries) that led me and others to believe it was going to happen. I can't be the only one sitting here with a modern camera and Ninja wondering about this, and I really don't want to have to look back to Adobe or another software maker to get the ability to use PR RAW files.

Now, I DO see a logo for ProRes Raw on the new "upgrade to Post v20" sales blurb thing I have to click through every time I start Vegas Post 19 now and frankly I am pissed off. I'm not going to pay ANOTHER $600 to get literally one feature that was supposed to be in the one that I already upgraded to, and getting it slapped in my face every time I launch 19 is just making the feeling so much worse.

Please, PLEASE add that ProRes Raw support into 19 and do not try to tell me you "can't."

 

jetdv wrote on 8/2/2022, 12:09 PM

I'm not going to pay ANOTHER $600 to get literally one feature that was supposed to be in the one that I already upgraded to,

Why would you when the upgrade price is under $200?

It it may be very possible that they "can't" - depending on the rules set forth by Apple...

VEGASDerek wrote on 8/2/2022, 12:22 PM

ProRes RAW support has been in a work in progress. It does require certification from Apple, which we are in the process of getting. It takes several iterations to get all the specific requirements worked out.

jomomultimedia wrote on 8/2/2022, 2:11 PM

 

ProRes RAW support has been in a work in progress. It does require certification from Apple, which we are in the process of getting. It takes several iterations to get all the specific requirements worked out.

Hi Derek. That I understand, as a general matter. But that's not really what we are discussing. I don't understand why it had to get slow-rolled to conveniently be in 20 but not 19. 19 has not been out for very long and this feels intentional. Am I wrong? Also, is it, or is it not true that it will never be added into 19 (and will be exclusive to 20 and later) 19 or am I overreacting?

fr0sty wrote on 8/2/2022, 5:51 PM

ProRes RAW support was never promised to be a feature for VEGAS 19, it was never advertised to be compatible. They tried, but were not able to get it certified and implemented into VEGAS 19 in time. Each version of VEGAS has a roughly one year life cycle, and this has been the case going back many years. VEGAS 19 released around this time last year, so... it's at the end of its life cycle.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/2/2022, 5:51 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

jomomultimedia wrote on 8/3/2022, 5:11 PM

ProRes RAW support was never promised to be a feature for VEGAS 19, it was never advertised to be compatible. They tried, but were not able to get it certified and implemented into VEGAS 19 in time. Each version of VEGAS has a roughly one year life cycle, and this has been the case going back many years. VEGAS 19 released around this time last year, so... it's at the end of its life cycle.

I'd like to hear a definitive yes/no from the official Magix reps.

Secondly, if taken literally, the second part of your reply logically inplies that Vegas should cost $600+ a year (if we purchase standalone version on a one year cycle), which is more by far than even the most expensive competitors on the most expensive subscription plan.

Greg-Kintz wrote on 8/3/2022, 6:08 PM

Will ProRes Raw allow for HDR metadata, import and export?

And for PCM multichannel audio support?

RogerS wrote on 8/3/2022, 10:25 PM

@jomomultimedia On pricing that ignores that Vegas has upgrade prices, not just full pricing. Recent pricing for Vegas Pro Edit (editing software only) has been ~$70 late in the VP 19 lifecycle. We'll see what 20 is but probably ~$100?

You'll find out about ProRes Raw once VP 20 is released and 19 is no longer updated this month.