VEGAS Pro 17 Update 5 (Build 452)--darker footage...?

eyekaider wrote on 5/29/2020, 2:17 AM

I could be wrong here, and perhaps other users can set me right, but after the recent "VEGAS Pro 17 Update 5 (Build 452) " update, the footage I am working with now looks a lot darker. Previously, I had more half tones, now, not so much. Can anyone else confirm this?

Comments

Marco. wrote on 5/29/2020, 2:55 AM

No change there. Maybe you accidentally use a 32 bit floating point project in build 452 instead of 8 bit.

eyekaider wrote on 5/29/2020, 3:07 AM

@Marco. Thanks for the response. I am a VP newb, but I checked my settings and it is 8-bit, as intended.

adis-a3097 wrote on 5/29/2020, 3:15 AM

What's a half tone?

RogerS wrote on 5/29/2020, 8:24 AM

By half tone you mean midtones? Vegas didn't change, so something else did. Feel free to post a screenshot.

eyekaider wrote on 5/29/2020, 2:36 PM

@EricLNZ The preview/raw footage appears darker than prior to the update. I did check on other NLE's and my footage does show less dark. (Contrary to @RogerS, is not the point of an update a change?) Monitor is calibrated and functioning. However, if no one else complains, then I will let this drift and see if this problem occurs with other footage.

RogerS wrote on 5/30/2020, 1:39 AM

No, the update is specific bug fixes, not general changes to the program. I have been testing Vegas color quite a bit lately as a beta tester for a Lut.

Feel free to post an example or link to a clip. I recommend using scopes to confirm what you are seeing.

 

NickHope wrote on 5/30/2020, 1:52 AM

@eyekaider If you share a sample file somewhere like Dropbox, Google Drive, OneDrive, mega.nz, wetransfer.com or mediafire.com I'd be happy to compare it in VP16 etc. vs VP17.

RogerS wrote on 5/30/2020, 10:35 PM

Exactly, I was going to offer the same- I have 15-current installed on my computer.

eyekaider wrote on 5/31/2020, 12:26 AM

Greetings @NickHope @RogerS here is a sample of the footage. I can send screenshots of the difference in the other NLE's if that helps. Thanks for looking into this. A bit shaky, but it is the color I am interested in.

https://bit.ly/2XFlHcA

@adis-a3097 A 'half tone' is a printing term denoting grey scale. If you watch old movies like Metropolis or Nosferatu, you will see little greyscale. Same with early photocopies of images, not much grey scale. I used to work in printing and the phrase half-tones was frequently used. Even when color copiers came out. "Toner" is used for color/black and white copiers, a powdery ink. In the realm of color, I suppose 'gradients' would also be used. I was trying to express 'lack of gradient'.

adis-a3097 wrote on 5/31/2020, 2:03 AM

Oh...I see.

I thought you were referencing musical half tones, like "dis", as opposed to whole tones, like "A"...which, actually, is what my name is consisting of. 😇

NickHope wrote on 5/31/2020, 2:05 AM

@eyekaider The luminance is exactly the same in VP16 and VP17 build 452. I tried with the default so4compoundplug decoder, and also with hardware decoding (AMD UVD) on an off in VP17, and also with the older compoundplug decoder by disabling so4compoundplug.

eyekaider wrote on 5/31/2020, 2:28 AM

@NickHope Thank you for looking into this.Then it probably has something to do with my computer settings. I am new to Vegas Pro and my current graphics card is the AMD RX 560 (4 gig version) and have the X-RITE Color Munki Display calibrator and the previews are viewed on an ASUS PB238 monitor.

NickHope wrote on 5/31/2020, 2:45 AM

A program such as Just Color Picker is useful for sampling the RGB values that your display is actually showing you, and therefore for comparing between programs. However from the webpage it does look like it's getting a bit bloaty. I use a simpler, older version of it called Takecolor. Color Cop can also do it.

The black level in the clip you shared needs lifting for most delivery scenarios.

RogerS wrote on 5/31/2020, 4:16 AM

Greetings @NickHope @RogerS here is a sample of the footage. I can send screenshots of the difference in the other NLE's if that helps. Thanks for looking into this. A bit shaky, but it is the color I am interested in.

https://bit.ly/2XFlHcA

@adis-a3097 A 'half tone' is a printing term denoting grey scale. If you watch old movies like Metropolis or Nosferatu, you will see little greyscale. Same with early photocopies of images, not much grey scale. I used to work in printing and the phrase half-tones was frequently used. Even when color copiers came out. "Toner" is used for color/black and white copiers, a powdery ink. In the realm of color, I suppose 'gradients' would also be used. I was trying to express 'lack of gradient'.

Isn't half tone simply a way of rendering B&W images for printing by faking a gradient through the use of differently sized and spaced dots rather than continuous smooth B&W tones? So if your video looks like that, something is wrong!

I opened the file and it does have way too much of the image in the deep shadows and blacks. You should lighten the 3/4 tones to taste and then as Nick mentioned, ensuring your output is legal (16-235, not 0-255) so the players will show it correctly.

Example of lightening the shadows in curves:


(Also, unless you're shooting 60p to slow it down in post I'd shoot 30p and then drop the shutter speed to 1/60 to give you a bit more light indoors. 24p and 1/50 is also valid).

NickHope wrote on 5/31/2020, 4:37 AM

Example of lightening the shadows in curves:

That still leaves the black point at zero. If using the Color Grading Panel, the end of the brightness curve needs lifting up the Y axis, something like this:

RogerS wrote on 5/31/2020, 5:53 AM

Yes, you need another step for legal levels.

Nick, you'd do it in the same curve rather than as an output levels effect?

NickHope wrote on 5/31/2020, 6:46 AM

Yes, you need another step for legal levels.

Nick, you'd do it in the same curve rather than as an output levels effect?

@RogerS Yes I nearly always to all my color correction and leveling in a single Color Curves event FX (which I prefer to the CGP curves because I can move points one unit at a time with the arrow keys on my keyboard).

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about a workflow of doing it in separate FX, which is absolutely fine.

eyekaider wrote on 5/31/2020, 5:08 PM

@NickHope @RogerS Thanks for these insights, I will implement these adjustments. I am still very much in the 'make all the mistakes' phase of my career. I thought that shooting at 60 fps would give me more options in post and did not realize that 30 fps is the better option to get better light. This is an art gallery exhibit opening and I did not have control of lighting. Sometimes I do slow-down footage, but just for select moments.

@RogerS Printing technology has changed a lot since digital outputs. In the earlier days, what you are describing is a 'stippling' effect, lots of little dots to get the shadows. Now things are a bit different and black and white images look fantastic on copiers and printers. These are just old terminologies that survive change in technologies.

@NickHope Because I shoot/edit 1080p footage, my monitors are the same. I was thinking of upgrading the monitor to 4K, but someone told me not to do so unless my footage is the same. Thoughts?

john_dennis wrote on 5/31/2020, 6:48 PM

@eyekaider

"Using a UHD monitor for your work space will give you a lot more real estate even if your media is acquired and delivered in FHD. You could have your timeline and many open dialog boxes on your main screen even if you send your preview to your current FHD monitor." he said as he soldiers along with a single 1920 x 1200 monitor.

RogerS wrote on 5/31/2020, 10:12 PM

For frame rate I'd pick one that doesn't cause flicker with lighting, especially if it's fluorescent. So if you're in N. America you might choose 1/50 over 1/60 if you are in a gallery. Either way you'll get more light than you would shooting at 60fps and a shutter speed of 1/60 to 1/120. If you just want a few seconds of slow motion Vegas can help do that. Here's a tutorial showing

I hadn't heard of stippling before and looked it up.

While halftone printing is using dots with regular spaces in between to simulate grays (think newsprint), it appears stippling is a similar technique but done by artists by hand:

Halftoning is a reproduction technique for photography in printing. The continuous tones of the images are represented by fulltone dots of varying size, shape and density. While printing technology brought this to perfection over time, computer graphics researchers developed methods that modified this process for artistic purposes. For purposes of halftoning, dots are distributed in repetitive patterns. Stippling, an artistic illustration technique, distributes them in a random but expressive way. Illustrators aim at representing tone and texture of an object by such patterns

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-3-Halftoning-and-Stippling-Deussen-Isenberg/290afaae964460681ea54f1fc9b2e9ac2eca4c90

Even today if you magnify a seemingly continuous toned inkjet print enough you'll see defined dots of color. (Before I started with video I did photography including digital B&W printing)

NickHope wrote on 6/1/2020, 2:26 AM
Because I shoot/edit 1080p footage, my monitors are the same. I was thinking of upgrading the monitor to 4K, but someone told me not to do so unless my footage is the same. Thoughts?

I'm getting on pretty well with my LG 43UM7300PTA 43" UHD TV. The last time I looked at "proper" 43" UHD monitors they had issues, such as after-image. This TV was a third of the cost and is OK, but it needs setting up carefully (Game mode, switch off all sharpening/interpolation/denoising etc.) to not be terrible. It gives me a full 1920x1080 preview (top left), same as my old 1920x1200 alongside it, which I usually just use for web browser etc. and not monitoring. I calibrated according to this tutorial. Unfortunately I have a bug whereby Windows unloads the calibration a couple of times a day. Probably a Windows problem, or maybe GPU, but worth mentioning.

By the way, I suggest you install SeMW Extensions and use "PC mode" in the Preview Levels feature to get a WYSIWYG preview (for most delivery scenarios) in your VEGAS Video Preview window. Especially useful if you only monitor in that preview window.

eyekaider wrote on 6/1/2020, 3:23 AM

@NickHope Wow, thanks for these links! This is what I need! The preview monitor I use is 5+ years IPS HD via HDMI, 23 inches and the other is a HD 22 inch DVI connection monitor where I keep all the controls. I was eyeing the 4K IPS for graphics/video if that would give me some kind of edge to do better work. Otherwise I can hold on longer for a good 4K monitor for video/graphics as they may keep dropping in price. I use Displaycal with my XRITE Munki. Looks like you have PreSonus studio monitors and use Lightworks because of that mouse thingy. And I guess that white thing behind your TV is the audio interface? Nice mobile phone and figures! Cool studio!

NickHope wrote on 6/1/2020, 4:00 AM

I mainly just use the PreSonus studio monitors as general purpose computer speakers. For video and audio work I monitor on the old M-Audio BX5 above them.

I've never used Lightworks. The "mouse thingy" is a very old Contour ShuttlePRO v2, which still works well with VEGAS etc..

The white thing is my computer. My audio interface is an M-Audio M-Track behind the little white dish.

(Far from proud of this "studio", which has been my "temporary" workplace for 10 years lol. The figures are mostly junk that came free with some food and didn't reach the bin yet. And the my real phone is taking the photo. Can't fault a vintage Nokia though!)