VST support...


Weevil wrote on 3/18/2005, 12:59 AM
...it’s not an NLE, but a word processor with exceptional video editing features...

That cracked me up, I laughed and laughed and laughed...then I felt like crying...

As Homer J would say ‘It’s funny coz it’s true’
Rednroll wrote on 3/18/2005, 1:28 AM
It's ok Peter, you can laugh with us. I know you're in no comment mode for this thread.
Weevil wrote on 3/18/2005, 3:30 AM
Yeah big Pete, nothing at all personal. I know you guys are trying your best. I just INCREDIBLY VIOLENTLY projectile disagree with Sony on this issue.

And big red, two of yer links up there are to the same page???...(I’ve just noticed that you can now link directly to a specific post using the url embedded in the ‘Reply By:’ field...nifty).

...And I wish we had sig files coz the word processor line would be mine.
Angels wrote on 3/18/2005, 5:14 AM
"If you use Nuendo that doesn't mean you can't still use Sound Forge. Open up the individual files in Sound Forge, edit them, save them. Then reopen your Nuendo (or they way be a 'refresh' command) and you are done. It can't be much more work then how you go about it in Vegas.
Or alternatively, create a draft mix and bring that into Nuendo, deal with the MIDI and bounce those tracks down and bring them into Vegas for further mixing and editing."

Yes, you're right; there are alternatives and what you describe is part of my workflow but when you're working against deadlines it can be a royal pain, and you don't have the luxury of tailoring the MIDI to the an spec without several iterations of the back and forth process. Also, sending sounds to Forge from Vegas and returning to Vegas with updated file in place is a painless and immediate process: Send to SoundForge, edit save, and return to the Vegas window and it's done. While Nuendo does have some sound editing abilities, it doesn't offer the same flexibility as Forge or Wavelab (Wavelab doesn't integrate with Nuendo the way Forge does with Vegas).

Thanks for the suggestions ;)
Angels wrote on 3/18/2005, 5:49 AM

Thanks for speaheading this whole Acid/Vegas audio integration issue. I've suggested it myself in the past, and it seems like the only viable way for Sony to compete in the DAW market (if they choose to do so: their original interest seems to have been the video products). I've neither the time and energy for this type of campaign, but I just wanted you to know that many of your sentiments regarding how these products are evolving reflect my own.

But witholding technological progress for profit is a tried and true recipe, especially easy with software. The trick is to give just enough to encourage people into buying upgrades, while witholding enough to make the sure you have something to stimulate the next upgrade's sales. It can be a thin line, and Sony_SF has been very good at it so far; personally I find they've been too good.

Recently I feel they've been floundering, rehashing old technology and throwing it into the pot, especially with SoundForge: CDA, Batch Converter (I already own both, and I paid for CDA... why are these new features? At least make CDA a multitrack...), the relatively new envelopes in Forge's various envelope editing windows, like pitch bend, don't have zooms to make them really useful (ptich correction anyone?). Ideas seems short sighted and incomplete; there's only so long a snake can keep eating it's tail.

At this rate, I expect Sony_SF to integrate Vegas's audio editing features and Acid in about 6-10 years. That's if we haven't all jumped ship and that this division of Sony still exists by then.

But on the other hand, ultimately, the greatest audio machinery for me would entail a glorious unification of Acid, SoundForge and Vegas into ONE package (the AVS system?). No need for multiple programs, pure integration, everything available in one system and one menu structure (OK, give me a couple of Video tracks for post too). Now THAT would be a wonderful thing. And, please note Sony_DF, there really is NOTHING like that currently on the market.

Here's to hoping,


Rikki_B wrote on 3/18/2005, 9:07 AM
Hey Pipe,

You mean there actually IS a noise gate out there that doesn't suck????

What would that be, if you don't mind my asking? This has been bugging me for years...
pwppch wrote on 3/18/2005, 12:50 PM
You should contact Yamaha and Mackie to request they develope drivers for Vegas and their specific hardware devices.

We chose the Mackie Control Universal because it was a device that provides the type of integration we desire from and external control device. It is a device that is emulated by many other hardware controllers available.

I will make our stances on this issue very clear:
We will not be developing native drivers for any external control device past, present, or future. We will provide technical assistance and a SDK to any hardware manufacture that desires to develope native External Control Surface device drivers for Vegas.

Why this is our policy:

Since they are the experts on their hardware, it should be a very simple and cost effective engineering problem for them to develope a driver. Far easier than it would be for us to obtain the hardware, learn the product and its internal protocol, and then develope and test the driver.

Please feel free to have these vendors contact me directly if they are at all interested in developing native driver support for Vegas. I will do everything I can to help them realize this.

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/18/2005, 1:05 PM
Not to open any old wounds. But this has been going on since Vegas' inception. Here are some I think in the vegas 1 days



Sadly it was our very own users many times objecting to basic audio features. I think now, that rednroll wasnt opposed to them so much as which ones he wanted first, and his agendas were different than mine.

SPOT/DSE on the other hand loudly objected to them spending any time on basic audio features and functionality.

Now that we all are more or less on the same page, and years later now that we all sort of have our priorities narrowed, maybe we can all speak with one voice.

It all might come to naught, as our voice is much much quieter than the video voices. And remember they pay the bills so dont hate them too much
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/18/2005, 1:11 PM
the ultrafunk gate R3. It has all the features of a good analog gate ( except sidechaining)

My favorite was the drawmer DS201

Like the drawmer the Ultrafunk gate R3 has:

1. Frequency selective key input! Both a hipass and lowpass filter for deciding what frequencies will open the gate. No longer will the hi hat open your snare!

2. All three controls, Attack, Hold, and Release

Even better than the DS201, and the whole reason for putting a noisegate on the pc in the first place, the Ultrafunk gate R3 has lookahead! Even better, you control the amount of lookahead time. You can make some very creative effects, or basically actually have the gate open for the attack of the signal, instead of getting it lopped off.

I had to buy sonar in order to get the newer versions that support automation, but there may be a way to get it from cakewalk, although I cant find info on their site
Rednroll wrote on 3/18/2005, 1:48 PM
Pipe, Just for clarification in the past discussions. The part that you always seem to have a hard time grasping, I want to make this clear to you once again, so please follow along this time. I never really disagreed with what you're asking for. Why would I? Why would I object to any audio feature that made Vegas more attractive as a DAW? I actually, thought it was a legitimate suggestion. The problem is that you would come in and say, "How do I do this in Vegas?" I would reply to you here are steps A,B,C and D to achieve what you're looking for. Your reply was always defensive in that you didn't like to do it that way and that If I was an engineer that did music recording for a living then I would understand why you needed to have it that way. Pipe, I did understand what you where saying and I did understand the need for it. I also explained to you how you achieve the same results doing it in another fashion, and suggested you try it before you knock it. You always seemed to be closed minded to try another method to work at. So just so you are clear, I never objected to the suggestion, because I understood how people work and method they preferred to work in especially when coming from a backgroud of using tape machines. Hey Pipe, I've recorded on 32 tracks of Adat's, 32 tracks of DA-88's and also 48 tracks of dual 2" machines synced up and connected to an SSL, all before I started using Vegas. I guess I had some background to understand what you where saying. The problem is Vegas didn't do it that way, I tried to help you overcome the same obstacles that I had to overcome and I outlined to you the way to achieve it. You took it that I was the reason WHY Vegas didn't do it the way you wanted it to. Hey Pipe, one of these days you'll realize Sony does not solely listen to me and my feature suggestions. Look how hard I'm kicking and screaming now, and even Peter states that I've been saying it for years. If they solely listened to me and implement only on my suggestions, then why do I read a line that says "ACID will never be a DAW + MIDI sequencer + looping."? Am I clear on what our differences have been in the past? I start off trying to assist you and you start screaming at me that I'm not an engineer that does music, where actually I had already walked the path you where questioning about, and giving you a usuable solution. This is what I was being criticized for by you Pipe, when I was trying to assist you, and you wonder why the kicking and fighting would break out.
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/18/2005, 3:48 PM
I don't think it was quite that simple, and I don't blame you, and like I said I dont need to open any old wounds. I just hope that we can agree, that we may need to be speaking more with one voice now. Maybe between us all we could agree what features we really need to scream about, but I'm holding the line personally that at least the very basics of multitrack recording should be implemented.

I hate to even think it, as it would be sad for me to see Vegas go, but maybe your ACID paradigm is the smartest one at this point.
James Young wrote on 3/18/2005, 4:43 PM
Is there a way to get a 'sticky' on this forum with a wishlist, perhaps prioritized via voting? I know the people actually working on Vegas know what we want, but maybe this would be a better way to re-inforce or motivate progress.
SonyEPM wrote on 3/18/2005, 5:46 PM
Here's some tidbits to chew on: There will be a Vegas 6 someday. There will be new features that appeal to video purists, audio purists, as well as new features that appeal to people who need to deliver killer video and killer audio together-the broad digital media middle.

Some of the new features of Vegas 6 will be of the "long overdue/everybody has that" variety. Happens every rev.

Some features that may seem like "obvious additions" to some of you will NOT be present. Happens every rev.

Some interesting and innovative features nobody will have anticipated will surface...you'll have to evaluate them against your workflow needs but there's some cool stuff in the works we think. Happens every rev.

When you fire up Vegas 6 for the first time, a Vegas 1,2 3,4,5 user will feel right at home and be up to speed instantly.

H2000 wrote on 3/18/2005, 6:09 PM
"more than two but less than 4 letters"

hmmm, what could that be?

I'm sure it will make me happy! :-)

Rednroll wrote on 3/18/2005, 6:46 PM
"more than two but less than 4 letters."
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/18/2005, 7:08 PM
lets all wish for a 6 letter one that ends with DM

or something really cool called "SFIO" errr now that would be SVIO I guess
Weevil wrote on 3/18/2005, 8:13 PM
I just hope that we can agree, that we may need to be speaking more with one voice now.

Back in the good old days there were not many areas that Vegas lagged badly behind everyone else in the game. [sigh] Remember when we were young and spunky and right up there with the big boys...

The little leaks seemed like small issues and (blissfully ignorant) we argued about the many different directions the game could take.

Little did we know (because Sony never told us) that Sony had decided to spit the dummy and not compete in our game anymore. (The phrase ‘appalling failure at management level’ comes vividly to mind, as does the phrase ‘are you really surprised your customers are now this pissed off’)

How the hell were we supposed to know Sony had gone all queer-eye on us?

We spent years loyally paddling away, in our own minds thinking we were all heading for the finishing line. Now we find out that Sony’s priorities have been about prancing around and making sure the deck chairs look all tickety-boo.

It’s only now we all realise how far up the creek we truly are, and it’s now we also realise we gotta stick together.
Weevil wrote on 3/18/2005, 8:24 PM
Is there a way to get a 'sticky' on this forum with a wishlist, perhaps prioritized via voting? I know the people actually working on Vegas know what we want, but maybe this would be a better way to re-inforce or motivate progress.

There is no way in hell they would ever do that.

Because unless the entire rest of the PC music universe is incorrect ‘Rewire, MIDI and VSTi’ would fill the first three places and it would be daylight fourth.

And that just isn’t going to look all that flash up against the “were doin’ it for our audio customers” corporate doublespeak is it.
Weevil wrote on 3/18/2005, 8:42 PM
Okay weevil’s Dirty Half-Dozen

My top 6 things that need to be added to Vegas to drag it kicking and screaming into this millennium.

(As opposed to the 6 things I personally would like to see for myself)

REW: (also known as Rewire)
MID: (also known as MIDI)
VSi: (also known as VST/VSTi)
TPM: (also known as Tempo mapping)
ADM: (also known as ASIO Direct Monitoring)
FXF: (also known as FX Freeze)

Actually I just bunged the FXF in there because it fits the acronym...And dirty half-dozen sounds way, way cooler than dirty 5...

Anyone else with a list? Remember keep it short and snappy and stick to the basics.
Vegas - The Big Gamble wrote on 3/19/2005, 5:29 AM
As a Vegas 4 user I felt right at home when I first used Vegas 5.

But when I felt after a short while that some previous mixes were sounding different/narrower and disovered all the routing had changed so my bus sends were not following track panning I felt like someone had been in my "home" and changed things around without telling me!

Let's hope at least this time nothing so fundamental is changed without a clear warning (and, for heaven's sake, an option to change it *back*!!!)
Rednroll wrote on 3/20/2005, 8:19 PM
SonyPCH said:
"Please feel free to have these vendors contact me directly if they are at all interested in developing native driver support for Vegas. I will do everything I can to help them realize this."

Peter, I just wanted to address your comments regarding hardware controlers. I agree with you that you guys shouldn't have to develop a driver to interface someone elses hardware controler. Then I also don't see it practical for a hardware controler developer to specifically design individual driver models for all the different apps that their controler will be used with. Especially for an app like Vegas, which doesn't seem to be the leading app in the DAW market. This is why I was happy to see you guys release the generic midi driver for midi controler devices. This doesn't seem like it's the best scenario also. So what I see here is an OPPORTUNITY to develop a solution that would work for both sides. My thoughts are Steinberg developed ASIO, because a WAVE driver wasn't an optimal solution, so I'm making the same analogy for generic midi driver, vs something that doesn't seem to exist yet. In your apps for supporting CD burners, you don't want to have to develop a driver for every burner out there also, which you shouldn't have to, thus the appeal to use the MMC compatible drivers. So my thought is someone needs to make a driver that can become a standard driver for hardware controlers. This way all the DAW apps can agree upon developing a common driver to support hardware controlers and the hardware controler developers can develop that driver which will be supported in all those apps. I mean it's like sound card developers don't develop specific drivers for all the apps their product is going to be used in, they develop a WAVE driver and an ASIO driver. So as I said, I see an opportunity here for someone to develop a standard hardware controler driver, where the hardware controler devices can develop to that driver type. In my opinion Vegas doesn't have the market share to drive a standard hardware controler driver, because it's an NLE with DAW like features. It seems like Cakewalk, is in the same boat as far as having to individually support hardware controlers, and from my understanding Ron Kuper is a personal friend of yours. Maybe that's an opportunity to give the Cakewalk folks a call and say, "Hey let's develop a standard hardware controler driver model." If you could further get Steinberg in on the team to also agree on the specs of this common driver model, now you have some serious weight, to give the hardware controler developers to develop a driver that will then be supported in Sonar, Vegas, Nuendo, and Cubase. Basically, this allows for everyone to be aiming for the same target, and it's a win/win situation for both sides. Is this possible? Basically, I'm asking if someone can be the champion of developing a new driver model, similar to how ASIO became a standard driver model, where now most of the apps out there and hardware out there have to support ASIO. It's an ASIO approach for hardware controlers, maybe codename HCIO. (Hardware Controler In/Out".


PipelineAudio wrote on 3/20/2005, 11:30 PM
rednroll, have you seen the way controllers work ( theoretically) with nuendo.

it looks like something our good old super UI SF wouldve done. not quite that good but close. You just set up whatever controller you want and assign whatever functions wherever.

That would kill off the lights and visual feedback I believe Peter had said so already, but for everything else it seems right I think.

I wish we had an option of turning off the variable velocity thing on the MCU's V pots!!!
ziggly wrote on 3/21/2005, 6:09 PM
"You tell me your problem and ill tell you our policy,
you keep telling me your problem and ill keep telling you our policy"

this statement was made by a very rude clerk at a courthouse.
when someone would approach the counter with a comment about the
uncomfortable conditions there or some matter thats's come up.
the clerk, she would SCREAM the above statement, not just at the person but at the whole room full of adults. like we were kids in pre-school.

"You tell me your problem and ill tell you our policy,
you KEEP telling me your problem and ILL KEEP TELLING YOU OUR POLICY!"
this was her way of saying to those of us on jury duty,
sit down and shut up!

this statement comes to mind when i think of the honest hearted users
who come to this fourm with a comment or a complaint about a feature
they feel would really help them in vegas .....only to be told time
and again "vegas is an NLE" "vegas is what it is and does what it does"

i seldom post (check my profile, i only posted 3 times) so please bear with me

TO ALL THOSE AT SONY I SAY THIS : its true vegas "is what it is" so is Avid Xpress. Avid Xpress is what it is. so is EV3RY OTHER APPLICATION.
is there any application that is not what it is? is there any application
that does NOT do what it does??


sometimes when we start talking about features that would help us
were told "i have heard this all before" "its the same thing you guys have
been saying for years" well.....let me just clear the air, this IS the right
place to express yourself. when users offer work arounds thats cool, but no
matter what features they add, and no matter what features they leave out
people are still gonna have questions and comments right??
so express yourself.

oh and by the way...."vegas is a NLE" when will we get it? "vegas is a nle
NOT a DAW" dosent that company line just make you feel all warm and fuzzy
inside.....L O L.

its true vegas is a NLE BUT....it was advetized as a NLE

"Sonic Foundry proudly introduces Vegas™, a combination full-featured
nonlinear video editor and multitrack digital audio editor designed
for video postproduction and multichannel audio mixing. Vegas was
designed with one thing in mind—to create a more efficient
audio/media production environment without sacrifices to the
exceptional sonic quality and superior processing power professionals
have come to expect from Sonic Foundry."

"what you can do with vegas audio
Manipulate multiple audio tracks at once with Vegas audio,
turning your PC into a complete, professional recording studio."

this is a description of vegas audio2. i could of just as easily qouted
from the description of vegas 4 which i recall sony describing as a
'a complete solution for audio production' (i dont have that catalog handy
otherwise i would have quoted directly)

the point is Vegas was advertized as a nle AND as a professional multitrack.
ever notice how when peter responds to posts he leaves that part out. he will just say its an NLE.....

am i twisting his words? have i taken anything out of context?? well,before
you claim that i have ask yourself this : its 2005 would any "complete professional (post-production) studio" NOT be able to handle a vst?

SONY..not me... but SONY described vegas 4 as a 'professional audio production enviornment'.
does anyone know of a 'professional audio studio' that CANT handle a midi track??

its sad when user make comments and ask vaild questions and the response is .."when will you get it?" "why do i even bother...you guys twist everything i say" so....were supposed to just 'SIT AND SHUT UP' and wait for the next upgrade right?


i think all posts should state what it is a person clearly wants
my wishlist is simple and focused

1 its march 2005 and it pains me to even ask for VST support
(overdue, long overdue, so is midi)

2 support more file types: rex and sound designer 2 and AU (this is
actually most important to me even though its listed second)

3 the ablitiy, on a click of a button to have vegas convert a whole
project (every audio clip) into a desired file type ( SD2, AU, PCA..)

4 either give me a branching option in the undo window (think alternate paths)or allow me to save a project with the complete undo/redo history in tact

thats all. this seemed to be such a relevant thread and i felt it was important to add my voice to it.

Rednroll wrote on 3/21/2005, 8:00 PM
Thank you for your comments. I think all of us can relate to it. The only bad thing I see in this thread is that I accidentally high-jacked it where, it started off as a "VST" discussion, which progressed to the UAD-1 problem, which led into the be all end all discussion that ties all these things together, which are the growing pain frustrations. I wish now, I had started a seperate thread where we all could have had this discussion. In a lot of ways this discussion reminds me of the "CDtext" post I had started in the CD Architect forum. That forum doesn't get a lot of traffic.....kind of similar to this forum now. The point is, that post stayed in the top ten post topics for over a year, from other users like yourself constantly bringing it back to the top of the list. Guess what? We finally got CDtext support in CD Architect. Like you, it actually pained me to have to keep asking for it, where it seems like such a fundamental feature and just seemed rediculous that a professional CD Authoring program would yet to support it. I see a lot of potential in this thread, where it could remain in the top ten for the next year like that post if it wasn't for the main topic title, where Sony would be staring it in the face on a daily basis for the next year like the CD Architect post and would be constantly reminded......"This is what we as users really want. and this is how we feel" So like that CDtext post, I don't foresee anyone objecting to any of the opinions in this thread and supporting it with their own opinion because, this is one of those things we can all relate too with a common frustration.