VST support...

H2000 wrote on 3/16/2005, 10:27 PM

Tough love for sure!
I know that no one would even be posting in this thread if they did not absolutely love Vegas (and ACID) for audio production. This is a credit to you Peter.

I think what bothers people here (at least I have been bothered by it) is that there is no sense of real commitment by Sony to make either/or both products a real complete Audio Production application. Call it what you will - DAW and NLE are just generic terms. When I first tried ACID 1.0, I tried all the other apps. too. I knew right away that SF had what I was looking for. I then bought Vegas Audio 2.0. It was primarily audio only, and it met my needs at the time. I never upgraded to 3.0 because it was called Vegas Video - I don't want a Video Program. Sure, it's just semantics - it's basically the same engine with some extra features, right? Well, no not really. You see, now we have a program whose focus is not to be a complete audio production application. It's now a mixed bag, and each and every update is only half of what it would be if it was either or. And, to further add to that, each of the other's users needs have to be taken into account when adding new features so as not to step on each other.

There is a real sense of frustration here. I don't blame you Peter. You have been saying the same thing and we keep coming back anyway - 'It is what it is'. When people use this software day in and day out and invest their time in learning it and money in upgrades, they want to know that it will develop in line with the way they (and generally, the industry as a whole) work. What I notice here is that people don't have a sense that they know how it will be developed. We are never told outright that it's primarily a Video market product, or that Sony is dedicated to the product in terms of Audio professionals. What we tend to get is an ever morphing political description which is just enough to keep us hanging around.

I'm sorry for being so long winded, but to summarize:
Everything is so close. Sony now has more money (I assume) than Sonic Foundry. Why not take what you have and go for it? Add resources if neccessary. Is the market really that tight that you couldn't make a run of it?
I know you probably can't answer that Peter, but maybe some enlightenment will come our way.

MrPhil wrote on 3/17/2005, 12:31 AM

"We are what we are and we do what we do. The tool does what it does. We have lots of very happy customers."

- What exactly are you, and why do you do the things you do?
Why does the tool do what it does?
How big are you really on the NLE market, the market you want to play in?
How many lots of happy customers do you intend to keep in the future?
Would be interresting to know your policy and thoughts around products vs customer's demands.
' We do what we do and those who want something else can go elsewhere ' isn't the smartest customer approach I've seen (cause that's exactly what they'll do). Neither is letting customers know that they really have a different kind of tool than expected at the stage of v5, when the product started out as - a pro MTR for audio.
Or is it just that the audio section of Vegas is so small that it's not really worth investing in or caring about?

/Phil

Geoff_Wood wrote on 3/17/2005, 12:50 AM

Erik said
"Since many of us will bring in audio files with tempo changes I think being able to at least insert the changes into Vegas' timeline when using the measure/beat display will help a lot in keeping the audio and visuals 'in sync'. "

Of course Vegas imports those tempo changes. The tempo changes are in the music in the file. All Vegas knows about is time, and one second is one second, no matter what is happening in the musical meter. The only failing is that when set to 'measures' on teh graticule, the tempo changes aren't displayed - and what if the musicians don't follow the 'tempo map' either ?

geoff

geoff

Rednroll wrote on 3/17/2005, 1:26 AM

Geoff,
I think I understood what Erik was saying, but I'm unsure of your explaination that contrast that. To set a timeline display in Measures/beats as your timeline, one main purpose to do that is so you can use the timeline as a visual aid, so you know exactly by looking at it, where beat 1 is, or where beat 4 is. I believe what Erik was explaining is that If you import a piece of music that changes tempo, then this basically breaks the use for the timeline, where if you where able to insert a change tempo marker then your timeline would correspond to this. You can't do this, so Erik is correct that the feature is basically useless and no I have never used the measures and beats timeline in Vegas, except when sending midi Beat clock to my external sequencer and viewing it in the time display to make sure they're at the same point when laying off midi tracks to audio. But I can only do that if my sequence doesn't have a tempo change.

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/17/2005, 3:46 AM

While we were making " The Carnie and Trailer Trash Show" BMX video, there were many times where we wanted to sync actions to music. It was a pain in the ass constantly moving the whole entire project to match different songs.

We needed to sync peoples faces smashing into walls, pedals, handrails, and each other with transients in the music. We needed to change clips in time with music too, going from smacking a bellyflop off of a lake jumping ramp, to mooning security guards. What a pain! It couldve been so much faster and easier to just have the tempos where they needed to be, so the grids would have made sense

adowrx wrote on 3/17/2005, 4:09 AM

"I give up.

Forgive me as I go running into the next room, flailing my arms, totaly clueless about what our users want."

I'm asssuming this was a sarcastic statement? Or is it frustration at the course that is planned for Vegas' future??

-jb

Erik_Nygaard wrote on 3/17/2005, 5:51 AM

Yep Red, that was what I meant.
For instance, I may use the measure/beats of the timeline to manually quantize (sp?) some individual notes on a bass-line.

Weevil wrote on 3/17/2005, 6:34 AM

Actually Pipe I’m pretty confident that tempo mapping will be appearing in V6.

I’m positive about VST and very, very sure about the tempo stuff.

Haven’t got a clue about anything else.

...Hard to believe it’s version 6 and I’m on my knees preying for basic tempo functionality...but that’s right it’s a video app...

Angels wrote on 3/17/2005, 6:36 AM

"Forgive me as I go running into the next room, flailing my arms, totaly clueless about what our users want."

Here's what's happening to me: I like to use Vegas and its GUI, I like it's integration with Sound Forge because I need to work with multiple files and edit each one, I don't work with loops but I need MIDI and I need to run Midi simultaneously with with a multitrack, so I find myself turning to Nuendo because I need MIDI, but I miss it's integration with a sound editor (no wavelab integration as with Vegas/forge), and I find the UI isn't as quick and friendly as Vegas for many things and I miss some of the advanced editing options in Forge, so I turn to Vegas because I like to use Vegas and it's GUI, I like it's integration with..........

If even only half the energy and time that has been put into video and animation applications, plugins and accessory programs had been put into audio software development, we would be so far ahead of this. Enjoy your stock options.

A

James Young wrote on 3/17/2005, 8:57 AM

What I have done in the past is create a tick-loop (with highly visible transients) and stretch it so it plays in time. Then just use that as a guide where needed. Easy, and as for being able to snap to a tempo grid, I think it's almost best that it's not possible. In video especially, because really you are gonna be nudging things around, aren't you? Well, I know everyone I work with and myself included don't need the tempo maps. Really, you can make way without such conveniences. It's easy. Can't input monitor? Simple, figure it out on the hardware end like most professionals. No, I didn't mean that in a nasty way, but just realize that you should be relying more on thiings other then Vegas. It is what it is. Hope that improvements will be made, but don't complain or get frustrated, that's all wasted energy. Help others who are having a difficult time with something. Find a solution. Consentrate on the music. Eat your vegetables, etc... And if you really really want it your way, around the corner there maybe a Burger King.

...ugh, that was kinda lame, I apologize. :)

James Young wrote on 3/17/2005, 9:04 AM

Yeah I guess that would be very cool if Sony could let us know what FOR SURE is making it to the next release.

James Young wrote on 3/17/2005, 9:14 AM

If you use Nuendo that doesn't mean you can't still use Sound Forge. Open up the individual files in Sound Forge, edit them, save them. Then reopen your Nuendo (or they way be a 'refresh' command) and you are done. It can't be much more work then how you go about it in Vegas.

Or alternatively, create a draft mix and bring that into Nuendo, deal with the MIDI and bounce those tracks down and bring them into Vegas for further mixing and editing. This is what I do when working with Logic for it's MIDI capabilities. Sure it was kinda a pain the first couple times I tried, then it became second nature and really no problem at all (like most of these inconveniences people talk of)

Just suggestions though, it worked for me, doesn't mean it works for you.

:)

H2000 wrote on 3/17/2005, 10:07 AM

I'm glad that you have a workaround for the problem. Guess what? Everyone here has workarounds for all their issues, otherwise they wouldn't be using Vegas at all.
Yes there are workarounds and solutions for every problem. That's not really the point though.
The point is that we all bought an Audio Multitrack program which at the time was advertised as, marketed as, and quite frankly was IMO the best one out there. The problem is that somewhere along the line all of that changed. Don't tell people here not to be frustrated. It may indeed be a waste of energies, but people here have every right to feel this way. They have invested years sticking with and supporting this program, and they have no idea where it is headed or what it's priorities are. Case in point: the latest update (d) is Video updates only! No notable audio bug fixes or improvements, even though there is a well known metronome bug which has been around for a long time. Now you have people asking for improvements to their Audio program and being told that it is not possible because of the problems it would cause for Video. On top of that, the Audio routing in version5 was changed for the worse without so much as a word mentioned. It was actually discovered and pointed out through someone using it. So, the program as we have known and have been using for years is now changed and we cannot even get our older version mixes to play correctly in version5. In addition, we are told if we want to do basic aux bus routing pan assignments, we must now use a "pan" plugin. It's really ridiculous! So don't tell people they shouldn't be frustrated.

As for people in this thread helping others with problems, I think if you look you will find that everyone who has spoken has been some of the most helpful and supportive people here!

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/17/2005, 11:32 AM

" Can't input monitor? Simple, figure it out on the hardware end like most professionals "

Just so that you will be informed of what you speak next time, most professionals figured long ago to use latency free autoinput monitoring, which is impossible currently in Vegas

"Well, I know everyone I work with and myself included don't need the tempo maps."

I know my customers don't want to spend more money(time) watching me click around like hell to move and remap something. Don't know what field you work in but making albums today, for many many bands you need to line up instruments(especially drums) constantly, or they don't come back to you. Its not about them learning their parts, its about them dumping their stuff and you fixing it.

James Young wrote on 3/17/2005, 3:32 PM

"It was actually discovered and pointed out through someone using it."

Yeah I know, that was me! (different user name back then) and I was the one who pointed out the pan plug-in then. But not that really matters, just thought I'd pat myself on the back a bit :) no harm done please....

"So don't tell people they shouldn't be frustrated."

Sorry, I only meant that as a suggestion, didn't mean to come across as rude. You are right, I realize this, I just wonder what will it really take to get Sony to respond to our needs.

James Young wrote on 3/17/2005, 3:49 PM

Pipe you are right that is impossible. I guess I've never come across any software where it is, or more then likely just didn't notice it :)

I just grew out of wanting tempo maps since version 2, I guess. That's all there is to it really. I used to have clients dump stuff on me to fix, and I've always found Vegas to be the fastest at lining up drums and stuff. But I don't know, even without tempo maps it seems to me to be the fastest program out there to do the job.

It will come in handy once it's implemented, no doubt about that.

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/17/2005, 3:59 PM

you are right, and thats the thing that glues a lot of us firmly to vegas, even without the tempo maps, it still is way faster, disgustingly so, but see we have a taste also of what few things other companies are doing right, so we want it all :)

Monitoring seems mature now in samplitude, parallel sends are possible even in zero latency. Nuendo can do mono outs without panning. Putting the two together would make vegas perfect.

H2000 wrote on 3/17/2005, 4:52 PM

Hey, thanks James - not only for pointing it out to us but giving us a workaround! Actually, when I emailed customer support regarding this, they pointed me to your post as the workaround (pan plugin). That was after speaking with several customer support people who knew nothing about it. So, thank you.

And no, your not rude. Frustration is often a waste of time, but sometimes when someone tells you not to be frustrated, it's like you are being told your feelings aren't valid. I realize that's not what you meant, but at the time i felt like I had to say what I had to say. No apologies neccessary.

Weevil wrote on 3/17/2005, 5:59 PM

I’m with red (and have been for a long time now on this), I wish they would scrap any further audio developments in Vegas. I think all of us would be a hell of a lot happier if they took those resources and put them into ACID.

Let the bad guys have all the video features they want. The carpet got pulled from under us long ago; they got control of Vegas, let them have it all, good luck to them.

At least half the developments that go into the big V are totally irrelevant to us audio people. Whereas if ACID was a looping and multitrack program then we would be in a win-win situation no matter which side got preference.

There is no reason why ACID couldn’t support the addition of Vegas style audio tracks and Vegas style recording. Use all the resources that would have been spent on the next lot of Vegas audio updates on incorporating that into ACID instead.

Then use the ACID resources on improved MIDI, automation recording, etc...

What a killer solution, ACID 6 the thing we have all been dreaming about for years.

Bad guys would have their app, audio guys would have there’s. No more competing agendas, no more years of putting up with all these half-arsed, compromised, bastardised ‘workarounds’.

...Naturally it would never be that idealised and simple. There would be bumps along the way. Gosh, maybe we would even have to wait till version 7 before everything was ‘perfect’.

Things might be uncomfortable for a little while, but bloody hell, at least we would be finally be free.

Rednroll wrote on 3/17/2005, 9:38 PM

Amen to that. For audio production, we are looking for one well focused app that we can be assured that the development will focus in that area, or at least a way that is up to date with popular technologies to make it more effecient like everything else out there. We have no OMF import/export options. We have no way to save an Acid project as a Vegas Project, or Vegas able to open an Acid project. We have no way to rewire them together, and are told it might break the Video workflow if you do. On top of that our recommendations to overcome these workflow limitations is to purchase third party software. Well hey if you keep telling us that then that's what the users will do, and then you wonder why there's so few Vegas audio users. For years I've been giving feedback to the Sony guys on improving the audio features in Vegas. Now I'm being told it's not a DAW it's an NLE. Well, please point me to where the DAW is because that's the workflow I'm interested in and we can work together in developing that app. You think we're frustrated with no cause? Well try breaking up the desired Video features between 2 seperate apps that are difficult to link a project together and see how many frustrated video users you have saying the same thing we are. Instead of adding their requested feature to Vegas, add it to Acid and they'll look at you bewildered and confused too and wonder, "Why the hell did they do that, I thought Vegas was the video program?"

Weevil wrote on 3/17/2005, 10:47 PM

and then you wonder why there's so few Vegas audio users

...Big red...

...You are scaring me now...

...I hope that is a purely hypothetical question you have got the Sony guys asking themselves there.

Surely you haven’t had firsthand interactions with them indicating that that is where there heads are at???

I mean seriously...after all these years...the Sony people don’t really sit around saying ‘Gee, why is it that more audio people aren’t buying Vegas’, do they???

Sorry to be sounding like a smartarse, but that is waaaaaay heading towards bizarro world territory.

...“We’ve got this square peg. And by-crikey we are gunna shove it down this round hole. We have no luck so far...we just can’t figure it out...there must be some big problem with the hole”...

JamesHE wrote on 3/17/2005, 11:43 PM

I think you guys need to stop looking at Vegas in terms of video vs. audio, and look at it for what it is, a multimedia program. Vegas went in the multimedia direction long ago, the problem is that to a lot of people, some things got left behind in the purely audio side to get it there. One day Vegas just might do everything perfectly, but thats going to be a long ways away...

I think a lot of the frustration is in the name "Sony" being behind Vegas now. It seems that If anyone could pour the resources into a program to make it the best, most feature laden, sweetest thing ever it would be Sony!!! Surely Sony has the capability to put in the work to make a product to compete with any program out there - but it dosen't feel like they are trying to make the best DAW - which is what we want.(even if that DAW is sitting inside a NLE) And we want that DAW to look and feel like Vegas. But, would that even be profitable for Sony to do so? Has digidesign locked up the pro/semi-pro market completly? let's hope not- and hope that Sony takes us there. What we have now is great, but it has even more potential.

Rednroll wrote on 3/18/2005, 12:14 AM

James,
Just keep telling yourself that as I have for the past few years. We'll all be here to catch you when you fall.

Now aint I a devil :-)~
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=369974&Replies=15&Page=0

Rednroll wrote on 3/18/2005, 12:34 AM

Weevil,
No firsthand conversations you can read it for yourself here written right in these very forums:
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=19&MessageID=264004

Scroll down to Post#6 in that thread.

Oh, and the direction Vegas and Acid is headed incase the point is unclear to anyone
(EDIT):http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=1&MessageID=117703

Here are some of my favorite highlights from the above discussion:
"ACID will never be a DAW + MIDI sequencer + looping."
"ACID can't be this and maintain its focus."
Really? You mean how Vegas started off as a DAW and lost it's focus by adding Video features? Yep, lost it's focus of being a DAW and found a new target to focus on. You think Acid can't lose it's focus in a similar fashion from being strictly a loop sequencer and find a new target of being a DAW?

(EDIT) Sorry, must have gotten my cutting and pasting of links screwed up. Take note that discussion was from Sept. 2002. Here we are in 2005, asking for the same thing and hearing the same answers. I'll see you guys in 2008 and we can have the same discussion again.