VST support...

sstillwell wrote on 3/9/2005, 5:42 PM
Okay, I know it's nothing particularly new, but it just struck me *thud*.

ACID has VST support.
Sound Forge 8 has/will have VST support, fer cryin'-out-loud.

If the next release of Vegas doesn't have VST support, I'm gonna bite the bullet and find something else to do with my money...like collect stamps, or mold samples.

It seems like that's the only way we're ever going to get rid of the freakin' UAD-1 CPU-munching problems...VST. Yes, yes, I know that other programs work with DX format without the problem, but Vegas sure doesn't show any signs of it. It just chaps me raw that the program is SO easy to use and get work done in...yet has these nagging issues that just WON'T go away.

But, given that VST is popping up everywhere else in Sony/SoFo land, I don't think I'm going to be disappointed for much longer *crosses fingers*.

What do you think?



randygo wrote on 3/10/2005, 11:22 AM

I would be *shocked* if Vegas 6 didn't support VST.

All signs are that it will.

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/10/2005, 1:39 PM
sad that the non mixing apps get all the important mixing features like

1. VST support

2. Tempo changes

3. Multiple external editors
Ben  wrote on 3/10/2005, 1:54 PM
Pipe, in all seriousness, why would you want to use any editors besides Forge?
H2000 wrote on 3/10/2005, 2:02 PM
Yes, Vegas6 will undoubtedly follow the trend. VST opens alot of doors (FXFreeze and FX Teleport), as well as taking the UAD-1 Dx Wrapper out of the equation.

Unfortunately, don't count on it fixing the UAD-1 muching problem. I still have the problem in ACID using the VST versions. But, I have also have had success in ACID and Vegas running 95% of my UAD-1 card. Every project seems to be different depending on the combinations and number of various effects. I have had success using extra buffers in ACID to the point of getting NO munching. Likewise, I have had success in Vegas by switching to the Classic Wave Drivers and getting 93% UAD power with zero munching.So it can be done, but it is alot of mucking around to optimize the UAD buffers versus soundcard buffers, etc.
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/10/2005, 2:35 PM
well formerly, for vst plugs and the only noisegate worth a crap, but at this point? not sure
Ben  wrote on 3/10/2005, 2:54 PM
H2000 - yep! It's very frustrating. I wish damn UA would admit to the problem, wise-up and do something about it.

Even better - Sony, how about you contact UA and try to sort this before the release of Vegas 6? I'm sure they'll throw you a couple of UAD cards in a bid to help find a solution.

pwppch wrote on 3/10/2005, 9:56 PM
>>Even better - Sony, how about you contact UA and try to sort this before the release of Vegas 6? I'm sure they'll throw you a couple of UAD cards in a bid to help find a solution.

One more time for those in the back row not paying attention:

I have contacted them - many times.

This is UAs problem and they know and admit it. They have just never done anything about it.

They can't explain the problem.

We see a plugin. We feed it data - just like we talk to every other plugin on the planet. Nothing else native or hardware enhanced causes this problem.


Weevil wrote on 3/10/2005, 10:03 PM
Yeah I’d put the house on V6 supporting VST.

Sony seemed to be adopting it as a supported standard across the range of their products.

...That said; I’m pretty sure that PH prints out all of my product suggestions and predictions and pins them to his wall under the heading ‘features never to appear in Sony software’...So if that is the case, I just might have blown it for everyone...

Must be getting close to Vegas update time. Reckon Sound Forge will be popping out in a matter of days. Shouldn’t the big V be the next cab of the rank?
Vegas - The Big Gamble wrote on 3/11/2005, 11:41 AM
Let's hope so - and let's hope it's a big Yellow cab with enough room in the back for VST and Rewire.

Also - a tempo map (so it doesn't get lost!)

Maybe a bus would be better....

so long as there's full routing between that and other buses..

and an option to use old routing paradigm of pan pre the bus send.

(er.. i think my metaphor just fell apart! Shame, I was just about to find a way to work in "correcting the long-standing metronome bug")

By the way Weevil - are you sure about the house!?????
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/11/2005, 4:22 PM
I agree with Peter 100 % both RME and UAD-1 tech support are a pain in the ass.I cant imagine how they would treat other developers!
Rednroll wrote on 3/13/2005, 10:35 AM
I take it the Sony apps are the only app that have the UAD-1 munching problem? I have heard some Sonar users having problems with the DX versions, but not the same as the munching problem.

If that is the case let me do a little translation.

"This is UAs problem and they know and admit it. They have just never done anything about it. "
Translation: One of the UAD developers has reproed the problem and noticed some strange unexpected behavior taking place with their card.

"They can't explain the problem."
Translation: It only seems to happen with the Sony apps, which amounts to 1% of our sales, therefore we're not going to spend the time it would take to troubleshoot the problem, therefore we're unable to explain what is going on, and it seems to not be just a minor bug, so we're also not going to spend the time/resources that would be needed to fix it. If a developer from Digidesign where on the other side of the phone, then we would find the resources to address this issue.

So how's it feel being the bottom dog on the street, where only a minority of users really know how well you can perform tricks? It's things like this that should be a wake up call. Yes, we that use your apps all agree Sony has the better Mouse trap. If you want to sell that mouse trap to more people then your mouse trap must have the hot ticket items like Rewire Host/Slave, VST, VSTi, Midi, ASIO. You have a small majority of users screaming in these forums for these items because they feel these are necessary items to their workflow, and they want to continue using your product. How many potential users overlooked the app all together because it didn't have these items in the first place? Add up the sales of Nuendo, Cubase, Logic, Protools, and Sonar and you'll have a pretty good representative number.

When you purchase a DVD player do you first look at what the DVD player is capable of? In other words, this DVD player plays DVD-R, DVD+R, DVDrom, MP3, CD, CD-R, CD-RW has component, S-video, Digital outs, plays my .JPG/.BMP pictures from CDrom? Or do you look at the remote control and say, "Hey this remote control is very easy to manuever, around with compared to the other DVD player." "Hmmmm, it doesn't play DVD-R's, but it plays DVD+R's". "Well, I wish it played both, but I can live without it for awhile, because I really like the UI of this remote control." This is where the Sony apps are, where their is definately a few users like myself that can live without all the latest bells and whistles because they love the user interface of the features that are there, and it makes manuevering around the menus of my DVD so much easier, but I have to believe the majority of potential users never look at the remote control when they make their choice, they want to make sure it plays all the latest formats first, then as a second item they look at the remote control. Optimally we want a DVD player that has all the latest ticket item features and has a great remote control. You can't stay competitive in a cut throat competitive market when you're dragging behind the competition by 2 or 3 years on features. People are going to get tired of waiting, when they have other shiny new toys with all the latest and greatest staring at them.

The fact that UAD is not jumping at fixing this problem, shows how little they are concerned with the market share of where their product lies within the Sony app community. Until Vegas/Acid can be the big dog on the block it will always be this way.
pwppch wrote on 3/13/2005, 11:24 AM
Your "translatations" are wrong Red.

Do you even have a UAD card?


Rednroll wrote on 3/13/2005, 5:06 PM
"Your "translatations" are wrong Red."

Ok, what is the right translation then? What is the reason UA would acknowledge a problem and decide not to do anything about it? Why would they not be able to understand the problem and properly diagnosis it if they can reproduce it? Are you telling me that they don't understand their own product well enough to diagnosis it and fix it? From my understanding the problem has existed for years. It doesn't take years to diagnosis a problem and countermeasure it if the proper resources are deligated to it. That's what I do for a living as an electrical engineer Peter. I diagnose a problem and determine if it's hardware design, software design, or manufacturing process related. I then propose solutions to the problem in working through those departments and then ensure the proper resources are deligated to fixing the problem and follow through on the problem until it has been completely resolved.

"Do you even have a UAD card?"
No I don't. What's the price of peaches in China have to do with anything? The thing is, I am interested in picking up one of these cards. From what I've heard is their FX's are pretty close to the original Vintage model, which I'm familiar with using in studios I've worked in the past. I have been reading about this CPU munching problem for years. Why would I buy a defective product, when it's a well known fact that there is a problem between the Sony apps and the UAD-1 card and I'm using the Sony apps? Are you recommending I go back to using ProTools so I can feel comfortable in purchasing one of these cards, because UA won't fix it on their end? That could be a solution, and I'm sure it has been a solution for users that wanted to purchase one of these cards. It's ironic how I can read about Acid's problems with the UAD-1 when I'm visiting the Sonar forums, this should be a concern on your end as I'm sure it is.

If you had your choice Peter, I'm sure you would have had UA fix "their" problem years ago when it was first discovered. The problem is you don't have the "push" to make them fix it. So I think my translation is more accurate than you'ld like to admit. Or are you going to tell me if this problem existed across every software host application out there for everyone of these UAD-1 cards they sold, then UA would still be passive about figuring out what was going wrong? I think not Peter. Remember, I work in the development of products also. In doing that it is me also on the phone, calling the other developer and discussing problems their product is having with my product. I work with silicone manufacturers as well as other audio product developers. In most cases it's the good work relationship between the other vendors that has been developed that is able to get problems fixed between both sides. If that isn't enough then, I know who I can push to set wheels in motion, and I also know who I'm a small drop in a bucket as far as business for them, where I'm at their mercy in getting things done. Sorry, but It doesn't sound like any wheels have been set in motion on the UA side even after you have contacted them on several occassions.

Sorry, it's seems that I've stepped on your toes in this discussion and that is not my intention. Like you I want Vegas and Acid to be the best choice out there, be it from a professional user viewpoint, or a hobbyist. My viewpoint, for that to happen then Vegas/Acid needs to move up on the technology development curve along side other comparible apps. Technologies like scripting and media managers, Sony apps are ahead of the technology curve. That does not mean core technologies that the industry is following should be ignored for 3 years. Punch-in on the fly, along with input monitoring, external hardware control should have been all done by the release of Vegas 3.0, instead it's held back 2 development cycles later than everyone else. But now when it is finally implemented, now the new technology is ASIO direct monitoring and again you're behind the technology curve right after catching up, so it's really not the better mouse trap is it? Yes, when you finally do release a feature it is in most cases better than anything out there. Well, I think it would have been a better approach to develop those technologies at the same time everyone else was, so at least they where available to the user, and then they could have been improved over the next 2 development cycles instead of an all or nothing type of approach. Acid 4 developed with rewire SLAVE capability. Well after that Acid 4.0 release, Vegas 5.0 development, no rewire host. What!? This is like a deliberate invitation for users to purchase another app besides Vegas for multitracking to use along side Acid, then you wonder why users are asking for multitrack features in Acid. Hello? These are all things that the users have been discussing in these forums for years with you, so you've heard it all before. I think we're all wondering, when will someone finally listen and I'm not pointing the finger at you?
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/13/2005, 6:12 PM
I wonder if it couldnt be the same exact problem as what happens with RME, as both appear to be related to buffers
Weevil wrote on 3/13/2005, 6:24 PM
Standing ovation Red. Absolutely positively 100% spot on.

I could write a novel here, but your entire last paragraph says it all absolutely perfectly.

I can not state strongly enough how fundamentally I agree with you. I was practically pounding my desk and yelling ‘yes’ at the end of each sentence.
klyon wrote on 3/13/2005, 7:08 PM
I agree. I haven't been here for quite awhile (why? I gave up and started using different software for all but mixing, for one thing... ) but that was absolutely the best post I can remember from Mr. Rednroll. Insightful and on the money.
pwppch wrote on 3/13/2005, 10:38 PM

This is all your opinion and interpretation of things. You are entitled to it.

You don't want to accept my simple explanations, that is your choice.

I have nothing more to add.


Weevil wrote on 3/14/2005, 3:54 PM
That’s just quibbling over the exact specifics of the UA issue. It is in no way answering the broader question.

There are only so many times people can hear the ‘trust us we know what we are doing’ line before they start getting very frustrated.

I think a lot of us feel that we have been on rations for a long time now and are getting fed up with making sacrifices.

I don’t mean any of that to sound aggressive. Certainly not saying it is your fault PH. I just think that is where many of us are at.
pwppch wrote on 3/14/2005, 5:17 PM
What would you have me say Weevil?

Weevil wrote on 3/15/2005, 4:47 PM
The short answer is: Some validation or rebuttal of the issues raised in red’s last paragraph. To an outsider it sounds like a pretty accurate appraisal of where things are at right now.

Is there a real appreciation that the outside world has changed dramatically and that perhaps Vegas has been left behind a little? Has the non adoption of key industry technologies significantly weakened Vegas? Have some of the developmental strategies been so focused on building this utopian mousetrap, off somewhere in the future, that they have lost sight of all the new mice that are running around right now?

Is there any recognition at all that some of that may be valid? What are the arguments that convince me otherwise?
pwppch wrote on 3/15/2005, 5:47 PM
I don't really agree with much of what Red said in his last paragraph. Some of his points are interesting. It is all suposition, assumption, and opinion.

Yes, we are the last to the dance sometimes.

Vegas is not a DAW, but a NLE with DAW like features.

Vegas does very well in the markets it is targeted at. It does what it was designed for and intended to do. We are the audio heavey-weight when it comes to Video NLEs. Premiere and FCP can't hold a candle to Vegas in the audio dept..

We know what the other DAWs do. The DAW like functionality that PTools, SONAR, etc provide isn't the target market for Vegas. It can't be, as we don't provide many of the core features that users expect in a DAW.

Some specific points:

ReWire hosting in Vegas would be very limited since Vegas doesn't have a tempo map. It doesn't map well to medium/longer form video creation/editing that Vegas is great at.

ASIO Direct Monitoring is hardly new - accept it seems to some of the users of this forum. Its been around for at least 3 versions of Nuendo, and I believe as far back as Cubase VST. It is a nice technology and provides utility that Vegas could take advantage of. It is definitely on our list of possible enhancments technology wise.

MIDI? Well that lack of tempo maps really gets in the way here. Vegas is a TIME based tool, not a "bar:beat:tick" based tool. (To understand what I mean, look at ACID and how its main time line is different compared to Vegas')

I am not saying that these things - and my others - will never happen in Vegas. They may very well appear in a future version.. I am really just telling you what I have said many times on this forum.

We are what we are and we continually advance our feature set with each new release.


klyon wrote on 3/15/2005, 6:32 PM
This is all well and good. But when I first bought Vegas it *was* an audio application. There was another Vegas that was video (actually, that came a bit later). The distinction is artificial, after the fact (read: after SF had my -- and lots of other audio people's -- money, and in that odd way that musicians love their tools, loyalty) and, at this point, unsupportable, at least in terms of a historical view.
In some ways I hate to complain: the Vegas I bought still does what it did when I bought it. It still works. But I do wish it had continued to grow down the path it was on when I bought it. And that path was audio.
Vegas - The Big Gamble wrote on 3/15/2005, 7:13 PM
I wonder why Sony bothered adding a Measures and Beats ruler setting + metronome & tempo display at all! It's not practical (and the metronome doesn't work properly).

How many video projects have one piece of music that never breaks or changes tempo? Even the average music video with one song still has a tempo break or change of some sort and at the very least you have to allow for the need to cope with that. So I'm sure to all intents and purposes most people just don't use it.

Maybe it's now considered an albatross by the programmers since everybody expects more and the original over-simplified implementation appears to be the reason why Rewire isn't looking likely.

One thing that bothers me.. I'm sure I've seen both the following official suggestions:
"We release a new version when the features are ready"
"We release a new version when it's time and we include only the features that are ready"

Yet we don't know when or what to expect and all we're seeing here is negativity about future hopes. Isn't there *any* positive news about the future of Vegas for audio users? Or are we all just going to drift off to other software?
Weevil wrote on 3/15/2005, 8:55 PM
...Premiere and FCP???

Not trying to put words into your mouth here. But this sounds very much like an admission that Vegas is a video app with good ancillary audio features.

Years ago a bunch of us threw our hands up in horror at this very prospect, but time and again we were assured that that was not the case.

But it sounds like push came to shove...

Can you please clarify this? Otherwise I am left feeling very confused and despondent.